Garrisons destorying the economy for professions?

[Deleted]

^because the way you want to play the game destroys the game for everyone who does not want to fly.

Also, OT: I've had all professions maxed on my alts for the last two expansions and still bought stuff from the Auction House because i was too lazy. And you can be sure that many other people will feel the same. I think you are grossly over-estimating the impact profession building in garrisons will have on the economy.

[markos82]

^because the way you want to play the game destroys the game for everyone who does not want to fly.

We all know thats not true. Its same as comparing driving a car, bicycle or walking to work, home, GF and so on..... What i do and how i do it is non of your concern

[Thelxi]

Hm looks like I won't buy another gem ever. Can you also make shoulder/leg enchants with the garrison buildings?

[Deleted]

Hm looks like I won't buy another gem ever. Can you also make shoulder/leg enchants with the garrison buildings?

Yep. As far as I can tell you can make anything with your Garrison provided you have the appropriate building. That being said professions aren't fully implemented yet so they may surprise us.

[Alroxas]

We all know thats not true. Its same as comparing driving a car, bicycle or walking to work, home, GF and so on..... What i do and how i do it is non of your concern

Nope. Case in point. Let's say I like mining nodes using a ground mount, but another player likes to do it using a flying mount. Since flying is faster and less mob intensive, they have an inherent advantage if we are in the same area. Therefore either I'm gimped into not mining or hopping onto a flying mount myself. Don't even get me started on flying speed either!!

[papajohn4]

I haven't specifically checked for DMF trinkets but I suspect you can. I have a LW and Gem building in my Garrison and I can make the max level epic items from those professions, therefore I guess the same to be true with the DMF trinkets.

You should also bear in mind the base ilvl is 620 (Heroic dungeon is 630), you need to upgrade it twice to get to 640.

Those epic rings and necks from jewelcrafting that datamined is the result of 2 upgrades too? Or you are talking about DMF trinkets? Are the upgrades done via materials with daily cooldowns? or they need drops from raids?

[markos82]

Nope. Case in point. Let's say I like mining nodes using a ground mount, but another player likes to do it using a flying mount. Since flying is faster and less mob intensive, they have an inherent advantage if we are in the same area. Therefore either I'm gimped into not mining or hopping onto a flying mount myself. Don't even get me started on flying speed either!!

Again nope. If lets say you are working for a shipping company ( delivering packages in a town ), having a car wont mean you will deliver faster then someone on a bike. Also you are confused about convenience and your preferable type of travel. If a someone on a flying mount aggro a mob then he also need to kill him/drop treat ( considering he starting to mine/pick flower ), same as a someone using a ground mount. No you are not, you are not gimped since that IS YOUR CHOICE, same as a person willing to lock his character at lvl60 and play old raids with other lvl60 character. If I kill that person on PvP he isnt gimped, its his choice that made him an EZ target. Please do, let's start. Also lets start then to talk about time invested in farming flying mounts, gold spent on them and real money on Blizzard store, i bet that time I saved by using my flying mount on max lvl to go from A to B once per day ( shrine to BMAH ) is noting compared to time you "wasted" from getting FP and then from other FP to BMAH....

[Alroxas]

Again nope. If lets say you are working for a shipping company ( delivering packages in a town ), having a car wont mean you will deliver faster then someone on a bike. Also you are confused about convenience and your preferable type of travel. If a someone on a flying mount aggro a mob then he also need to kill him/drop treat ( considering he starting to mine/pick flower ), same as a someone using a ground mount. No you are not, you are not gimped since that IS YOUR CHOICE, same as a person willing to lock his character at lvl60 and play old raids with other lvl60 character. If I kill that person on PvP he isnt gimped, its his choice that made him an EZ target. Please do, let's start. Also lets start then to talk about time invested in farming flying mounts, gold spent on them and real money on Blizzard store, i bet that time I saved by using my flying mount on max lvl to go from A to B once per day ( shrine to BMAH ) is noting compared to time you "wasted" from getting FP and then from other FP to BMAH....

Your logic is shaky. If I have to go 20 miles to deliver a package on standard asphalt roads, it is faster by car then by bike when a car can go 60mph and a bike can only go 6mph.

