Fast-food workers, "We Are Worth More!"

[Daelak]

1. Yes they will. There's a reason why businesses have been hiking prices every time wages increase.
2. Your first graph's sources? "Bureau of Labor Statistics and authors' calculations"
3. You linked graphs with little to do with your argument. Just because something should doesn't mean it does.

No they don't. There is no correlation between the minimum wage increases and inflation since the MW was instituted in 1938. It literally has no affect on inflation.

[Aeno]

Why am I listening to someone who says a 2 trillion dollar US industry is collapsing? Great so a rust belt retiree thinks he knows what the fuck is going on in global economics versus the host of economists who state that massive public investment and spending into 21st century technology will bring untold trillions for future private ventures that will originate in the US.

Again, for someone to say US manufacturing is collapsing and the reason why manufacturing went overseas because of the unions obviously doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about.

Yes we can tax ourselves out of debt. You tax the wealthy, use the increased tax revenues to help subsidize new technologies and R&D, upgrade infrastructure, give more disposable income to the poorest in our society so they can purchase more goods, and voila you have a 10-12% yearly increase in GDP vaporizing our deficit and debt within 10-20 years.

The strength of our collective efforts (government) can and has achieved incredible amount of prosperity. Stop ignoring post WW2 history.

Dear lord. Taxing the wealthy and the wealthy alone is not only un-American, but almost Socialist. By the way, the wealthy don't own $17 trillion for our entire debt, it is not entirely their responsibility, and you can only tax it all from them if you taxed 100%...which is, again, illegal and would just cause them to avoid the law as they are now. I think it's 48% income tax for $250,000+ at the moment, and around 5% for state taxes? Generally.

Oh yeah. The wealthy pay most of our taxes already, by the way. 1/3rd of Americans pay Income Tax. And yet we still generate so much revenue. HMMMMMM

And we only achieved prosperity BECAUSE of World War II. Not anything after it. Go figure.

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No they don't. There is no correlation between the minimum wage increases and inflation since the MW was instituted in 1938. It literally has no affect on inflation.

Prove it? Kennedy even said in his retort against businesses raising prices because of rising wages that it was foolish and it should not happen. And yes I mean business price increases. Not inflation. It's not natural because it never was from the start.

[Slaskra]

No they don't. There is no correlation between the minimum wage increases and inflation since the MW was instituted in 1938. It literally has no affect on inflation.

Only half true. Wage changes for any reason affect inflation, the fed just has more influence AND is capable of having a more immediate impact...hence the whole reason for monetary policy...but even their tinkering is based directly on the economic impacts of wage movements.

[Daelak]

Dear lord. Taxing the wealthy and the wealthy alone is not only un-American, but almost Socialist. By the way, the wealthy don't own $17 trillion for our entire debt, it is not entirely their responsibility, and you can only tax it all from them if you taxed 100%...which is, again, illegal and would just cause them to avoid the law as they are now. I think it's 48% income tax for $250,000+ at the moment, and around 5% for state taxes? Generally.

Oh yeah. The wealthy pay most of our taxes already, by the way. 1/3rd of Americans pay Income Tax. And yet we still generate so much revenue. HMMMMMM

And we only achieved prosperity BECAUSE of World War II. Not anything after it. Go figure.

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Prove it? Kennedy even said in his retort against businesses raising prices because of rising wages that it was foolish and it should not happen. And yes I mean business price increases. Not inflation. It's not natural because it never was from the start.

No, it is 36% for 250k+. You don't pay down the debt with the increased taxation from the wealthy, you pay down the debt with the double digit GDP growth, hence the reason for a 100 trillion dollar infrastructure/energy investment the US needs to do NOW in order for us to be the captain of this ship called Earth.

Higher GDP growth = Higher tax revenues due to increased transactions and production = budget surplus = paying down of the debt.

The debt is essentially irrelevant. Global investors (institutional, public, private) don't care about it because they know the potential GDP output and profits would make 17 trillion look like chump change. People like yourself and Walkingdude are just negative nancys who want the US to become a 2nd tier nation, not a global powerhouse that we are.


Minimum wage:



Inflation:



Next question.

