1. #1801
    Herald of the Titans Mall Security's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bergmann620 View Post
    I don't need more than one LFR to know that college is not quite in everyone's wheelhouse. Further, people graduating right now are having a hell of a time finding work, almost across the board.

    We simply don't need as many people to produce what we consume anymore. We will need even less in the future.

    That's why the minimum wage thing is so short-sighted. It's a a symptom of the far larger "We don't have any fucking jobs" issue that is beginning to crash down on us.


    Yeah Video games and anecdotal experience is a great source to judge if the populace over all is fit for college.

  2. #1802
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There's two options;

    1> Pay them a living wage
    2> Expect someone else to make up the difference when you don't, meaning you're shunting off the maintenance requirements of that individual onto someone else (like the taxpayers).

    The latter is the unreasonable option. There's no reason not to pay those people a living wage.

    Hell, if I had my druthers, I'd push for a basic income system, and everyone would be getting their living wage direct from the government. Everyone, including the unemployed. Including kids in school. Everyone. Children would get a reduced amount until they hit 18 or are emancipated or orphaned, but everyone would be getting their basic income. I recognize this is a much more extreme proposal, however, so I usually stick with the living wage as a minimum wage, because that's just making the current system functional, rather than an all-new system.

    There is no justifiable reason to deny people a living wage.



    This is just objectively false, on its face, and also ignores that "real jobs" are not in infinite supply.
    You didnt mention the 3rd option, help get them into better paying, non-college, jobs. Considering that in the USA, millions of immigrants our here legally doing these "real jobs" we obviously have a good supply.

  3. #1803
    Quote Originally Posted by Moadar View Post
    That's the truly funny part. The ultra rich gladly screw over those with less while they somehow brain washed the poorer into defending them and their greed.

    Back in the day the way you created an uprising was the middle and lower uniting against the upper. You burn the top part and everyone moves up a step.
    The upper end has the middle so fixated in fear and greed on the poor, they have ensured that mode of them being unseated won't happen again. Your actual ally in, "US VS THEM" is not people above you, but below.
    Under you is the true test of everything that makes a good person good. It's never not been that way, which is why it's silly when people get all crazy that those with less want a step up.
    "If you want to control people, if you want to feed them a pack of lies and dominate them, keep them ignorant. For me, literacy means freedom." - LaVar Burton.

  4. #1804
    Elemental Lord Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khoranth View Post
    You didnt mention the 3rd option, help get them into better paying, non-college, jobs. Considering that in the USA, millions of immigrants our here legally doing these "real jobs" we obviously have a good supply.
    So deport all the legal immigrants or what? If a job is occupied, it kinda isn't available for some unemployed or underemployed person to fill.
    Last edited by Masark; 2014-07-29 at 05:53 PM.
    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
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  5. #1805
    Quote Originally Posted by Tastyfish View Post
    Back in the day the way you created an uprising was the middle and lower uniting against the upper. You burn the top part and everyone moves up a step.
    The upper end has the middle so fixated in fear and greed on the poor, they have ensured that mode of them being unseated won't happen again.
    Your actual ally in, "US VS THEM" is not people above you, but below.
    So true. It boggles my mind that middle and lower class people defend someone who actively buys politicians in order to make things better for them and worse for everyone else.

  6. #1806
    Herald of the Titans Mall Security's Avatar
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    Honestly I find it amusing people that demonize education one minute then promote it the next as long as its the right kind of education.

    Regardless to how expensive college is, or how ill advised going to school for some dead fields.


    EDUCATION is actually ALWAYS a good thing, especially a Liberal Education where one exposes one self and mind to new ideas and different concepts, even though that notion scares some folks.
    Last edited by Mall Security; 2014-07-29 at 05:53 PM.

  7. #1807
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khoranth View Post
    You didnt mention the 3rd option, help get them into better paying, non-college, jobs. Considering that in the USA, millions of immigrants our here legally doing these "real jobs" we obviously have a good supply.
    You just said those jobs weren't available, because they're already taken.

    You're arguing as if employment was infinite. It isn't. Your argument is a fantasy world that doesn't exist.