Math: 20 mi @ 60mph = 20 minutes vs 20 mi @ 6mph = 200 minutes = 3 hours and 20 minutes.

If there are x many nodes in a zone, the faster person can get them before the slower person. Flying allows for direct linear routers whereas ground is limited by cliffs and walls. In order to compete for same nodes, ground mount has to use flying mount to be competitive. This is not counting mob aggro which again, it's easier to lose aggro through flying by going straight up (assuming you haven't been knocked out of your mount).

In regards to your lv 60 example in raids, that's assuming an instanced world where there isn't interference from higher level toons.

The scenario I'm describing is where both would exist in the same zone going after the same thing but one can't "enjoy" their preferred game play because the other player(s) are using more efficient methods. The only recourse is to either adopt the efficient method or not play in that zone.

So to continue using your lv 60 example in PvP. You're right it's the player's choice to be running around at lv 60 and getting ganked by a lv 90. So they can either a) level to 90, b) switch to a lv 90, or c) not play in a contested zone. Thus their enjoyment of playing at a lower level is impacted by someone else's play style.

As for FP, the problem is that you are using current models instead of speculated new FP models which according to blizzard Devi should be more direct and less scenic.

To bring this back to the original OT issue, in an MMO, players can affect other player's enjoyment via their style of game play. And in this particular case, Blizzard devs have seen fit to eliminate flying (at least initially) upon WoD release.

[markos82]

Your logic is shaky. If I have to go 20 miles to deliver a package on standard asphalt roads, it is faster by car then by bike when a car can go 60mph and a bike can only go 6mph.

Math: 20 mi @ 60mph = 20 minutes vs 20 mi @ 6mph = 200 minutes = 3 hours and 20 minutes.

If there are x many nodes in a zone, the faster person can get them before the slower person. Flying allows for direct linear routers whereas ground is limited by cliffs and walls. In order to compete for same nodes, ground mount has to use flying mount to be competitive. This is not counting mob aggro which again, it's easier to lose aggro through flying by going straight up (assuming you haven't been knocked out of your mount).

In regards to your lv 60 example in raids, that's assuming an instanced world where there isn't interference from higher level toons.

The scenario I'm describing is where both would exist in the same zone going after the same thing but one can't "enjoy" their preferred game play because the other player(s) are using more efficient methods. The only recourse is to either adopt the efficient method or not play in that zone.

So to continue using your lv 60 example in PvP. You're right it's the player's choice to be running around at lv 60 and getting ganked by a lv 90. So they can either a) level to 90, b) switch to a lv 90, or c) not play in a contested zone. Thus their enjoyment of playing at a lower level is impacted by someone else's play style.

As for FP, the problem is that you are using current models instead of speculated new FP models which according to blizzard Devi should be more direct and less scenic.

To bring this back to the original OT issue, in an MMO, players can affect other player's enjoyment via their style of game play. And in this particular case, Blizzard devs have seen fit to eliminate flying (at least initially) upon WoD release.

20miles in a city? That is rather hard. can you explain to me why there are more courier using bikes then cars? With a bike i can go around you in circles during rush hour and deliver items much much faster..... and 6mph? Im not an 80 year old to ride bicycle 6mph....

Nods have respawn time, so if you mine one nod and get back to it before it has respawn, then no matter how fast you go it wont help you... Usually nods/herbs are placed in a such way you dont have to go over the mountain to collect next, you go around it and collect 10 more... And if i remember right only druids can pick up herbs while in flight form do if you have/get aggro while mining tough luck....

Again no, you said that flying is reducing/remving fun from the game ( for you ) because you wanna use ground mount. Both are options, same as being lvl60 or lvl90. If I play on PvP realm and gank lvl60 just for fun then what the point.

Same, you can have option to use flying mount or go and farm some other place....

Read one line above...

I dont care for new models and new FP positions when that will remove the key aspect of the game implemented 8 years ago.... And if you agree with that lie (more direct less scenic ) then good for you, I don't think ppl will enjoy playing next 2 years on a flat surface that looks like it was designed by someone with a total lack knowledge how to design maps/areas....

Again, its a fcking lie. Nods respawn fast, world PvP combat is dead, not due to flying but due to Blizzards idiotic decision to create 100s of realms and more then half are close to empty or to allow creation of disbalanced realms where on 10 horde comes 1 alliance. For PvP you have BGs, Arenas and so on...

