Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ...
6
7
8
9
10
... LastLast
  1. #141
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,504
    The vast majority of back-and-forth dialog on Twitter and in the official forums has always struck me as an issue where the loudest voices are also the worst at forming cogent, actionable arguments. Whether or not this person complaining about the speed of WW Monks' play-style is correct or not is made irrelevant by the tone of his remarks - inviting a less-than-serious response at best and condescension at worst. He could've made the exact same argument with a different (and less childish) tone and got an actual informative response. Something along the lines of:

    "In testing the WW Monk's overall play-style it feels sluggish and unresponsive as opposed to the Rogue or DK. Is this an intentional move for WoD or the result of some kind of tuning issue?"

    Throw in some GCD and throughput numbers to back up the argument and you have a cogent analysis and possible issue someone in development might actually take a look at. It definitely scans better than "WW Monk is slow and if you don't fix it I'm going to take my ball and go home." Part of the issue is perhaps the limited scope of Twitter (a terrible customer service tool in my own opinion), but that pales besides the tone of the Twitter OP being puerile and condescending itself.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #142
    Elemental Lord Duronos's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    In the jungle
    Posts
    8,257
    To be honest I sort of just wish Blizzard wouldn't be so open about their decisions like they were before social media caught on. I have noticed one thing, when you open up your business to social media so you can talk to your customers it can hurt a game and developers. Just take the backseat and be more secretive Blizzard, it's always better to leave your players wondering about your next move.
    Hey everyone

  3. #143
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,504
    Quote Originally Posted by Tizzlefix View Post
    To be honest I sort of just wish Blizzard wouldn't be so open about their decisions like they were before social media caught on. I have noticed one thing, when you open up your business to social media so you can talk to your customers it can hurt a game and developers. Just take the backseat and be more secretive Blizzard, it's always better to leave your players wondering about your next move.
    Sometimes I can't help but agree here, the development process suffers from over-analysis at times. I understand the drive to be both open and transparent, but too many cooks in the kitchen (in this case the entire playerbase of the game) makes for some pretty strange stew.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #144
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Get off my lawn!
    Posts
    10,784
    Quote Originally Posted by Buildapanda View Post
    People have been saying they are not going to play ww because of the new changes to WW, the same is happening with other monk specs such as the mistweaver, I am appalled at blizzards stance against people just dropping the class. They don't believe people are serious? Is that why the monk is the lowest represented class in the game? It won't matter what they do if nobody is playing their class.

    Why does Blizzard think it's okay to treat their fanbase like this?
    I'd like to see them treat their stockholders like this if one threatens to take their money out of the company.

    Here's the proof

    https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...54213178888193
    Yes its perfectly okay to reply like that. Too many people bitch and cry and knee-jerk threat to unsub every time their class stops being OP, or there's a change they don't like, or if they don't get their way when they demand something be changed back.

    Do you reward a child for having a tantrum? No you don't. You show them that tantrum means "well you definitely aren't getting your way now".

    So why should Blizzard reward adults who are acting like children? Short answer: they shouldn't.

    If I was a game developer, every time someone sent me some bullshit like "OMG WTF U NERF WW WHY GODDAMNIT U BETTER FIX THIS SHIT OR I UNSUB", this would be my reply:



    Every.single.time.

    There's a way to express concerns with the game. DEMANDING BLIZZARD MAKE THE GAME EXACTLY THE WAY YOU WANT IT is not that way.
    Last edited by Mirishka; 2014-07-30 at 11:30 AM.
    Appreciate your time with friends and family while they're here. Don't wait until they're gone to tell them what they mean to you.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Yes its perfectly okay to reply like that. Too many people bitch and cry and knee-jerk threat to unsub every time their class stops being OP, or there's a change they don't like, or if they don't get their way when they demand something be changed back.

    Do you reward a child for having a tantrum? No you don't. You show them that tantrum means "well you definitely aren't getting your way now".

    So why should Blizzard reward adults who are acting like children? Short answer: they shouldn't.

    If I was a game developer, every time someone sent me some bullshit like "OMG WTF U NERF WW WHY GODDAMNIT U BETTER FIX THIS SHIT OR I UNSUB", this would be my reply:

    Every.single.time.

    There's a way to express concerns with the game. DEMANDING BLIZZARD MAKE THE GAME EXACTLY THE WAY YOU WANT IT is not that way.
    Uhm, yeah, no-one in the tweet conversation is doing any of those things. They offered feedback on what they feel is wrong only to be stonewalled and have their concerns completely dismissed.

