CC break abilities should mostly be pre-emptive?

[Deleted]

In my opinion trinkets should be removed along with CC break abilities.

CC is counter, and trinket is counter to counter, it doesnt make sense. Get rid of them and then balance CC.

[gestapo]

Human racial is fine. More damage means nothing in the meta level of pvp. Defense always wins this game and while in the scrub brackets the human racial good for that "extra damage" it's worthless against good players.

Will of the Forsaken is literally a free defensive fear break for anyone playing undead. Fear is the most powerful CC in this game and for a race to have the ability to break it is ridiculous. I don't understand why people don't play undead Warrior/DK because when you stack Berserker Rage/Lichborne/ with Will of the Forsaken, its overpowered as hell against classes that rely on a fear.

Humans just get more damage. More damage doesn't matter when everything at top level play is optimized to the point where CC breaks are more important than damage. I'm not saying the human racial is bad, its just powerful. There's a difference between being powerful and overpowered.

I'll comment since this somewhat relates to 'CC in pvp' I guess

You actually have it backwards. EMFH is far stronger than Wotf, and even more so given that the latter got increased to a 3min cd while the former was left untouched in the big racials overhaul. You argument is strange because EMFH is literally a free 'any cc' break for anyone playing human.

Fear was quite prevalent but not rampant enough to cause people to flood to play UD. In fact, Orc racials were actually much stronger and became the popular choice for many of the dps classes.

If anything we should at least see EMFH be increased to a 3 min cd to match its horde 'counterpart', if you will. A better option would have been to change it in the overhaul when they could have scrapped it and given humans a new racial.

A lot of people keep wanting them to remove or nerf everything. The more you take away from the game, the less things classes can do and the smaller the skill cap is. Yeah sure some CC is mindless, but the more CC that is in the game, the more demand it requires out of people to play and communicate better. There's a reason why so many Godcomp teams suck against KFC teams at lower mmr. It's because they can't coordinate CC effectively. CC chains do equal skill.

The less CC there is, the more time people will just spend tunneling pve rotations and the less risk there is to play aggressively. This entire restructure of this games pvp ultimately benefits melee as positioning will have less of an impact in the game with less CC.

On some level you're right that you can't keep taking things away, but you have to choose your battles. The game is undeniably evolving and is incomparable to its previous versions in the past. Given the current game there is far too much CC. There's a good balance that can be struck in terms of amount of CC vs how rewarding skillful play is.

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In my opinion trinkets should be removed along with CC break abilities.

CC is counter, and trinket is counter to counter, it doesnt make sense. Get rid of them and then balance CC.

No. The CC 'talents' should be removed or changed to not break all types of CC and trinkets need to be kept/made the most important tool in cc break. For one, it keeps from ridiculous pve trinkets being too strong in pvp and it tones down the breaks so that the value of CC is not diminished and we can land kills.

[Hand Banana]

I like the idea of cc breaks being preemptive, but it conflicts with the current design of how DR's work. Like zerker rage for example, having it be preemptive and immune the fear is all good and stuff, but it won't put you on DR with the fear. So when its over you can feared full duration, which is why we wait to get feared before using it. If all cc breaks are to be used before the cc lands which is a good thing IMO, then it needs to put you on DR.

[Shamanegans]

I'll comment since this somewhat relates to 'CC in pvp' I guess

You actually have it backwards. EMFH is far stronger than Wotf, and even more so given that the latter got increased to a 3min cd while the former was left untouched in the big racials overhaul. You argument is strange because EMFH is literally a free 'any cc' break for anyone playing human.

Fear was quite prevalent but not rampant enough to cause people to flood to play UD. In fact, Orc racials were actually much stronger and became the popular choice for many of the dps classes.

If anything we should at least see EMFH be increased to a 3 min cd to match its horde 'counterpart', if you will. A better option would have been to change it in the overhaul when they could have scrapped it and given humans a new racial.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Human racial is fine. More damage means nothing in the meta level of pvp. Defense always wins this game and while in the scrub brackets the human racial good for that "extra damage" it's worthless against good players.

Will of the Forsaken is literally a free defensive fear break for anyone playing undead. Fear is the most powerful CC in this game and for a race to have the ability to break it is ridiculous. I don't understand why people don't play undead Warrior/DK because when you stack Berserker Rage/Lichborne/ with Will of the Forsaken, its overpowered as hell against classes that rely on a fear.