[Djuntas]

We'll we shall see. Maybe good to flip away on AH now. Personally Im not bothered, can barely think Id wanna spend anything, sitting on 400k gold atm.

[Deleted]

I haven't specifically checked for DMF trinkets but I suspect you can. I have a LW and Gem building in my Garrison and I can make the max level epic items from those professions, therefore I guess the same to be true with the DMF trinkets.

You should also bear in mind the base ilvl is 620 (Heroic dungeon is 630), you need to upgrade it twice to get to 640.

How? I can't even upgrade my buildings to tier 3 (except the Town Hall), and even when I upgrade them to level 2, NPCs in the buildings disappear. How is it that you can already have tier 3 buildings?

[Alroxas]

20miles in a city? That is rather hard. can you explain to me why there are more courier using bikes then cars? With a bike i can go around you in circles during rush hour and deliver items much much faster..... and 6mph? Im not an 80 year old to ride bicycle 6mph....

20 miles is not a long distance when you consider most towns (not big cities like New York or LA). In fact your first example said towns and furthermore, the example I used was 20 miles on asphalt where a car could go 60mph where as a bike could only go 6mph. But let's say you got a fast biker, (someone from the Tour de France like Greg LeMond who in 1989 was able to go 33 mph over 15.22 mi), they still couldn't travel faster than a car going 60mph along a stretch of road length of 20 miles.

Secondly, I never said you were an 80 year old nor did I imply it. The average cyclist typically averages ~9 mph over reasonable distances. I went with a lower number since 20 miles is a bit lengthy to go on a bike.

Nods have respawn time, so if you mine one nod and get back to it before it has respawn, then no matter how fast you go it wont help you... Usually nods/herbs are placed in a such way you dont have to go over the mountain to collect next, you go around it and collect 10 more... And if i remember right only druids can pick up herbs while in flight form do if you have/get aggro while mining tough luck....

True, mining nodes do have a respawn timer, but I was saying that in a fresh zone (before respawning happens) two people (one on a flying mount, one on a ground mount) with only X number of nodes (let's say 20 nodes scattered in a fairly sized zone) who are competing against each other for as many nodes as they can farm (before respawning), the one on the flying mount has the advantage. The only way that the ground mount person can compete is to either use a flying mount themselves or mine in a different zone (aka not play in that zone). This is not an unreasonable expectation.

As for herbing while in flight, you might want to consider the sky golem which does allow you to mine/herb without dismounting. Also since we're focused on WoD (and not just Mists), note that the Stables garrison building does offer you a perk at lv 2 which allows you to "interact" with the environment without dismounting. Effectively give you the ability to mine/herb without ever dismounting.

Again no, you said that flying is reducing/remving fun from the game ( for you ) because you wanna use ground mount. Both are options, same as being lvl60 or lvl90. If I play on PvP realm and gank lvl60 just for fun then what the point.

I never said that flying is "reducing/removing fun from the game", I merely stated as an example that if someone wanted to pursue an activity in a less than efficient manner that they would be disadvantaged if there's another player there using the more effective method. And that they would either have to adapt to (aka use the more efficient method) or move to another zone. Either way, it affects the original player.

To reiterate my example regarding your PvP, yes you can gank a lv 60 from lv 90 so what does the lv 60 do? They can either a) level up to lv 90 to fight you, b) switch to a lv 90 to fight you, or c) go play somewhere else (i.e. a zone that is not contested, or no PvP allowed). I'm not talking about your actions but rather the reaction that the player you just ganked can do.

I dont care for new models and new FP positions when that will remove the key aspect of the game implemented 8 years ago.... And if you agree with that lie (more direct less scenic ) then good for you, I don't think ppl will enjoy playing next 2 years on a flat surface that looks like it was designed by someone with a total lack knowledge how to design maps/areas...
Again, its a fcking lie. Nods respawn fast, world PvP combat is dead, not due to flying but due to Blizzards idiotic decision to create 100s of realms and more then half are close to empty or to allow creation of disbalanced realms where on 10 horde comes 1 alliance. For PvP you have BGs, Arenas and so on...