    It is worrying that you see Blizzard as the adult in relationship rather than a company that is reliant on money from its customers for its continued existence.

  6. #146
    Herald of the Titans Tech Priest Bojangles's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    2,859
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Uhm, yeah, no-one in the tweet conversation is doing any of those things. They offered feedback on what they feel is wrong only to be stonewalled and have their concerns completely dismissed.

    It is worrying that you see Blizzard as the adult in relationship rather than a company that is reliant on money from its customers for its continued existence.
    Entirely too many people in this thread leap to defend Blizzard without even getting the whole context. Even a goddamn mod did it.
    I know I shouldn't be surprised at that kind of retarded behavior on this website but I can't help it sometimes.
    -=From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel. I aspired to the purity of the blessed machine. Your kind claimed your flesh as if it will not decay and fail you. One day the crude biomass that you call a temple will wither, and you will beg my kind to save you... But I am already saved..... For the machine is immortal=-

  7. #147
    Never played a Monk and most likely never will, not because of the "changes" but because the idea of martial arts style gameplay in WoW does not appeal to me at all. Personally, I don't think that it fits well in the game and never has. IMO

  8. #148
    Well if a class performs poorly and doesn't feel right, obviously it is going to be "rarely" played. Just take a look at the huge rogue shifts over time. WW does need help though and there are certainly people that will "quit" over trivial (or otherwise) changes, but they are in the minority. When a class/spec gets neglected, then less people play it giving Blizzard even less of a reason to care.

    The blues say a lot of dumb shit, but somehow the players just edge out them on the stupidity meter. People will overreact, but WW does play slower than it's energy counterparts.
    Stay salty my friends.

  9. #149
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
    Posts
    19,105
    Quote Originally Posted by Morthulo View Post
    Never played a Monk and most likely never will, not because of the "changes" but because the idea of martial arts style gameplay in WoW does not appeal to me at all. Personally, I don't think that it fits well in the game and never has. IMO
    On the flip side, it's a fun breath of fresh air to play Windwalker versus rogues or Enhancement shaman or whatever. And, thematically, the idea of beating a dragon to death with your bare hands is awesome (which is the kind of logic Warcraft in general runs on).

    As far as the topic at hand, both sides were wrong here. The guy who essentially claimed WW numbers were going to tank as a form of hostage-taking to get his point across would have been better served with explaining what felt sluggish about WW in beta (which may have been as simple as the gear from quests and dungeons being poorly-optimized for WW or as complex as a bad rotation, or bugs and poor tuning). Celestalon, in return, pointed out that 'people will stop playing X' and other go-to threats have lost their sway with the devs--to the point but it could have been worded better. GC once noted that you get more mileage out of specific explanations than rageposting, as it causes your argument to undermine itself when you word it aggressively.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  10. #150
    Immortal Zka's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    hungary
    Posts
    7,240
    Quote Originally Posted by Buildapanda View Post
    Why does Blizzard think it's okay to treat their fanbase like this?
    Why do some fans think it's okay to treat their developers like that?
    Immature whining and threats have no use except wasting everyone's time.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    On the flip side, it's a fun breath of fresh air to play Windwalker versus rogues or Enhancement shaman or whatever. And, thematically, the idea of beating a dragon to death with your bare hands is awesome (which is the kind of logic Warcraft in general runs on).

    As far as the topic at hand, both sides were wrong here. The guy who essentially claimed WW numbers were going to tank as a form of hostage-taking to get his point across would have been better served with explaining what felt sluggish about WW in beta (which may have been as simple as the gear from quests and dungeons being poorly-optimized for WW or as complex as a bad rotation, or bugs and poor tuning). Celestalon, in return, pointed out that 'people will stop playing X' and other go-to threats have lost their sway with the devs--to the point but it could have been worded better. GC once noted that you get more mileage out of specific explanations than rageposting, as it causes your argument to undermine itself when you word it aggressively.
    Why not read the whole conversation before commenting? They did all this only for Celestalon to dismiss everything that was said.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    Why do some fans think it's okay to treat their developers like that?
    Immature whining and threats have no use except wasting everyone's time.
    Yeah, you're right! I mean what kind of an asshole gives up their spare time to help test and evaluate a company's product and then, get this, actually gives the company feedback based on their testing!? Who do they think they are?!?

  12. #152
    I don't have an issue with Blizzard doing what they think is right regardless of customer feedback. It's their jobs at stake and their responsibility.