Humans just get more damage. More damage doesn't matter when everything at top level play is optimized to the point where CC breaks are more important than damage. I'm not saying the human racial is bad, its just powerful. There's a difference between being powerful and overpowered.

The human racial is a fear breaker too ... it can break any CC not just fear. That instantly makes it better than WotF (that has a longer CD too). The reason people don't play undead warriors or DKs is because being an undead simply is not that great compared to Orcs that get some stun reduction, hence proving the point that fear isn't the most powerful CC in the game.

WotF = A fear break only
EMFH = A free trinket slot to use two pvp trinkets = More PvP power AND extra STR/AGIL/INT and in the case of int and agil = more crit.

The human racial allows for much higher burst which in turn will land so much more kills at vital times at high end gameplay so the human racial is by far better than WotF. How you can't see that is beyond me.

A lot of people keep wanting them to remove or nerf everything. The more you take away from the game, the less things classes can do and the smaller the skill cap is. Yeah sure some CC is mindless, but the more CC that is in the game, the more demand it requires out of people to play and communicate better. There's a reason why so many Godcomp teams suck against KFC teams at lower mmr. It's because they can't coordinate CC effectively. CC chains do equal skill.

The less CC there is, the more time people will just spend tunneling pve rotations and the less risk there is to play aggressively. This entire restructure of this games pvp ultimately benefits melee as positioning will have less of an impact in the game with less CC.

Alot want it gone because using it doesn't make skill anymore, that is the whole point.

CS > Kidney > para poison > gouge > Blind... Where is the skill in that?
NS > Cyclone > Stun > Root ... Where is the skill?
Shockwave > Fear > Stormbolt ... Where is the skill

Point is the fact classes have so much CC to force a trinket then roll another CC onto that, that you cannot do anything about is ridiculous and the reason why people are glad to see most of it being removed.

[Yvaelle]

EMfHS is mutually exclusive with the CC break trinket, you can have either one, or the other - but not both. People are talking about it like it's a second CC break - it's not - it's a second DPS trinket that is all you gain from it - since you lose your 'trinket' trinket by being human.

Undead can break a fear with WotF, and then break any CC with their trinket. A human can only break one CC - like every other race in the game - via trinket/racials.

WotF is a wildly different breed of racial than anything else in the game - the only remotely similar thing is Gnome root break - but nobody plays gnomes competitively.

[morislayer]

In that case CC's should no longer be instant. None of them. That includes the warlock talents, and fear should just become a talent. Psychic scream is already down that route.

I agree, freezing trap being the only one, because of "arm time". Though I would trade insta cast trap with a "freezing arrow" casted.

All CC's, including warrior / priest / warlock aoe fear need cast time. 6s fears, that may or may not break early is at least a nerf to the 8s of run 100 yards away from teammate bullshit that has been going on for 8 years. People need to be able to react / run away of CC. Also with all the casting going on, interupts CD needs to be increased, or melee / hunters will be gods in WOD.

OT: First of, paladins already have this, Hand of Sacrifice. Druids, especially feral have enough immunity as is from CC (scare beast going away means you don't have to shift out to prevent that either). A hunter could deterrance, a warrior could spell reflect, and so on. These mechanics are already in game.

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In my opinion trinkets should be removed along with CC break abilities.

CC is counter, and trinket is counter to counter, it doesnt make sense. Get rid of them and then balance CC.

Yea I thought about this too as it is a blanket "trinket out" for every single player but then every single class needs and EMFH type mechanic, so I would say just leave the trinket in.

[Tyrean]

Ryan, your comments on the CC removal dumbing things down I don't think take into account the "idea" that damage and healing will also be slower. (I have yet to see this) In the current game, you can succeed just by randomly throwing out CC as soon as it is off cooldown and time yours at the end of someone else's CC. This works because you can take someone out of the game for such long periods of time to get defensive ability usage out of targets or major healing abilities out of healers.