First, you should really keep a civil tone. Dipping into vulgar language doesn't really help your cause. If anything it makes you look more foolish. Secondly, it does sound like you really don't like where WoW is headed and if that's the case why do you care? Obviously neither I nor anyone else here can convince you and your replies seem to indicate an unwillingness to look at any other position other than your own.

Last point, I guess you haven't read up on how Ashran is supposedly balance to a 1:1 ratio of horde:alliance due to the tech they are using. Then again, you didn't consider Sky Golems either...

[markos82]

20 miles is not a long distance when you consider most towns (not big cities like New York or LA). In fact your first example said towns and furthermore, the example I used was 20 miles on asphalt where a car could go 60mph where as a bike could only go 6mph. But let's say you got a fast biker, (someone from the Tour de France like Greg LeMond who in 1989 was able to go 33 mph over 15.22 mi), they still couldn't travel faster than a car going 60mph along a stretch of road length of 20 miles.

Secondly, I never said you were an 80 year old nor did I imply it. The average cyclist typically averages ~9 mph over reasonable distances. I went with a lower number since 20 miles is a bit lengthy to go on a bike.

You do realize that a shipping company in a large city, like NY doesnt have only one point of delivery ( place where they keep stuff ). Also you do forget that a city like NY have huge lines and a person on bike can go right pass you?

6mph is 10km/h take walks and average 8km/h over a 90min time. When i ride my bicycle I can average 18km/h or more over the same time. That is nothing special....

True, mining nodes do have a respawn timer, but I was saying that in a fresh zone (before respawning happens) two people (one on a flying mount, one on a ground mount) with only X number of nodes (let's say 20 nodes scattered in a fairly sized zone) who are competing against each other for as many nodes as they can farm (before respawning), the one on the flying mount has the advantage. The only way that the ground mount person can compete is to either use a flying mount themselves or mine in a different zone (aka not play in that zone). This is not an unreasonable expectation.

As for herbing while in flight, you might want to consider the sky golem which does allow you to mine/herb without dismounting. Also since we're focused on WoD (and not just Mists), note that the Stables garrison building does offer you a perk at lv 2 which allows you to "interact" with the environment without dismounting. Effectively give you the ability to mine/herb without ever dismounting.

Again that is not the part of the problem. If we start from point A and go in the same direction then ofc someone on a flying mount would be faster... But I don't see a problem in which you cant use also a flying mount considering the goal is to collect as much as stacks as you can. So if you can collect 50 stacks in one hour by ground mount and earn XYZ amount of gold and 100 by flying mount earning 2x that amount than logic says go with the flying mount...

Again, i dont see a problem with that. Blizzards has decided to remove flying at start so we are going to be grounded for many months. In that time 90% of players will seen everything in WoD area and 95% will stop farming mats...

I never said that flying is "reducing/removing fun from the game", I merely stated as an example that if someone wanted to pursue an activity in a less than efficient manner that they would be disadvantaged if there's another player there using the more effective method. And that they would either have to adapt to (aka use the more efficient method) or move to another zone. Either way, it affects the original player.

To reiterate my example regarding your PvP, yes you can gank a lv 60 from lv 90 so what does the lv 60 do? They can either a) level up to lv 90 to fight you, b) switch to a lv 90 to fight you, or c) go play somewhere else (i.e. a zone that is not contested, or no PvP allowed). I'm not talking about your actions but rather the reaction that the player you just ganked can do.

But that is their choice, its not my fault that someone wants to spend additional time doing same things I do twice as fast... If you have to chose between earning 100$ in 1 hour of 50$ in same amount of time ( doing the same job only with not as productive machine ) and you still chose 50$ then good for you, but that is not smart move.

Same goes to person on ground mount. He can hop on his 310% speed mount and I do not have any advantage over him...

First, you should really keep a civil tone. Dipping into vulgar language doesn't really help your cause. If anything it makes you look more foolish. Secondly, it does sound like you really don't like where WoW is headed and if that's the case why do you care? Obviously neither I nor anyone else here can convince you and your replies seem to indicate an unwillingness to look at any other position other than your own.

Last point, I guess you haven't read up on how Ashran is supposedly balance to a 1:1 ratio of horde:alliance due to the tech they are using. Then again, you didn't consider Sky Golems either...