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Only half true. Wage changes for any reason affect inflation, the fed just has more influence AND is capable of having a more immediate impact...hence the whole reason for monetary policy...but even their tinkering is based directly on the economic impacts of wage movements.

Look at my graphs above. There is no correlation between minimum wage increases and inflation. None.

[Slaskra]

Look at my graphs above. There is no correlation between minimum wage increases and inflation. None.

Because there isn't supposed to be. Minimum wages aren't the only wages in the economy, but there is definitely an impact.

There is a strong correlation between interest rates and inflation. And the primary influencing factor of interest rates is how the fed anticipates wage changes will affect the economy.

I'm not in the same vein of people arguing that the inflation caused by increasing the minimum wage will be a catastrophe - I accept inflation as part of a healthy economy. But arguing that changes in the minimum wage have no impact on inflation is tantamount to arguing that humans have no effect on global warming.

[Aeno]

No, it is 36% for 250k+. You don't pay down the debt with the increased taxation from the wealthy, you pay down the debt with the double digit GDP growth, hence the reason for a 100 trillion dollar infrastructure/energy investment the US needs to do NOW in order for us to be the captain of this ship called Earth.

Higher GDP growth = Higher tax revenues due to increased transactions and production = budget surplus = paying down of the debt.

The debt is essentially irrelevant. Global investors (institutional, public, private) don't care about it because they know the potential GDP output and profits would make 17 trillion look like chump change. People like yourself and Walkingdude are just negative nancys who want the US to become a 2nd tier nation, not a global powerhouse that we are.


Minimum wage:

*Snip*

Inflation:

*Snip*

Next question.

It's hilarious, because you mention the debt, then you dismiss it as irrelevant. Classy.

Also, the US hasn't been the economic world power it once was because of its debt and mandatory spending. Assuming otherwise just proves how little you understand about money. And do you mind not posting different graphs just because I called you out on one set of graphs? I know the trends, thanks.

You're almost a Wall Street looney with your "Growth" fixation. You don't need growth alone to aid an economy. Otherwise, focusing on "more" alone just leads to Depression(1928) after Depression (2008). No country sees the need to cash out on the debt we owe to them because they don't see the need. China on the other hand...a growing Great Power that may just do that.

[Punisher069]

But arguing that changes in the minimum wage have no impact on inflation is tantamount to arguing that humans have no effect on global warming.

That is a good point. They do affect inflation but not in such a major way that some people are arguing.

[Daelak]

Because there isn't supposed to be. Minimum wages aren't the only wages in the economy, but there is definitely an impact.

There is a strong correlation between interest rates and inflation. And the primary influencing factor of interest rates is how the fed anticipates wage changes will affect the economy.

I'm not in the same vein of people arguing that the inflation caused by increasing the minimum wage will be a catastrophe - I accept inflation as part of a healthy economy. But arguing that changes in the minimum wage have no impact on inflation is tantamount to arguing that humans have no effect on global warming.

Interest rates:



Inflation:

[Aeno]

Interest rates:

*snip*

Hilariously, despite your lack of a discussion and preference for posting pictures, he's correct. The Federal Reserve controls inflation and deflation (somewhat) through Interest and Discount rates.

[Slaskra]

Interest rates:

Inflation:

Comparing 1-year data points over 25 years to 10-year data points over 100 years might be why you're having some trouble seeing the relationship.

[Daelak]

It's hilarious, because you mention the debt, then you dismiss it as irrelevant. Classy.

Also, the US hasn't been the economic world power it once was because of its debt and mandatory spending. Assuming otherwise just proves how little you understand about money. And do you mind not posting different graphs just because I called you out on one set of graphs? I know the trends, thanks.

You're almost a Wall Street looney with your "Growth" fixation. You don't need growth alone to aid an economy. Otherwise, focusing on "more" alone just leads to Depression(1928) after Depression (2008). No country sees the need to cash out on the debt we owe to them because they don't see the need. China on the other hand...a growing Great Power that may just do that.

It is irrelevant, if it was relevant our treasury notes rates would be around the Argentinian or Greek rates, but guess what economic genius, they are not, so are you going to tell me now that global investors are a bunch of liberal ivory tower elites that don't know how to balance a checkbook like the hometown conservatives that want a farcical "balanced budget"??????