    What I do have an issue with is giving good, thorough feedback for years and years on their forums and continually watch them respond to 12 year old ragers instead. Not expecting them to respond to my every post, but I've seen plenty of really great feedback even if I disagreed with it that's well thought out and written and they will instead choose to respond to "gg blizz you ruined my class". And the worst part is they respond with "that feedback doesn't help us". Well fucking acknowledge the good feedback and maybe it will motivate people to leave good feedback.

  13. #153
    Immortal Zka's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    hungary
    Posts
    7,240
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Yeah, you're right! I mean what kind of an asshole gives up their spare time to help test and evaluate a company's product and then, get this, actually gives the company feedback based on their testing!? Who do they think they are?!?
    If you want to be treated decently, then behave decently. For starters, give useful feedback in a decent tone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I've seen plenty of really great feedback even if I disagreed with it that's well thought out and written and they will instead choose to respond to "gg blizz you ruined my class". And the worst part is they respond with "that feedback doesn't help us". Well fucking acknowledge the good feedback and maybe it will motivate people to leave good feedback.
    Yeah indeed.

  14. #154
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Get off my lawn!
    Posts
    10,784
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Uhm, yeah, no-one in the tweet conversation is doing any of those things. They offered feedback on what they feel is wrong only to be stonewalled and have their concerns completely dismissed.

    It is worrying that you see Blizzard as the adult in relationship rather than a company that is reliant on money from its customers for its continued existence.
    Blizzard designs the game and provides the game. We play with the game. Hence the 'parent' analogy. It was more vague than literal, but I understand how you interpreted it as such.

    And say what you will about that one specific conversation but every day I see forum posts, tweets, etc where someone is bellyaching about 'omg they nerfed my class I'm unsubbing eff this do they even play the same game as me fail developers WoW is dead' etc. Every single day I see this garbage, that does nothing for the health of the game and the community. Its just noise, it is just people throwing fits because shit isn't the way they think it should be.

    All it takes is one person making a valid, civil point to make them think, and even change course on stuff. I've given feedback that resulted in several warrior/hunter changes over the years, and the feedback I gave was respectful but to the point. I didn't take the issues I disliked personally and I didn't make it personal when I 'dissed' them.

    Back in Cataclysm beta they were switching warrior tanks to a model of 'SHIELD SLAM HIT FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE, Revenge and Devastate kinda crappy' - this was before the huge threat increase, before tanks were really doing the hit/expertise capping thing, etc. Basically 85-90% of our damage was going to be tied up in Shield Slam, with Revenge and Devastate doing laughable damage by comparison.

    So I posted a big thing, that Ghostcrawler himself replied to several times, explaining why I didn't like that model at all and why. I wasn't a bitch or a jerk, I didn't threaten to unsub over it... I just explained my issues. That A: it really gimped our threat if SS missed or was avoided, and that B: it was inevitably going to cause problems in PvP when warriors are one-shot shield slamming people to death. I didn't insult anyone, I didn't cry or whine or flail. I just explained my objections. Other warriors chimed in, almost universally in agreement that 'Shield Slam or GTFO' gameplay was a step back, not forward.

    2 builds later Shield Slam's damage was cut in half and the damage of Revenge and Devastate was nearly doubled.

    I didn't have to threaten to unsub, I didn't have to insult GC or Blizzard or ask them if they played the same game I did. My objection began with the mechanic and it ended with the mechanic.

    GC put it best on those beta forums: offer feedback, not noise.
    Appreciate your time with friends and family while they're here. Don't wait until they're gone to tell them what they mean to you.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    If you want to be treated decently, then behave decently. For starters, give useful feedback in a decent tone.
    They did but it was ignored. Again they did but it was ignored.

  16. #156
    Immortal Zka's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    hungary
    Posts
    7,240
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    They did but it was ignored. Again they did but it was ignored.
    So what? Most feedback is ignored for obvious reasons like: feedback not good, not in line with the general design, no time to respond, not seen, whatever. This community is huge, producing lots of feedback. Developers owe you no response.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Blizzard designs the game and provides the game. We play with the game. Hence the 'parent' analogy. It was more vague than literal, but I understand how you interpreted it as such.

    And say what you will about that one specific conversation but every day I see forum posts, tweets, etc where someone is bellyaching about 'omg they nerfed my class I'm unsubbing eff this do they even play the same game as me fail developers WoW is dead' etc. Every single day I see this garbage, that does nothing for the health of the game and the community. Its just noise, it is just people throwing fits because shit isn't the way they think it should be.