I think the idea is that yes, there is less CC in the game and you spend more time in control of your characters, but the difference between scrubs and pros is when they decide to use their CC. Instead of every time it is available, maybe you wait on it a little bit for the healer to get out of position or someone to over extend and then you roll in a CC. That is the idea at least, but I am pretty confident that they won't be able to do it. I have heard every expansion that they want to slow down damage in pvp and every expansion it just gets more and more out of control.

[Thralk]

In that case CC's should no longer be instant. None of them. That includes the warlock talents, and fear should just become a talent. Psychic scream is already down that route.

/agree with this

I don't do a ton of PVP, but playing Elemental and having the instant Tremor was one of the few tools I have to get out of being prevented from doing anything against warriors/spriests/locks. Already having to monitor when to accurately use Grounding to avoid nukes, just adds something else to watch, while already suffering from real escape mechanics/gap creators. Not thrilled with the change, but will have to play it myself to see just how much I like/dislike it.

[Shamanegans]

EMfHS is mutually exclusive with the CC break trinket, you can have either one, or the other - but not both. People are talking about it like it's a second CC break - it's not - it's a second DPS trinket that is all you gain from it - since you lose your 'trinket' trinket by being human.

Undead can break a fear with WotF, and then break any CC with their trinket. A human can only break one CC - like every other race in the game - via trinket/racials.

WotF is a wildly different breed of racial than anything else in the game - the only remotely similar thing is Gnome root break - but nobody plays gnomes competitively.

No one said EMFH is a second trinket. We all know it isn't. Neither is WotF. Using the racial/trinket puts the other on a short CD so if you use one or the other then you are vulnerable to CC. the human racial offers alot more than a fear break, especially to the likes of say a warrior that can already break that with berserkers rage.

Look at the ladders and see how many humans there are to undead... Actually how many humans there is to any horde race. The numbers speaks for itself.

[Rorke]

No one said EMFH is a second trinket. We all know it isn't. Neither is WotF. Using the racial/trinket puts the other on a short CD so if you use one or the other then you are vulnerable to CC. the human racial offers alot more than a fear break, especially to the likes of say a warrior that can already break that with berserkers rage.

Look at the ladders and see how many humans there are to undead... Actually how many humans there is to any horde race. The numbers speaks for itself.

I assume you play on EU, EU is alliance dominated and US is Horde dominated. Just like in Cataclysm, US was Alliance dominated and EU was Horde dominated. You're basing it off your own perspective and putting it out as a "fact." That's fine, I do the same thing, but I'm just calling it out when I see someone else do it.

There's a reason why almost every single wizard is undead and almost every single horde rogue is undead. And no it's not because everyone likes to play undead or the animations. It's because the damage gained from Blood Fury means nothing for those classes and the fear break is much more powerful when you stack it with shaman tremor totem.

The 45 second internal cool down is basically a slap on the wrist to an overpowered racial. No good undead user needs to break every single fear, its the most important fear that counts, you know the one that's mean to stop you from doing damage or helping a team mate. It's absolutely frustrating to see someone playing undead break a well placed fear just because he's undead.

Damage on the other hand can be stopped. You can anticipate and stop burst damage. All the human racial does is add more damage to retarded damage that you don't even need. Unless you play a Warrior or Death Knight where damage means everything, the human racial is just "powerful" but not overpowered.

Fear was quite prevalent but not rampant enough to cause people to flood to play UD. In fact, Orc racials were actually much stronger and became the popular choice for many of the dps classes.

Orc is not the most popular for wizards and rogues, undead still have that title. The only two non shaman classes that is orc dominated are Warriors and DK's. I even think Orc Warriors are better than human Warriors because people forget that you get Crit by using a Trinket. Human Warriors just get Strength and a little more pvp power where as Orcs get 3% more crit, stun reduction and Blood Fury which almost makes up for the human dps trinket.

DK's of non human races all use double dps trinkets anyway because the class is completely mindless and is all about damage. Fuck two trinkets, Desecrated Ground and lol Lichborne/Icebound is good enough. Orc's basically win over humans in that regard too because now they get the double dps trinkets, stun reduction, and blood fury while humans just get to sit with 2 trinkets that the class doesn't even need.

If anything we should at least see EMFH be increased to a 3 min cd to match its horde 'counterpart', if you will. A better option would have been to change it in the overhaul when they could have scrapped it and given humans a new racial.

You can't nerf human racial or else it's completely worthless. It's one of those things that you either have to remove or just keep.

