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  1. #1

    Melee's time this time?

    Heya guys. What you guys think, melee's time to be OP this coming expansion?

    And no I don't mean because warriors are bugged/OP atm.

    Share thoughts..

  2. #2
    Field Marshal borgarr's Avatar
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    no class should ever be OP they SHOULD be balanced.. but this is blizzard so that will never happen: (

  3. #3
    melee as all melee? nope. but the usual suspects will be strong/op.
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  4. #4
    Mechagnome
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    I don't have beta access (ofc) but from what I've gathered, indeed, it's their time to shine as casting while moving is removed (for instance Kil'Jaedens Cunning that allows locks to cast shadow bolt/incinerate/malefic grasp while moving is intstead reduced to a 2min CD) and kicks remain the same, and also some spells are getting a cast time, like prayer of mending.

    But again, I can't play beta, so I can't say for sure and things might change too.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by borgarr View Post
    no class should ever be OP they SHOULD be balanced.. but this is blizzard so that will never happen: (
    Balancing too much results in classes being homogenized even further. Balance is thus partially sacrificed to keep a certain level of diversity, which is in my opinion a good choice as long as you don't design a game that's supposed to be balanced around 1v1 duels. Which WoW isn't. Case closed.
    There are too many design flaws in your game. As a result, your customers' game experience may be degraded. Fire or replace the failing developers if you don't want to see this message again.

  6. #6
    It's been a long time since I ran melee cleave. There's a certain enjoyment in just crushing people's faces in without too much effort.

    Warrior/Ret Paladin/Resto Druid, for example.

  7. #7
    Herald of the Titans Matt0193's Avatar
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    Would be nice if Ret wasn't shite for most of the expansion like usual.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  8. #8
    Banned Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    They seriously need to nerf all melee mobility, utility, CC and uptime across the board. You seriously can't just force casters to cast and leave melee with the tools that they had in MoP to combat non casting casters. It makes no sense.

    As much as people hate Wizards, they make up the foundation of the skill of this game. When you let melee become good, the game just becomes a mindless zergfest with shitty melee cleaves running around like wild animals and training a target till its dead. No skill, just mindlessly funneling damage and rotating cool downs and hope things die. Nobody wants that shit.

    Casters being better in most situations is a necessary evil for the good of the game. Casters keep the skill element in the game.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    They seriously need to nerf all melee mobility, utility, CC and uptime across the board. You seriously can't just force casters to cast and leave melee with the tools that they had in MoP to combat non casting casters. It makes no sense.

    As much as people hate Wizards, they make up the foundation of the skill of this game. When you let melee become good, the game just becomes a mindless zergfest with shitty melee cleaves running around like wild animals and training a target till its dead. No skill, just mindlessly funneling damage and rotating cool downs and hope things die. Nobody wants that shit.

    Casters being better in most situations is a necessary evil for the good of the game. Casters keep the skill element in the game.
    I honestly cannot tell if this is a serious post or not.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    As much as people hate Wizards, they make up the foundation of the skill of this game. When you let melee become good, the game just becomes a mindless zergfest with shitty melee cleaves running around like wild animals and training a target till its dead. No skill, just mindlessly funneling damage and rotating cool downs and hope things die. Nobody wants that shit.

    Casters being better in most situations is a necessary evil for the good of the game. Casters keep the skill element in the game.
    While I probably wouldnt've used the same wording, I completely agree with the general sentiment of this.

    Outside of the recent LSD craze - if you lost to a caster comp, like a traditional Shatterplay, MLD, Shadowplay, Spicychicken, etc, it's very often due to them rotating cooldowns, cross-cc'ing and forcing defensive CDs in an almost systematic fashion and OUTPLAYING you. While there might've been times casters could "1shot", it's often due to bad cooldown usage by the person on the receiving end, not the caster class itself being broken.

    For example, I've played with the same Mage for a long time now, and the way he see's Arena is completely different to any melee player I've met. Before the game even starts he has a clear-cut idea of when he will be using CDs, what defensives he'll get with those CDs and what CDs he'll get next time his burst is up. Against Druids, he'll force Barkskin with a deep, Trinket with a deep-orb-cs, Barkskin with the third deep, Iceblock with the 4th, Barkskin with the 5th, trinket again with the 6th, Barkskin on the 7th and he knows on his 8th deep freeze if everything goes perfectly to plan he should be able to 100-0 any Druid ASSUMING that every single deep freeze up to this point has been properly cross-cc'd and executed. If at any point the Druid makes a misplay, trinkets a CC or uses barkskin randomly, we'll know that the number isn't 8, it's now 6 or 4, and that in exactly 1 minute 30 we'll be able to score a kill.

    Now, compare this to any melee cleave at a similar rating. In most situations they can ignore 1, maybe 2 people on the enemy team and just focus their entire attention on 1 person. They can often disregard defensives (or completely ignore them and 1shot casters pre-defensive) and often put out so much offensive pressure they don't really need to worry about enemy damage CDs. It's annoying even thinking about the amount of thought that goes into a KFC, thundercleave, TSG or kittycleave versus the majority of caster comps.

