Thoughts on Unions

[Raeph]

Unions are probably the best thing that's happened since the industrial age started. Without it workers would be paid next to nothing and have no rights. If they went away we'd probably reverse back to pre union times within a decade.

I'd disagree with that, on all levels.

An educated workforce is the best thing to happen to the country since the industrial age. An educated workforce also knows what it took to train them for their job, and knows that compensation should be comparative to the funds used to train the skills. If any employer decided to undercut their staffs compensation on a whim like you suggest then they would lose their staff entirely, to another employer willing to pay employee's what they think they are work, up to the point that sector of the economy can handle.

Additionally if an entire industry decided to undercut it's workforce in such a way, collectively, then you would just push your employee's (again educated workforce) into entrepreneurship, creating new competition for the skilled members of that workforce.

Honestly consider if you have a business employing say 50 technicians currently making $25 a hour, which the business now says will only pay them $1 an hour because they don't want to pay them that much anymore. What will those technicians do, honestly? Leave for a competitor for better wages, create a new business and take as many of their customers with them as they can or take the skill set and apply it to a new industry. All the business owner did was kill his own business in one policy move. That is not to even mention any litigation that might ensue by the employee's after they leave. Take technician and replace it by any other skilled laborer, and the same things will happen.

Also if unions disappeared, we'd still have federal and state level regulations requiring certain levels of compensation.

Sorry, what you suggest doesn't pass the logic test.

[Deleted]

Definitely useful and necessary. But like anyone or anything, they shouldn't be allowed too much power.

Some Unions seem louder than others though. Seems like a month can't go past without another Fire Brigade or Teachers strike in Britain.

[Annoying]

Additionally if an entire industry decided to undercut it's workforce in such a way, collectively, then you would just push your employee's (again educated workforce) into entrepreneurship, creating new competition for the skilled members of that workforce.

Yeah, that doesn't just happen. Entrepreneurship requires capital. If all the semiconductor manufacturers dropped to minimum wage for all employees, do you think anyone who used to work for them has the capital to create a massive semiconductor factory, the capital to pay bills while they all designed new processors and such from scratch? The capital to secure resources that the major semiconductor manufacturers have better-paying contracts with? Not a chance.

[Hraklea]

Where's the "they are an evil, but should not be regulated" option?

[Masark]

Yeah, that doesn't just happen. Entrepreneurship requires capital.

You can just borrow that from your parents.

[Catta]

Unions are a neccessary evil, but it's rubbish that they are more prone to fraud than the rest of society. I think you have seen to many mafia movies.

How are unions "evil"? They protect the workers and allow bargaining powers against their employer. Even the employers unionize.

[Annoying]

You can just borrow that from your parents.

As long as your parents have $5b lying around, sure thing!

EDIT: oh, and there's that whole "intellectual property" issue. If you spent 25 years working with intel chips, and then left to make your own chip factory (somehow managing to find capital), I can bet you'd have lawyers at your door, hounding your every move, looking for patent infringement.

[Kujako]

Glad they exist, but HATE dealing with them. Especially Teamsters. I used to do a lot of E3 and similar shows. Being told that I'm not allowed to carry a box to my stall and that I have to pay someone to carry it for me is annoying as all get out.

[Daez]

Have no problems with unions other then being forced to join never understood that aspect if unions are so great why are you being forced to join

also collective bargaining screws over the above average workers and gives to much benefit to the underperforming workers I feel pay and benefits should be judged on a individuals performance not on the collective because what benefit is there to do a better job then the person next to you if you are both going to always get paid the same no matter if you produce more or not

Being a nursing assistant and male, I have had some really great job offers with some really decent salary (for generally unskilled labor) offers. The jobs that always sucked the most were unions because 1) they didn't pay nearly as much, 2) you were not treated as well by the administration and 3) you were still forced to pay union dues.

I actually had better relationships with the employers when there was no union because I could go directly to them and have my problems addressed instead of going through someone else who most likely cared more about getting paid than addressing my problem. Whoever attempts to make the argument that we need unions to keep from reverting to the shoe factory days fails to take into account that our labor force is much more skilled than ever before, and a truly skilled machinist can already name their own salary (within reasons) and benefit package without the unions based on the scarcity of his/her skill set. Same goes for any skilled industrial worker, any skilled medical worker, any skilled office worker... its the skill set that is so in demand that it completely outweighs the collective bargaining... in fact the collective bargaining does a lot more to pull down the skill set while providing benefits to people with no real skills.

Add that to the fact that unions have made it impossible to competitively price products while still making a profit due to labor costs and you can easily explain why companies pay to ship their products from China instead of tackling labor costs in this country.

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I think your article there is a little misleading. The actual bill.

http://votesmart.org/bill/14927/#39032

Imagine that... the Democrats twisting things to read exactly how their selling point stands... shock!

[Hraklea]

How are unions "evil"? They protect the workers...

They protect the workers by not allowing the unemployed to work by a cheaper wage. I don't see how keeping the unemployed without a job is not evil.