    All it takes is one person making a valid, civil point to make them think, and even change course on stuff. I've given feedback that resulted in several warrior/hunter changes over the years, and the feedback I gave was respectful but to the point. I didn't take the issues I disliked personally and I didn't make it personal when I 'dissed' them.

    Back in Cataclysm beta they were switching warrior tanks to a model of 'SHIELD SLAM HIT FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE, Revenge and Devastate kinda crappy' - this was before the huge threat increase, before tanks were really doing the hit/expertise capping thing, etc. Basically 85-90% of our damage was going to be tied up in Shield Slam, with Revenge and Devastate doing laughable damage by comparison.

    So I posted a big thing, that Ghostcrawler himself replied to several times, explaining why I didn't like that model at all and why. I wasn't a bitch or a jerk, I didn't threaten to unsub over it... I just explained my issues. That A: it really gimped our threat if SS missed or was avoided, and that B: it was inevitably going to cause problems in PvP when warriors are one-shot shield slamming people to death. I didn't insult anyone, I didn't cry or whine or flail. I just explained my objections. Other warriors chimed in, almost universally in agreement that 'Shield Slam or GTFO' gameplay was a step back, not forward.

    2 builds later Shield Slam's damage was cut in half and the damage of Revenge and Devastate was nearly doubled.

    I didn't have to threaten to unsub, I didn't have to insult GC or Blizzard or ask them if they played the same game I did. My objection began with the mechanic and it ended with the mechanic.

    GC put it best on those beta forums: offer feedback, not noise.
    Blizzard designs a product that we pay for without our money there is no WOW and no Blizzard.

    The point of the thread is that one specific conversation not the others you see every day.

    Does it? I remember Wrath beta feedback that DKs were over powered and let's not forget the feedback in Cata that heroics were too difficult or the mandatory dailies in MOP all of which was ignored.

    Yeah you see none of them insulted Celestalon nor did any of them threaten to unsub or ask Blizzard if they play the same game as they do. Perhaps you should rely on actually reading what was written rather than assumption? And all you little story proves is that Ghostcrawler has better customer skills than Celestalon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    So what? Most feedback is ignored for obvious reasons like: feedback not good, not in line with the general design, no time to respond, not seen, whatever. This community is huge, producing lots of feedback. Developers owe you no response.
    Hmm, okay. In which case why should players waste their time testing and feeding back the results of their testing to Blizzard? Blizzard gain more from these players than the players ever get in return it is not about being owed anything it is about these players giving up their spare time making Blizzard's life easier.

  18. #158
    Listening to feedback =/= we're going to change it.

    Even if you provide well thought out ideas and put it to blizzard perfectly and it's 100% civil and clear. They do NOT have to listen to it, what they will most likely do, is take note of it and save it for later if they believe it warrants a second review and maybe take some ideas out of it.

    A lot of players bitch and moan about specs and never give constructive criticism about it. They say things like "Subs will drop" to try and get others to jump on the bandwagon.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by alucardtnuoc View Post
    Listening to feedback =/= we're going to change it.

    Even if you provide well thought out ideas and put it to blizzard perfectly and it's 100% civil and clear. They do NOT have to listen to it, what they will most likely do, is take note of it and save it for later if they believe it warrants a second review and maybe take some ideas out of it.

    A lot of players bitch and moan about specs and never give constructive criticism about it. They say things like "Subs will drop" to try and get others to jump on the bandwagon.
    If Celestalon had said "thanks for the feedback we'll look in to it" the issue would not have arisen. Oh and for the umpteenth time no-one said subs will drop.

  20. #160
    Herald of the Titans Tech Priest Bojangles's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    2,859
    Quote Originally Posted by alucardtnuoc View Post
    Even if you provide well thought out ideas and put it to blizzard perfectly and it's 100% civil and clear. They do NOT have to listen to it, what they will most likely do, is take note of it and save it for later if they believe it warrants a second review and maybe take some ideas out of it.
    You mean wait until it's too late? Yeah that sounds smart.
    Still not seeing the reason behind inviting all the top monks if you're not gonna listen to them at all and just do your own retarded thing.
    -=From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel. I aspired to the purity of the blessed machine. Your kind claimed your flesh as if it will not decay and fail you. One day the crude biomass that you call a temple will wither, and you will beg my kind to save you... But I am already saved..... For the machine is immortal=-

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •