1. #1

    Bad, Bad, Ewww its Bad

    Subject title is a tribute to my favorite Roger Ebert movie review.

    On the topic of Bad Glyphs, Blizzard's definition of a Bad glyph is one that is mandatory. Cat form and and Nine Lives are so Bad (read mandatory) that Blizzard had to make them mutually exclusive. It seems to me one or both of these should be made baseline. I certainly think there is room to make one of these baseline if Feral is not going to get back Barkskin, Symbiosis or Might of Ursoc.
    Last edited by teddabear; 2014-07-30 at 04:57 AM.

  2. #2
    Here we go again....

    2 mutually exclusive "mandatory" glyphs are good because they involve choice
    Making one of them baselines is "eww bad" because it makes the other one a no-brainer and a permanent glyph. If you do this then they will have to be nerfed or have a tradeoff like Moonkins do with their 10% extra HP glyph in exchange for the armor bonus.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    Here we go again....

    2 mutually exclusive "mandatory" glyphs are good because they involve choice
    Making one of them baselines is "eww bad" because it makes the other one a no-brainer and a permanent glyph. If you do this then they will have to be nerfed or have a tradeoff like Moonkins do with their 10% extra HP glyph in exchange for the armor bonus.
    I actually have to agree with Juvencus on this one. Having glyphs like this (and warlocks' glyphs altering unbound will) is good design because it gives us options without having to make anything baseline. I'd rather they give us barkskin back for 1 charge of SI, which i think would be more useful, but we'll have to wait and see on how good the 2 charge 70% SI is.

    If they want to take WoD in the direction of DR abilities and CC breaks being used per-emptively I'm all for it. For e.g. they just changed tremor totem to be like grounding - you can't use it to break fear, but you can cast it before and it lasts a lot longer. This is much better design, imo.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    Here we go again....

    2 mutually exclusive "mandatory" glyphs are good because they involve choice
    Making one of them baselines is "eww bad" because it makes the other one a no-brainer and a permanent glyph. If you do this then they will have to be nerfed or have a tradeoff like Moonkins do with their 10% extra HP glyph in exchange for the armor bonus.
    I really don't see choice, unless the fight has some sort of mechanics that makes healing taken more valuable... but that would be rare as hell.
    Imo there should be spells you learn via glyphs, a perfect example would be soul swap, the exact same one you get from symbiosis, but just with a different name, or a glyph that works opposite of SI glyph, instead of shortening it, make it like dispersion 90% less dmg taken but only 1 charge.
    Last edited by Skadovsk; 2014-07-29 at 04:14 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    I really don't see choice, unless the fight has some sort of mechanics that makes healing taken more valuable... but that would be rare as hell.
    Fights that you have to be topped to dispell a debuff, be full HP or you die on next attack and many othe situations. You have to remember that in WoD healing will be slower than in MoP. So not only it helps you survive but also helps your healers. And situations are definitely not rare.

    Why do you want it baseline then?

  6. #6
    In the last 16 tiers damage reduction has always been better than healing. Seems pretty unlikely for their to be a sea change now. I'm pretty sure I've heard this claim that healing will be completely different before.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    In the last 16 tiers damage reduction has always been better than healing. Seems pretty unlikely for their to be a sea change now. I'm pretty sure I've heard this claim that healing will be completely different before.
    Did you fail 2nd grade math? How could 20% healing possibly be worse than 10% DR? Doesn't even make sense...
    10% DR is exclusively for trying to soak large hits that you don't have enough HP for or DR with SI
    Last edited by rhandal; 2014-07-29 at 09:25 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dolsonthedruid View Post
    Did you fail 2nd grade math? How could 20% healing possibly be worse than 10% DR? Doesn't even make sense...
    10% DR is exclusively for trying to soak large hits that you don't have enough HP for or DR with SI
    Let me know when you manage to bring a dead player back to life with a heal. Plus there is this new thing called overhealing.

    No that is not what 10% DR is for or you would change to Bear form instead.

    Imo you could make them both baseline and feral would still have less survivability than a class that has Evasion, Cheat Death, Feint, Elusiveness, Cloak of Shadows, Vanish and Smokebomb.
    Last edited by teddabear; 2014-07-29 at 09:36 PM.

  9. #9
    For most fights +20% healing is going to be better. There's already plenty of math on this that overall you'll need less healing with cat glyph. Warlords there's double hp pools in case you forgot so you will very rarely need the extra 10% DR. It's rarely better.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    I actually have to agree with Juvencus on this one. Having glyphs like this (and warlocks' glyphs altering unbound will) is good design because it gives us options without having to make anything baseline. I'd rather they give us barkskin back for 1 charge of SI, which i think would be more useful, but we'll have to wait and see on how good the 2 charge 70% SI is.