[Raeph]

Yeah, that doesn't just happen. Entrepreneurship requires capital. If all the semiconductor manufacturers dropped to minimum wage for all employees, do you think anyone who used to work for them has the capital to create a massive semiconductor factory, the capital to pay bills while they all designed new processors and such from scratch? The capital to secure resources that the major semiconductor manufacturers have better-paying contracts with? Not a chance.

Guess it depends where you are then. Out here all you need to start a business is a permit and the know how and a business model to get a small business loan.

The Federal government throws money through grants at entrepreneurs every year (large books are published on how to write for them). Additionally, you seem to thing that starting a business means buying a multimillion dollar facility and getting 50+ workers.

A business can be one person, working out of their garage with a marketable skill set, and the time to court customers. You are overthinking the concept of "business".

[Deleted]

How are unions "evil"? They protect the workers and allow bargaining powers against their employer. Even the employers unionize.

Because, once again, most of the posters here are from the US and their unions are nothing like the unions in EU.

[GarGar]

I sorta see them as a stepping stone toward a safer and more productive workforce. Workers of any industrializing country are going to go through unsafe working conditions, very low pay, abuse by management, etc. In cases where that exists, yes, unions can and should be formed to force decent standards for workers. But once those standards are written into law, I see the effectiveness of unions dropping off. I think too many unions in America today exist not for the worker, but for political power.

Will 1st world country workers go back to 3rd world conditions without unions? No, definitely not. But could unions continue to benefit the workers? Sure, if managed properly. Thus I don't think they should be abolished, but I also don't think anyone should be forced to join one.

[Jeniwyn]

Absolutely horrible options in this poll. How come you think that anyone who finds unions highly useful wants automatic enrollment and/or forced membership?

[Daez]

Yeah, that doesn't just happen. Entrepreneurship requires capital. If all the semiconductor manufacturers dropped to minimum wage for all employees, do you think anyone who used to work for them has the capital to create a massive semiconductor factory, the capital to pay bills while they all designed new processors and such from scratch? The capital to secure resources that the major semiconductor manufacturers have better-paying contracts with? Not a chance.

Not only has this been done (the raising of capital) repeatedly but you can do a start up with very little capital if you have a competent business plan and an established customer base. What you fail to realize most of all is that when you undervalue your workforce you destroy your company. If you can make the same amount working at Starbucks you have no incentive to train yourself and educate yourself for a job that is not working at Starbucks. Its the real reason that companies that need quality qualified workers pay them very well... it has NOTHING to do with unions.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Neccessary Evil, should be highly regulated as they are prone to fraud


As soon as Union go from a movement to a business they become just as much part of the problem

[Annoying]

Guess it depends where you are then. Out here all you need to start a business is a permit and the know how and a business model to get a small business loan.

The Federal government throws money through grants at entrepreneurs every year (large books are published on how to write for them). Additionally, you seem to thing that starting a business means buying a multimillion dollar facility and getting 50+ workers.

A business can be one person, working out of their garage with a marketable skill set, and the time to court customers. You are overthinking the concept of "business".

Yeah, but what of the businesses that can't start out of a garage? You can't even think of competing with Intel or AMD without a massive factory and huge output. There are a ton of industries where "out of their garage with a marketable skill set" just doesn't cut it. Do we give those industries free passes to pay absurdly low wages?

[Daez]

As long as your parents have $5b lying around, sure thing!

EDIT: oh, and there's that whole "intellectual property" issue. If you spent 25 years working with intel chips, and then left to make your own chip factory (somehow managing to find capital), I can bet you'd have lawyers at your door, hounding your every move, looking for patent infringement.

Nice example. Intel. The TOP salary for a technician is $95,000 yet they are unionized.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Inte..._D_KO18,42.htm

I think what you really just created was an argument for their technicians to break away and form their own companies since most likely the reason their skilled techs are capped so incredibly low is because unions work to standardize the workforce inside of a company. There is no real room for rewarding excellence because that is NOT how collective bargaining works.

[Daws]

The unions are one of those things that where needed to get certain rights but now the rights are here it is simply a collection of people who just want to run around with some power. Honestly what was the last thing they achieved of any practical use which could not have been achieved far quicker without them? (fyi basing my experience on UK). I see these people as essentially the working mans politician promising great change so long as you put them in power but providing near zero improvement but somehow managing to feather there nests quite nicely. Don't be fooled people this lot won't change a thing they are a greedy, manipulative and as two faced as any politician.

[Daez]

Because, once again, most of the posters here are from the US and their unions are nothing like the unions in EU.

The unions are similar. Its the companies that aren't. If the unions in this country actually had to sit on the board of directors for the company and had an actual incentive to keep the company going strong things would be very different here. However, their only incentive is to their workers and that means they often lose touch with what exactly the company can tackle while demanding much much more. No company will ever operate without a huge profit margin. The smaller that profit margin gets the smaller the chances of the business bothering to stay open gets.

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Absolutely horrible options in this poll. How come you think that anyone who finds unions highly useful wants automatic enrollment and/or forced membership?

Because the only way unions can function is through automatic enrollment and forced membership? Without those two concepts the union does not really exist. No one is going to willingly just hand over $100 a month in union dues while receiving nothing for it. What is worse is when you have "Right to Work" legislation in its current form. It allows people to join the union but not pay union dues... that means they receive the benefits of the union without paying for them.