  8. #1808
    Banned Hammerfest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    You wouldn't know what far left was if I dropped the collected works of Karl Marx on your unhelmeted head.
    I'm pretty confident I know what I'm talking about. I picked up a lot from my marxist professors in college and I live in Wisconsin, where the seat of power is Madison (or "Moscow West")... where the protests of the Left have been crystal clear... not to mention highly acerbic and disgusting.

  9. #1809
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    So deport all the legal immigrants or what? If a job is occupied, it kind isn't available for some unemployed or underemployed person to fill.
    No, didnt say that, but we could stop the policy of bringing more in, or stop renewing visas, for non-college jobs, and then companies would be forced to go recruit and train people out of entry level jobs. We bring in almost a million legal immigrants a year, many are here so that companies can save a little money on training. It is fucking ridiculous.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You just said those jobs weren't available, because they're already taken.

    You're arguing as if employment was infinite. It isn't. Your argument is a fantasy world that doesn't exist.
    To be clear:I am arguing millions of these jobs do exist, and are more created every year, but the US govt gives companies visas, so they can save money on training

  10. #1810
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    I'm pretty confident I know what I'm talking about. I picked up a lot from my marxist professors in college and I live in Wisconsin, where the seat of power is Madison (or "Moscow West")... where the protests of the Left have been crystal clear... not to mention highly acerbic and disgusting.
    1. Your "Marxist professor" isn't actually someone in power.
    2. The stringently Liberal elements you'll sometimes find on campus generally hate the Democrats, the actual "Liberals" in power, because the Democrats are a center-right party and have been since Clinton, at least.

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  11. #1811
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Nobody is arguing for the elimination of wage inequality, or that skilled positions shouldn't be paid more.

    Yes, those other people will demand more money, too. This is the goal. To raise wages. It isn't just about those making exactly minimum wage. It's about raising the wage floor that the wage distribution is based off of. Of course that will echo up the wage ladder. That's intended, and desirable.
    Maybe for anyone still foolish enough to believe a Keynesian approach to anything would ever actually work...
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There's nothing wrong with Keynesian theory.

  12. #1812
    The Lightbringer bergmann620's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There's two options;

    1> Pay them a living wage
    2> Expect someone else to make up the difference when you don't, meaning you're shunting off the maintenance requirements of that individual onto someone else (like the taxpayers).

    The latter is the unreasonable option. There's no reason not to pay those people a living wage.

    Hell, if I had my druthers, I'd push for a basic income system, and everyone would be getting their living wage direct from the government. Everyone, including the unemployed. Including kids in school. Everyone. Children would get a reduced amount until they hit 18 or are emancipated or orphaned, but everyone would be getting their basic income. I recognize this is a much more extreme proposal, however, so I usually stick with the living wage as a minimum wage, because that's just making the current system functional, rather than an all-new system.
    You don't find it odd that #2 is unreasonable (in your words), but your preferred solution is a more extreme version of #2.

    #2 is basically Obamacare for wages, on the path toward single-payer.
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  13. #1813
    Quote Originally Posted by Steamwheedle View Post
    Maybe for anyone still foolish enough to believe a Keynesian approach to anything would ever actually work...
    Because Reaganomics has proven to be oh so successful.....

  14. #1814
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khoranth View Post
    To be clear:I am arguing millions of these jobs do exist, and are more created every year, but the US govt gives companies visas, so they can save money on training
    Those jobs aren't empty, and millions of people are born every year, in America, too.

    Again; your argument is predicated on the idea that employment is an unlimited resource, which is false.

  15. #1815
    Banned Hammerfest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysia View Post
    1. Your "Marxist professor" isn't actually someone in power.
    2. The stringently Liberal elements you'll sometimes find on campus generally hate the Democrats, the actual "Liberals" in power, because the Democrats are a center-right party and have been since Clinton, at least.
    I suppose the Pope's an Islamist too, right?

  16. #1816
    Elemental Lord Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamwheedle View Post
    Maybe for anyone still foolish enough to believe a Keynesian approach to anything would ever actually work...
    What would you prefer? Austrian school?
    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.
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  17. #1817
    Over 9000! Gheld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bergmann620 View Post
    I don't need more than one LFR to know that college is not quite in everyone's wheelhouse. Further, people graduating right now are having a hell of a time finding work, almost across the board.