    Now, I'm not saying playing a melee by itself is easier than playing a caster, but I am saying player in a caster comp requires FAR more skill than any melee cleave, purely because of how the comps function - not the individual classes themselves. Proper CD management is almost irrelevant for melee cleaves, whereas it's the most important aspect of caster cleaves.


    tl/dr: Caster comps require far more thought and effort than melee cleaves and I'd much rather melees be completely irrelevant than completely dominant.

  11. #11
    Melee are like the rush decks in HS, easy to gather dust for with good results.

    Casters require more thought and learning curve then melee and have a greater potential. If they keep it like it is on beta, not only do they have a lower potential then melee, they will also be completely irrelevant. Melee does really well in the lower brackets now and gets worse closer to the high end ratings. Why may you ask? Because around those ratings people know how to play their class to their full potential and casters have a slight edge over melee there.

    Going to use random numers to give an example:

    Melee starts with 110 power
    Casters start with 80 power

    Melee gets 1 power per skillpoint and casters get 1.5 power per skillpoint. Skillpoints cap at a potential of 100 points.

    Thus at half your potential melee has 160 power and casters have 155 power, thus close to equal. If we are going to look at the full 100 points of potential:

    Melee with 100 skillpoints and the baseline 110 power will end up with 210 power
    Casters with 100 skillpoints and the baseline 80 power will end up with 230 power.

    Thus casters with the same expertise of their class as the opposing melee will end up being weaker, which is also shown at the lower brackets. Around the mid brackets they are close to equal and around the higher brackets casters surpass melee. If they would let melee dominate higher brackets, casters won't have the lower, mid or higher brackets and they will just die out, while melee is still able to function in the lower, mid and somewhat in the higher brackets like they do now.

    Is there a good solution to this? Maybe, but it will be difficult to find. If casters can't compete I can pretty much say I will be done with the game, since I never enjoyed melee myself. Melee should be able to compete, but their zerg-like nature isn't what I call fun.
    Last edited by Shisui-kun; 2014-07-28 at 12:52 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt0193 View Post
    Would be nice if Ret wasn't shite for most of the expansion like usual.
    They're new 2pc PvP bonus is insane, though. It will really help them out and I'm excited to play one. Vanguards talked about it a while back.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggli View Post
    While I probably wouldnt've used the same wording, I completely agree with the general sentiment of this.

    Outside of the recent LSD craze - if you lost to a caster comp, like a traditional Shatterplay, MLD, Shadowplay, Spicychicken, etc, it's very often due to them rotating cooldowns, cross-cc'ing and forcing defensive CDs in an almost systematic fashion and OUTPLAYING you. While there might've been times casters could "1shot", it's often due to bad cooldown usage by the person on the receiving end, not the caster class itself being broken.

    For example, I've played with the same Mage for a long time now, and the way he see's Arena is completely different to any melee player I've met. Before the game even starts he has a clear-cut idea of when he will be using CDs, what defensives he'll get with those CDs and what CDs he'll get next time his burst is up. Against Druids, he'll force Barkskin with a deep, Trinket with a deep-orb-cs, Barkskin with the third deep, Iceblock with the 4th, Barkskin with the 5th, trinket again with the 6th, Barkskin on the 7th and he knows on his 8th deep freeze if everything goes perfectly to plan he should be able to 100-0 any Druid ASSUMING that every single deep freeze up to this point has been properly cross-cc'd and executed. If at any point the Druid makes a misplay, trinkets a CC or uses barkskin randomly, we'll know that the number isn't 8, it's now 6 or 4, and that in exactly 1 minute 30 we'll be able to score a kill.

    Now, compare this to any melee cleave at a similar rating. In most situations they can ignore 1, maybe 2 people on the enemy team and just focus their entire attention on 1 person. They can often disregard defensives (or completely ignore them and 1shot casters pre-defensive) and often put out so much offensive pressure they don't really need to worry about enemy damage CDs. It's annoying even thinking about the amount of thought that goes into a KFC, thundercleave, TSG or kittycleave versus the majority of caster comps.

    Now, I'm not saying playing a melee by itself is easier than playing a caster, but I am saying player in a caster comp requires FAR more skill than any melee cleave, purely because of how the comps function - not the individual classes themselves. Proper CD management is almost irrelevant for melee cleaves, whereas it's the most important aspect of caster cleaves.


    tl/dr: Caster comps require far more thought and effort than melee cleaves and I'd much rather melees be completely irrelevant than completely dominant.
    I would say they require similar levels of skill, but the way the classes play are just so fundamentally different. Blatantly insulting anyone who doesn't play a caster class (because boomkins are so fucking hard right?) is just childish and asinine at best.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by rasako View Post
    I would say they require similar levels of skill, but the way the classes play are just so fundamentally different. Blatantly insulting anyone who doesn't play a caster class (because boomkins are so fucking hard right?) is just childish and asinine at best.
    Boomkin is way harder to play then you think it might be... but the druid class as a whole is a little bit of an oddball tbh.

  15. #15
    Melees were always nerfed to shit when it hits live (minus one or two broken ones), so I don't see it happening this time.

    On optimal scenario no class should be dominant over others (aka perfectly balanced). In reality perfect balance would never happen but that should be the design goal.

  16. #16
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rasako View Post
    I would say they require similar levels of skill, but the way the classes play are just so fundamentally different. Blatantly insulting anyone who doesn't play a caster class (because boomkins are so fucking hard right?) is just childish and asinine at best.
    I agree with Snuggli's assessment - but I would caveat that Rogues are probably the exception to the generalization. Rogues are so CC dependent for burst that they function as Mages are described, anticipating peels and enemy cooldowns to their cycles, before they have a clean kill window. Which is probably why Rogue/Caster/Healer is almost always the preferred melee in melee/caster/healer comps.
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  17. #17
    Warchief Redpanda's Avatar
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    for a month or 2 then the caster dominance status quo will be back in place. :\ sucks but thats the nature of the game
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    People doing below 200k dps? Ain't nobody got time for that.
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    Why? Why should content be gated behind skill?
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  18. #18
    Banned Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redpanda View Post
    for a month or 2 then the caster dominance status quo will be back in place. :\ sucks but thats the nature of the game
    I would like to know why it "sucks" that casters run the game? I mean do you really want most teams comprising of Ret/DK/MW, War/DK/MW, War/Enh/Holy, Ret/Ret/DK or other "fun" shit like that? Could you imagine if ranged just wasn't viable in a competitive setting? I mean its mindless enough that melee cleaves exist, but just imagine how mindless it is when its a melee cleave vs a melee cleave.

    Just imagine how stupid RBG's would be too. Just think how bad this game could actually be if something like this happened.

    Melees were always nerfed to shit when it hits live (minus one or two broken ones), so I don't see it happening this time.

    On optimal scenario no class should be dominant over others (aka perfectly balanced). In reality perfect balance would never happen but that should be the design goal.
    That's not true. The design goal should be to keep the skilled classes on top. Mindless classes like DK's and Warriors should never be a better choice than something like a Rogue/Feral/WW at the meta level of this game. Mindless classes should just stay good at killing scrubs, but against good players playing actual skilled classes they should struggle to be viable or be completely unviable.

    Mages, Warlocks, Priests (the wizards) Shamans, Druids (nature hybrids) Monks, Hunters and Rogues always need to have a place at the high level part of this game mainly the wizards and the two nature classes. The three classes not listed above are expendable as they don't add any skill element to the game.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I would like to know why it "sucks" that casters run the game? I mean do you really want most teams comprising of Ret/DK/MW, War/DK/MW, War/Enh/Holy, Ret/Ret/DK or other "fun" shit like that? Could you imagine if ranged just wasn't viable in a competitive setting? I mean its mindless enough that melee cleaves exist, but just imagine how mindless it is when its a melee cleave vs a melee cleave.

    Just imagine how stupid RBG's would be too. Just think how bad this game could actually be if something like this happened.



    That's not true. The design goal should be to keep the skilled classes on top. Mindless classes like DK's and Warriors should never be a better choice than something like a Rogue/Feral/WW at the meta level of this game. Mindless classes should just stay good at killing scrubs, but against good players playing actual skilled classes they should struggle to be viable or be completely unviable.

    Mages, Warlocks, Priests (the wizards) Shamans, Druids (nature hybrids) Monks, Hunters and Rogues always need to have a place at the high level part of this game mainly the wizards and the two nature classes. The three classes not listed above are expendable as they don't add any skill element to the game.

    None of your post makes any sense.
    There are no mindless classes, all classes require a certain amount of skill.

    Classes should be balanced, ranged should not dominate the status quo.

  20. #20
    Banned Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flexed View Post
    None of your post makes any sense.
    There are no mindless classes, all classes require a certain amount of skill.

    Classes should be balanced, ranged should not dominate the status quo.
    No they shouldn't. Balance is not a realistic solution, therefore they should try and keep the skilled classes better than the ones that require no skill. Part of the reason MoP pvp sucks is because Warriors exist in the top part of the game. If you replaced Warriors with Rogues, the game would be a lot more enjoyable.

    Warriors and DK's don't require any form of skill. I mean unless of course if you think train mashing a pve rotation 90% of the time in a pvp situation is skill, then I guess it's "skill". Please don't argue as if they do take skill because they don't. A Gladiator Warrior is like the equivalent of a Rival Feral Druid, that's how big the skill difference is. The amount of losers these days that play a Warrior at high ratings and think they're good is sad.

    A good healer can carry a bad Warrior but a "good" Warrior cannot carry a bad healer. Look over that statement a couple of times and let it sink in. You will soon realize what I am trying to say is 100% the truth.

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