    If they want to take WoD in the direction of DR abilities and CC breaks being used per-emptively I'm all for it. For e.g. they just changed tremor totem to be like grounding - you can't use it to break fear, but you can cast it before and it lasts a lot longer. This is much better design, imo.
    This isn't an option, it's choosing between 2 mandatory glyphs. I would love some glyphs that actually gave feral legitimate options. How about a glyph that made damage vs 3 targets not craptastic. Like a glyph for Swipe that made it hit only 3 targets but boosted damage significantly. Or a glyph for Rake that made it hit 3 targets but decreased damage. Those are options.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dolsonthedruid View Post
    Did you fail 2nd grade math? How could 20% healing possibly be worse than 10% DR? Doesn't even make sense...
    10% DR is exclusively for trying to soak large hits that you don't have enough HP for or DR with SI
    Any situation where one big hit, or a multitude of smaller hits in quick succession, can kill a player before any healing arrives, 10% DR is better. Now I don't know what the fights in WoD will be like, but I can think of a few examples in MoP where this happened. Lei Shen, Juggernaut and Siegecrafter come to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    This isn't an option, it's choosing between 2 mandatory glyphs.
    I'm not sure you know the meaning of the word mandatory. How will a lack of either of these make your class unplayable?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Daear View Post
    Any situation where one big hit, or a multitude of smaller hits in quick succession, can kill a player before any healing arrives, 10% DR is better. Now I don't know what the fights in WoD will be like, but I can think of a few examples in MoP where this happened. Lei Shen, Juggernaut and Siegecrafter come to mind.

    I'm not sure you know the meaning of the word mandatory. How will a lack of either of these make your class unplayable?
    That's not how, or rarely how damage happens in Warlords. First, you're normally getting constant healing from hots and healing rain, especially since you are a melee you're basically always going to have an efflo, HR, etc under you. Damage is constant and no longer as bursty. I'd laugh a feral out of any raid that used it unless he needed to soak a big hit. Ninth life, appropriately named, is quite niche, and if you're taking in by default in a raiding environment, you're incredibly dumb and don't understand the difference between the 2.

    I do agree they are mandatory, however. but the flexibility is nice to have, although I'd rather have a glyph to change how SI works, kinda like the warlock glyphs.

  13. #13
    Both are a dps gain one way or another in PVP. Cat form is more sustained because you heal yourself more with a gcd. Ninth life is more for burst, No gcd = more damage abilities.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Dolsonthedruid View Post
    That's not how, or rarely how damage happens in Warlords. First, you're normally getting constant healing from hots and healing rain, especially since you are a melee you're basically always going to have an efflo, HR, etc under you. Damage is constant and no longer as bursty. I'd laugh a feral out of any raid that used it unless he needed to soak a big hit. Ninth life, appropriately named, is quite niche, and if you're taking in by default in a raiding environment, you're incredibly dumb and don't understand the difference between the 2.

    I do agree they are mandatory, however. but the flexibility is nice to have, although I'd rather have a glyph to change how SI works, kinda like the warlock glyphs.
    I'd be very, very careful making assumptions about tier 19 and 20 based on the content you have seen in Beta because they will very likely be wrong.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    This isn't an option, it's choosing between 2 mandatory glyphs. I would love some glyphs that actually gave feral legitimate options. How about a glyph that made damage vs 3 targets not craptastic. Like a glyph for Swipe that made it hit only 3 targets but boosted damage significantly. Or a glyph for Rake that made it hit 3 targets but decreased damage. Those are options.
    I do agree that it would be interesting to have choices with at trade-off, sort of like the swipe suggestion. But where does it end? I know at the time we had only the 20% healing glyph i felt like it should have been baseline, but as soon as you make that baseline, the glyph of ninth life becomes mandatory - regardless of pve or pvp.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    I do agree that it would be interesting to have choices with at trade-off, sort of like the swipe suggestion. But where does it end? I know at the time we had only the 20% healing glyph i felt like it should have been baseline, but as soon as you make that baseline, the glyph of ninth life becomes mandatory - regardless of pve or pvp.
    Here is what I think should really happen. Make both glyphs baseline, reduce SI to 60% and give Feral back Bakrskin. Not using Barkskin on periodic raid damage is just going to make Ferals feel like bad players. There then would be room for glyphs like the swipe glyph or any of the other good suggestions I have seen this expansion, but there was no room for them because Feral already had 3 mandatory glyphs. Making glyphs mutually exclusive is a kludge and an admission of failure at making glyphs about choice. Just because you can only choose one does not make it a choice. Once players get a feel for raid damage and raid healing it will become obvious which one is mandatory.

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