My tone is civil i just gave you key points and I never used bad language.... My points are that i spent years getting flying mounts in order to enjoy then, I spend hundreds of thousands gold on them as well ( 290k for Mimirons' head for example ) thus I spent my time on nothing if they decide to remove them. Some people spent real money ( Blizzard earned millions of dollars selling shiny pixels that can fly ) and you say im unwilling to look other positions... Yeah right...

Like they "solved" empty servers/realms issue by merging them.. good for me when I started to play on my realm I could see 100s of players in SW, before merge 5 and now 7.

[Mteq]

the influence will be minimal at best. for example, the blacksmith work orders create 1 bar per 24 hours, while blacksmith can make an infinite amount of bars. besides that, if you want to create the best quality of gear as a blacksmith, you need items that come from both alchemy and skinning, and crafting those at 1 per day can be done and make you self sufficient (on a single character), but it also makes it slow as hell.

coming this expansion, i'll be mining my ass off, make as many bars for my gear that i need, sell any exces and buy the other stuff of the AH. the amount of patience required is to damn high. furthermore, there are more profitable/optimal small buildings then a tannery and alchemy lab besides my forge to make it more efficient.

i'm even doubting i'll be getting a forge when i'm a blacksmith, although the next to free BS plans are nice i guess.

[Alroxas]

You do realize that a shipping company in a large city, like NY doesnt have only one point of delivery ( place where they keep stuff ). Also you do forget that a city like NY have huge lines and a person on bike can go right pass you?

6mph is 10km/h take walks and average 8km/h over a 90min time. When i ride my bicycle I can average 18km/h or more over the same time. That is nothing special....

Again, I think you're missing my point that 18km/h is still slower than 60mph (~96km/h). Specificially when we reduce all other factors (i.e. no traffic, no pedestrians, etc.) to where it's just a 20 mi (~32 km) stretch of road. Which funny enough you support in your next statement:

If we start from point A and go in the same direction then ofc someone on a flying mount would be faster... But I don't see a problem in which you cant use also a flying mount considering the goal is to collect as much as stacks as you can. So if you can collect 50 stacks in one hour by ground mount and earn XYZ amount of gold and 100 by flying mount earning 2x that amount than logic says go with the flying mount...

Again, i dont see a problem with that. Blizzards has decided to remove flying at start so we are going to be grounded for many months. In that time 90% of players will seen everything in WoD area and 95% will stop farming mats...

Which indeed highlights the issue I was trying to raise: you either have to adapt to the efficient method (aka Flying) or chose not to participate in that zone.

But that is their choice, its not my fault that someone wants to spend additional time doing same things I do twice as fast... If you have to chose between earning 100$ in 1 hour of 50$ in same amount of time ( doing the same job only with not as productive machine ) and you still chose 50$ then good for you, but that is not smart move.

True, it is their choice but what I'm saying is that your choice does impact them either directly or indirectly. First, lets be clear that I'm not saying you should change the way you do things. What I'm saying is that by impacting others through your actions (or inactions) it does influence other players and more specifically their behaviors.

I realize this gets way off topic, but it's similar to VP caping as a result of the VP upgrade system. Because most raiders will spend their VP to upgrade their gear, it's now a standard to upgrade all your relevant gear to 4/4 (relevant gear defined as gear that you won't likely replace soon). Thus raiders (even entry level ones) should VP grind (even if they don't like it) so that they can max out upgrades for gear because otherwise they are not just hurting themselves but bringing down the raid team as well.

My tone is civil i just gave you key points and I never used bad language....

Never is such an absolute term but ok:

Again, its a fcking lie. Nods respawn fast...

Anyway moving on...

My points are that i spent years getting flying mounts in order to enjoy then, I spend hundreds of thousands gold on them as well ( 290k for Mimirons' head for example ) thus I spent my time on nothing if they decide to remove them. Some people spent real money ( Blizzard earned millions of dollars selling shiny pixels that can fly ) and you say im unwilling to look other positions... Yeah right...

From what I understand you can still use the flying mounts they just aren't flying or perhaps it's better to say that they are flying just at ground altitudes. Additionally, it's not like you can't use the flying mounts that you have obtained in other places like on Azeroth... granted all the content will be over in "New" (or should it be called "Old") Draenor. Additionally, it's not to say that Blizzard might decide to bring back flying in Draenor at some point down the line (whether that's 6.1 or 7.0).