Yes the US position in the world has everything to do with the public spending done during and immediately after WW2.



All we need is a large investor (the federal government) to eat the majority of startup risk for 21st century technologies that no other private equity firm or private investor wants to do because the US federal government, unfortunately for you, can't fail and won't disappear anytime soon.

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Hilariously, despite your lack of a discussion and preference for posting pictures, he's correct. The Federal Reserve controls inflation and deflation (somewhat) through Interest and Discount rates.

And that has anything to do with wages how?

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Comparing 1-year data points over 25 years to 10-year data points over 100 years might be why you're having some trouble seeing the relationship.

Show me the relationship. Show me how wages affect inflation. That's all I want to see. I have shown you proof that it does not.

[Aeno]

It is irrelevant, if it was relevant our treasury notes rates would be around the Argentinian or Greek rates, but guess what economic genius, they are not, so are you going to tell me now that global investors are a bunch of liberal ivory tower elites that don't know how to balance a checkbook like the hometown conservatives that want a farcical "balanced budget"??????

Yes the US position in the world has everything to do with the public spending done during and immediately after WW2.

*snip*

All we need is a large investor (the federal government) to eat the majority of startup risk for 21st century technologies that no other private equity firm or private investor wants to do because the US federal government, unfortunately for you, can't fail and won't disappear anytime soon.

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And that has anything to do with wages how?

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Show me the relationship. Show me how wages affect inflation. That's all I want to see. I have shown you proof that it does not.

And just because nobody collects on our debt doesn't mean it isn't important. Don't trivialize it. Or are you saying that all debt is trivial, including any you accrue personally or any other person? Because that would be comical.

Most spending just after WWII was the signing of military contracts with manufacturers of weapons for...wait for it...the military "to fight Russia" during the Cold War. And the remnants of WWII contracts.

The government is not a business. It should not assume economic risk more than it already has. If you're saying that an entity should assume risk for an economic sector, then obviously it isn't worth the risk, as it has risk. This isn't a company. It's the government.

I don't see where I root for the government to disappear though. Classy strawman.

Oh yeah, and you haven't proven snot. All you did was shove graphs in our faces, PROVING THAT THEY MUST BE RIGHT AS THEY ARE FROM INTERNET SITES, and showing me your god-like reasoning skills. Except you haven't.

[Daelak]

Daelak, all you've done is insult people and provide charts from a variety of sources that are either garbage due to their source or have no context behind them. You call me an idiot for saying the manufacturing industry is dying. Did you secure your helmet today? It's not an opinion, manufacturing jobs are on the decline. Who's bonkers?

Here's the first link from Google: http://economics.yale.edu/sites/defa...9-oct-2013.pdf

A paper from Yale that not only establishes a massive decline in manufacturing jobs (something I claimed) but a direct correlation to China (something I also claimed earlier when Endus was preaching his utopian dream). If you're going to insult people and plaster the forum with charts you obviously don't understand, do us all a favor and make it clear you don't want to be taken seriously.

From my link from an earlier reply to you:

In 2013, manufacturers contributed $2.08 trillion to the economy, up from $2.03 trillion in 2012. This was 12.5 percent of GDP. For every $1.00 spent in manufacturing, another $1.32 is added to the economy, the highest multiplier effect of any economic sector.1
Manufacturing supports an estimated 17.4 million jobs in the United States—about one in six private-sector jobs. More than 12 million Americans (or 9 percent of the workforce) are employed directly in manufacturing.2
In 2013, the average manufacturing worker in the United States earned $77,506 annually, including pay and benefits. The average worker in all industries earned $62,546.3
Manufacturers in the United States are the most productive in the world, far surpassing the worker productivity of any other major manufacturing economy, leading to higher wages and living standards.4
Manufacturers in the United States perform two-thirds of all private-sector R&D in the nation, driving more innovation than any other sector.5
Taken alone, manufacturing in the United States would be the 8th largest economy in the world.6

Source:

http://www.nam.org/Statistics-And-Da...g/Landing.aspx


You are lying.

[Aeno]

From my link from an earlier reply to you:



Source:

http://www.nam.org/Statistics-And-Da...g/Landing.aspx


You are lying.

"The NAM is the powerful voice of the manufacturing community and the leading advocate for a policy agenda that helps manufacturers compete in the global economy and create jobs across the United States."

An organization that is pushing for United States dominance and forges numbers to create enthusiasm in readers? No waaaaaaaaaaaay.

Sauce: http://www.nam.org/About-Us/About-th...sociation.aspx

JUST TO PROVE IT EDIT: In 2013, manufacturers contributed $2.08 trillion to the economy, up from $2.03 trillion in 2012. This was 12.5 percent of GDP. For every $1.00 spent in manufacturing, another $1.32 is added to the economy, the highest multiplier effect of any economic sector.1
Manufacturing supports an estimated 17.4 million jobs in the United States—about one in six private-sector jobs. More than 12 million Americans (or 9 percent of the workforce) are employed directly in manufacturing.2
In 2013, the average manufacturing worker in the United States earned $77,506 annually, including pay and benefits. The average worker in all industries earned $62,546.3
Manufacturers in the United States are the most productive in the world, far surpassing the worker productivity of any other major manufacturing economy, leading to higher wages and living standards.4
Manufacturers in the United States perform two-thirds of all private-sector R&D in the nation, driving more innovation than any other sector.5
Taken alone, manufacturing in the United States would be the 8th largest economy in the world.6

Has nothing to do with the actual workers, much less those that aren't IN A UNION OR THAT DON'T WORK FULL-TIME. Typical fucking propaganda.

[Endus]

Lets not forget the increased price or products. I hope none of you thinks that the corporations are going just suck it up. Instead of giving these poor benighted helpless souls a little money via taxes and social programs we will give it to them via increased prices.

We've gone over, multiple times this thread, about how wage increases can not lead to net price increases relatively to purchasing power. If wages double, and the price of a Big Mac increases by 10% as a result, people can still buy more Big Macs than they could before the shift. And that's what's relevant.

It can not work out any other way. Mathematically impossible, unless you introduce an additional factor (and when you do, that new factor is to blame, not the wage increase).

No they don't. There is no correlation between the minimum wage increases and inflation since the MW was instituted in 1938. It literally has no affect on inflation.

This isn't quite true. What happens is that the fed manages inflation rates, actively. It doesn't have complete control, but it does have some. If inflation is occurring "naturally", it won't have to tweak the numbers, but if inflation is lagging or stopping, it can (and does) push more money into the money supply to keep inflation going.

The numbers you're linking are a managed inflation rate, not a natural one. Wage increases will lead to more natural inflation, but not necessary real inflation, since the Federal Reserve can just ease off if need be.

It's like if you're filling a new reservoir with a natural lake. In the spring, when the snow melts, inflow's gonna spike. But you can always open the sluice gates in the dam a bit and maintain the water levels, rather than letting it overflow.

[Daelak]

And just because nobody collects on our debt doesn't mean it isn't important. Don't trivialize it. Or are you saying that all debt is trivial, including any you accrue personally or any other person? Because that would be comical.

Most spending just after WWII was the signing of military contracts with manufacturers of weapons for...wait for it...the military "to fight Russia" during the Cold War. And the remnants of WWII contracts.

The government is not a business. It should not assume economic risk more than it already has. If you're saying that an entity should assume risk for an economic sector, then obviously it isn't worth the risk, as it has risk. This isn't a company. It's the government.

I don't see where I root for the government to disappear though. Classy strawman.

Oh yeah, and you haven't proven snot. All you did was shove graphs in our faces, PROVING THAT THEY MUST BE RIGHT AS THEY ARE FROM INTERNET SITES, and showing me your god-like reasoning skills. Except you haven't.

It isn't important. If it was important our bonds (OUR DEBT) rates would be skyrocketing due to fears of the US defaulting. We are the most risk-averse investment on the planet. Personal debt is irrelevant in this conversation because it has no relevant to the operating budgets of the world's largest economy and government.

You got a source for that claim? Or you just making up random bullshit again?

The government is a whole lot fucking more than a business. Our public investment spending can lead the entire global economy out of recessions. Our collective investment into our own infrastructure after WW2 coupled with subsidized housing and education for veterans led to the largest, most prosperous middle class the entire world has seen. The US government can assume the risk that no other entity on the planet can, like a 100 trillion dollar commitment to renewable energy, biotechnology, medical science, space exploration, and you are of the opinion we shouldn't because your scared of a fucking default? Read a book, you don't live in some po-dunk middle tier country, you live in the strongest, most sophisticated country in the world. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

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"The NAM is the powerful voice of the manufacturing community and the leading advocate for a policy agenda that helps manufacturers compete in the global economy and create jobs across the United States."

An organization that is pushing for United States dominance and forges numbers to create enthusiasm in readers? No waaaaaaaaaaaay.

Sauce: http://www.nam.org/About-Us/About-th...sociation.aspx

JUST TO PROVE IT EDIT: In 2013, manufacturers contributed $2.08 trillion to the economy, up from $2.03 trillion in 2012. This was 12.5 percent of GDP. For every $1.00 spent in manufacturing, another $1.32 is added to the economy, the highest multiplier effect of any economic sector.1
Manufacturing supports an estimated 17.4 million jobs in the United States—about one in six private-sector jobs. More than 12 million Americans (or 9 percent of the workforce) are employed directly in manufacturing.2
In 2013, the average manufacturing worker in the United States earned $77,506 annually, including pay and benefits. The average worker in all industries earned $62,546.3
Manufacturers in the United States are the most productive in the world, far surpassing the worker productivity of any other major manufacturing economy, leading to higher wages and living standards.4
Manufacturers in the United States perform two-thirds of all private-sector R&D in the nation, driving more innovation than any other sector.5
Taken alone, manufacturing in the United States would be the 8th largest economy in the world.6

Has nothing to do with the actual workers, much less those that aren't IN A UNION OR THAT DON'T WORK FULL-TIME. Typical fucking propaganda.

Typical propaganda that American workers are the most productive in the world? Are you a communist sympathizer?

[Aeno]

It isn't important. If it was important our bonds (OUR DEBT) rates would be skyrocketing due to fears of the US defaulting. We are the most risk-averse investment on the planet. Personal debt is irrelevant in this conversation because it has no relevant to the operating budgets of the world's largest economy and government.

You got a source for that claim? Or you just making up random bullshit again?

The government is a whole lot fucking more than a business. Our public investment spending can lead the entire global economy out of recessions. Our collective investment into our own infrastructure after WW2 coupled with subsidized housing and education for veterans led to the largest, most prosperous middle class the entire world has seen. The US government can assume the risk that no other entity on the planet can, like a 100 trillion dollar commitment to renewable energy, biotechnology, medical science, space exploration, and you are of the opinion we shouldn't because your scared of a fucking default? Read a book, you don't live in some po-dunk middle tier country, you live in the strongest, most sophisticated country in the world. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

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Typical propaganda that American workers are the most productive in the world? Are you a communist sympathizer?

Let's get started:

It isn't important. If it was important our bonds (OUR DEBT) rates would be skyrocketing due to fears of the US defaulting. We are the most risk-averse investment on the planet. Personal debt is irrelevant in this conversation because it has no relevant to the operating budgets of the world's largest economy and government.

You got a source for that claim? Or you just making up random bullshit again?

You got a source for that claim? Or you just making up random bullshit again?

Same for you, bucko.

The government is a whole lot fucking more than a business. Our public investment spending can lead the entire global economy out of recessions. Our collective investment into our own infrastructure after WW2 coupled with subsidized housing and education for veterans led to the largest, most prosperous middle class the entire world has seen. The US government can assume the risk that no other entity on the planet can, like a 100 trillion dollar commitment to renewable energy, biotechnology, medical science, space exploration, and you are of the opinion we shouldn't because your scared of a fucking default? Read a book, you don't live in some po-dunk middle tier country, you live in the strongest, most sophisticated country in the world. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

You got a source for that claim? Or you just making up random bullshit again?

Typical propaganda that American workers are the most productive in the world? Are you a communist sympathizer?

Communism is an economic system. Not a political system. Kinda sad how your fervent zealotry for US superiority blinds you from this fact.