    We simply don't need as many people to produce what we consume anymore. We will need even less in the future.

    That's why the minimum wage thing is so short-sighted. It's a a symptom of the far larger "We don't have any fucking jobs" issue that is beginning to crash down on us.
    Oh my god he stepped away from the tea party nonsense for a second.

    So your point is that minimum wage is short-sighted because the issue is that a consumer based economy can't sustain itself indefinitely? But we're talking about 'Murica! The economy can do whatever it wants! We don't need a nanny state directing the economy! Don't tread on me!

    So what should be done? Abolish the minimum wage, so that manufacturers can pay american citizens 1 dollar a day to manufacture goods so that they can be consumed by a different country (because let's face it, at a dollar a day you ain't going to be consuming much) which can afford to?

    Here's the scoop sunshine; back in the early industrial era, there were lots of manufacturing jobs in the west, but they all paid peanuts. People started revolting all over the world and all of the 19th century "tea party" types had no choice but to act like they gave a shit about their workers in order to avoid being executed by angry mobs.

    The first and second world war conveniently allowed unprecedented levels of state intervention in the economy at just the right time in order to artificially prop up the manufacturing sector, hence the era of "Good manufacturing sector jobs" but as that state intervention waned the incompatibility between humane working conditions, and a manufacturing based economy became more and more apparent. And now that state intervention is almost entirely gone, and *poof*

    There's 1 of 3 things a country can become now (ignoring the middle east oil countries):

    #1. A desolate, underpaid third world manufacturing country.
    #2. A naive happily placated with all the fatty foods and flashy electronics while ignoring the fact that they are slowly self destructing country.
    #3. An "abandon ship" country. One that lets go of all of the old paradigms and makes or breaks itself on a future of sustainability, and unsubscribing from the religion of economics.

    If your jobs come back tea party style, it will be because your children will be making cheap 5 dollar "made in america" t-shirts for naive newly fattified korean consumers.

  18. #1818
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamwheedle View Post
    Maybe for anyone still foolish enough to believe a Keynesian approach to anything would ever actually work...
    There's nothing wrong with Keynesian theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by bergmann620 View Post
    You don't find it odd that #2 is unreasonable (in your words), but your preferred solution is a more extreme version of #2.

    #2 is basically Obamacare for wages, on the path toward single-payer.
    Not exactly. The reason my #2 was unreasonable was not that the government provided the support, but that the employer shunted the burden for their employee's maintenance onto the government. A basic income system involves the government assuming that responsibility completely, so there's no betrayal of principle, which was the issue with #2 in the first place.

  19. #1819
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    I suppose the Pope's an Islamist too, right?
    No? How do you get that from what I said?

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  20. #1820
    Quote Originally Posted by Mall Security View Post
    Hell, Ill go ahead and make this all a little more personal for me. I work in Security, I sit and basically watch an entire mall ALL day, for shoplifters for basically anything, that requires to dispatched.


    I make $23 and hour, of course I have worked at this job for almost 12 years, and Really it is all I ever wanted to do, I started out here at like $6.25, taking what hours I could going to different facilities owned by the company, but honestly now I basically do what is essentially a job almost anybody could do with the right experience and training, but A lot of people don't because either A. They don't want to be here, and B. Because they have the wrong mentality. We aren't cops, but at the same time we do actually have to do our jobs and monitor the property. That being said, I still don't think we should be hiring people on as guards for $7.50 an hour, because I realize that really isn't a lot to live on, and because of that we get a lot of high turn over.



    Recently though we had hired on a few more new people at about $10.00 and I can tell you from first hand experience, the candidates improved, So if i found out that tomorrow the starting wage was $15 and Hour, I wouldn't complain, and I wouldn't feel that I am due some kind of Extra raise because of it.
    Job pay isn't just about skill, but other things like the amount of responsibility and even retainability factors. Who cares if you retain a burger flipper...dime a dozen, but that security guard that you spent time and money to train and has been here for years is worth a few extra bucks to not have to replace with someone else. It might be worth a few extra bucks to entice that guard to stare at his monitors a little harder. Maybe this security guard needs a Secret clearance and responsible for securing classified buildings. So it isn't always just skill that goes into play.
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