Like they "solved" empty servers/realms issue by merging them.. good for me when I started to play on my realm I could see 100s of players in SW, before merge 5 and now 7.

Server merges are fairly standard in MMOs when there's less people playing the game as a whole but without knowing the technical limitations of WoW servers it's difficult to say exactly why some server merges have taken place. For instance, it could be that Blizzard is looking at maximum capacity limitations for merging servers which is approx. 5,000 players online at the same time in the world server (i.e. not in raids or dungeons or any other instanced zone) - Source regarding 5k limit: CtR Ep 150. Then again it could be a completely different metric.

As for their effectiveness, that's a different topic all together.

[Deleted]

Are you guys telling me there are actually people playing this game who dont allready have every profession maxed on their account?

[thurizas]

Sorry to butt into your thread but you may be able to answer a question for me. Do you still need a miner to smelt ore?

My druid on beta is a miner/herbalist, and while he has found scrolls to learn mining and herbalism to 700; he has yet learned how to smelt ore. Before the character wipe last weekend, he had 4-5 stacks of true iron ore and 4-5 stacks of dark rock ore. Thankfully ore now stacks to 200.

On a side note --

prior to the character wipe, both my druid (miner/herbalist) and rogue (herbalist/alchemist); and both had a level 2 garrison with a level 2 mine. Running through the mine I was able to mine ~50 of each ore on my rogue and ~100 of each ore on my druid.

I was getting XP for each node that I tapped as well, and as a side note because I had no mining on my rogue all nodes were orange and gave about 1000 xp per harvest. Also nodes seemed to respawn about the same rate as in the open world, so I could log in, run through the mines start some missions, go out and quest for about an hour and come back and the nodes respawned.

N.B. -- this is beta and everything is subject to change.

[Kezmaefele]

So I have been playing around with Garrisons in the beta, in particular the profession buildings. From what I can tell the profession buildings allow you to craft pretty much anything you can craft if you had the profession yourself. So with 3 profession buildings, plus the 2 on my character I can effectively have 5 professions. That is not to mention the fact I can obtain ore and herbs from my garden/mine (albeit limited). So can I effectively have all professions across two characters now? If so would do I need to go to the AH anymore? Have I missed something?

First of all in your thread title you used the world "destroy". I doubt the economy will be "destroyed".

But it is a concern if you are a seller on the AH. How much will the economy be affected? I don't know. I'm not sure anyone knows right now.

Players have had 10 years to level multiple toons to cover all professions. We had the Sunsong Ranch in MOP and I had the same concerns about the economy. But still I keep throwing things up on the AH and people keep buying them.

I think if you are smart with your Garrison you can use it to your advantage early in the xpac to make some major bank. After that how will things shake out? I don't know. My guess is there will still be plenty of ways for smart, resourceful and ambitious players to make gold on the AH no matter how easy it is to get resources.

[Deleted]

Those epic rings and necks from jewelcrafting that datamined is the result of 2 upgrades too? Or you are talking about DMF trinkets? Are the upgrades done via materials with daily cooldowns? or they need drops from raids?

It applies across the board. The epic stuff of all professions starts at 620, then can be upgraded twice to hit 640 as far as I can tell.

How? I can't even upgrade my buildings to tier 3 (except the Town Hall), and even when I upgrade them to level 2, NPCs in the buildings disappear. How is it that you can already have tier 3 buildings?

My buildings are all tier 2 with the exception of the town hall. I am playing Alliance, I think the horde ones are all bugged. On the Alliance side the NPCs in my professions buildings allow me to make any of the WoD items as far as I can tell.

[Alroxas]

It applies across the board. The epic stuff of all professions starts at 620, then can be upgraded twice to hit 640 as far as I can tell.

Datamined WoWHead seems to indicate crafted epics at 640 Hexweave Armor which can be upgraded to 655 via Expert Hexweave Dye then to 665 via Master Hexweave Dye.

Both the expert and master dyes do require a "secret ingredient" (Shadow Dew for expert, Ancient Moonwillow Leaf for master) which also happen to be used in other professions (alchemy, JC, and BS). Datamine has not revealed where these are found/harvested.