You still think EMFH = WoTF, but as the mod says, it's not true. WoTF is a fear break on top of a trinket. EMFH is just more damage on top of a trinket. They're not the same thing. You can't just make EMFH 3 minutes or else every human would have to use the trinket slot like every other race. Undead would then just be superior over humans because they would have a fear break and a 2 minute trinket.

I play both Undead and Human and honestly while I like the extra retard damage on my Human Warrior/DK/Rogue, my undead characters of those same classes enjoy the fear break more. I just feel more powerful on my undead characters than I do on my human characters. And when I'm on my human Warrior and I see an Undead Rogue break my intimidating shout, it gives me all the more reason to go back to my Undead Warrior.

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Ryan, your comments on the CC removal dumbing things down I don't think take into account the "idea" that damage and healing will also be slower. (I have yet to see this) In the current game, you can succeed just by randomly throwing out CC as soon as it is off cooldown and time yours at the end of someone else's CC. This works because you can take someone out of the game for such long periods of time to get defensive ability usage out of targets or major healing abilities out of healers.

I think the idea is that yes, there is less CC in the game and you spend more time in control of your characters, but the difference between scrubs and pros is when they decide to use their CC. Instead of every time it is available, maybe you wait on it a little bit for the healer to get out of position or someone to over extend and then you roll in a CC. That is the idea at least, but I am pretty confident that they won't be able to do it. I have heard every expansion that they want to slow down damage in pvp and every expansion it just gets more and more out of control.

Me being overprotective over CC is a result of people being hard pressed against CC. Every time I come to these forums or anywhere else, I feel like there's always a bunch of people whining over CC and how they want everything to be nerfed and/or removed. My defensive posts are basically a way to remind some people how important CC is to the game overall.

I understand what you're saying, I'm not saying millions of CC = more skill to the game and I do understand that too much CC causes people to get away with mindlessly spamming it. I'm just being overprotective because I'm afraid they're going to take too much away from the game and its just going to feel slow.

[gestapo]

Undead can break a fear with WotF, and then break any CC with their trinket.

If memory serves me correctly the trinket incurs a shared cooldown when wotf is used, so you can't use it back to back.

WotF is a wildly different breed of racial than anything else in the game - the only remotely similar thing is Gnome root break - but nobody plays gnomes competitively.

They will come WoD, which is great. Less people playing Humans is a good thing, let's have some variety for crying out loud. EMFH is still superior to Wotf for pretty much any dps spec. Healers, arguably Wotf & Smeld are tied with the edge to Wotf I think. It (EMFH) should at least have the cd increased since it was untouched.

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I assume you play on EU, EU is alliance dominated and US is Horde dominated. Just like in Cataclysm, US was Alliance dominated and EU was Horde dominated. You're basing it off your own perspective and putting it out as a "fact." That's fine, I do the same thing, but I'm just calling it out when I see someone else do it.

There's a reason why almost every single wizard is undead and almost every single horde rogue is undead. And no it's not because everyone likes to play undead or the animations. It's because the damage gained from Blood Fury means nothing for those classes and the fear break is much more powerful when you stack it with shaman tremor totem.

The 45 second internal cool down is basically a slap on the wrist to an overpowered racial. No good undead user needs to break every single fear, its the most important fear that counts, you know the one that's mean to stop you from doing damage or helping a team mate. It's absolutely frustrating to see someone playing undead break a well placed fear just because he's undead.

Damage on the other hand can be stopped. You can anticipate and stop burst damage. All the human racial does is add more damage to retarded damage that you don't even need. Unless you play a Warrior or Death Knight where damage means everything, the human racial is just "powerful" but not overpowered.

I think you're underestimating how good EMFH is and at the same time overvaluing Wotf.

Obviously the whole horde/alliance thing is moot, as you pointed out on each continent there's one faction that dominates, and neither is because of racials. However, if you do want to look at just the US, Orcs are more prevalent than UD: http://www.arenamate.net/?region=US&...g=0&ladder=3v3

And there's an incredible imbalance in favour of humans on EU: http://www.arenamate.net/?region=EU&...g=0&ladder=3v3 but obviously this is because other alliance racials pale in comparison.

I'll agree that forcing people to wear PvP trinkets did tone down how OP EMFH was.

Orc is not the most popular for wizards and rogues, undead still have that title.

I only included pure dps and omitted hybrids, but you get the idea: http://www.arenamate.net/?region=US&...class_filter=9

Orc racial is the best racial for DPS on Horde. Healers will pick Wotf for obvious reasons.

The only two non shaman classes that is orc dominated are Warriors and DK's. I even think Orc Warriors are better than human Warriors because people forget that you get Crit by using a Trinket. Human Warriors just get Strength and a little more pvp power where as Orcs get 3% more crit, stun reduction and Blood Fury which almost makes up for the human dps trinket.

Actually you'll see that around 52% of Warriors on EU are Human while just under 33% of Warriors on US are Orc. Once again, this obviously speaks to how the non-human alliance racials are lacking, but Humans are a superior choice for a DPS class.

You can't nerf human racial or else it's completely worthless. It's one of those things that you either have to remove or just keep.

I'd prefer the remove it and put in something else.

You still think EMFH = WoTF, but as the mod says, it's not true. WoTF is a fear break on top of a trinket. EMFH is just more damage on top of a trinket. They're not the same thing. You can't just make EMFH 3 minutes or else every human would have to use the trinket slot like every other race. Undead would then just be superior over humans because they would have a fear break and a 2 minute trinket.

They could up the cd on EMFH to 3mins and make it only break certain types of CC. Maybe stuns & incapacitates? There you go.

I play both Undead and Human and honestly while I like the extra retard damage on my Human Warrior/DK/Rogue, my undead characters of those same classes enjoy the fear break more. I just feel more powerful on my undead characters than I do on my human characters. And when I'm on my human Warrior and I see an Undead Rogue break my intimidating shout, it gives me all the more reason to go back to my Undead Warrior.

Meh, and I feel the other way around, especially as Warrior too. Also, there's very little that breaks Intim Shout - something that also needs looking into in regards to it's damage threshold.

[Shamanegans]

I assume you play on EU, EU is alliance dominated and US is Horde dominated. Just like in Cataclysm, US was Alliance dominated and EU was Horde dominated. You're basing it off your own perspective and putting it out as a "fact." That's fine, I do the same thing, but I'm just calling it out when I see someone else do it.

I do play on EU and you must admit yourself that it is human dominated, simply because of the racial. I am not putting it out as "fact" it is a fact. The US ladders are dominated by horde yes but it isn't all showing undead is it? no, it is mostly orcs because of the stun resist. Stun is a more effective CC than fear is so people are flooding to orc to reduce that and they also get a racial that increases pet damage. Most classes use some kind of pet. There is very few that don't summon some kind of minion. So they gain a bit more (again) damage.

You can't nerf human racial or else it's completely worthless. It's one of those things that you either have to remove or just keep.

Exactly, imo they should have looked into this racial a long time ago and replaced it with something else.

You still think EMFH = WoTF, but as the mod says, it's not true. WoTF is a fear break on top of a trinket. EMFH is just more damage on top of a trinket. They're not the same thing. You can't just make EMFH 3 minutes or else every human would have to use the trinket slot like every other race. Undead would then just be superior over humans because they would have a fear break and a 2 minute trinket.

I play both Undead and Human and honestly while I like the extra retard damage on my Human Warrior/DK/Rogue, my undead characters of those same classes enjoy the fear break more. I just feel more powerful on my undead characters than I do on my human characters. And when I'm on my human Warrior and I see an Undead Rogue break my intimidating shout, it gives me all the more reason to go back to my Undead Warrior.

You would rather play undead as a DK over an orc? that is just silly tbh. Orc gets stun resist, pet damage, Blood fury and (depending on what weapon you use) crit. Orc offers way more to a DK than undead ever does if you are choosing an undead over an orc then you are simply going for aesthetics.

I have both an undead and human too and would always prefer my human racial to my undeads. The extra damage they can do when they line up a proc and their on use burst is just absurd. Every toon I make I want to PvP on it and I will always look to make a human before anything else because of that racial.

[spinner981]

Fear breaks from damage, it is threshold based so that DoT effects don't make the ability useless.

Obviously.

So, so, so, so obviously.

Freezing trap breaking serpent sting being applied by arcane shot says hi.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

Yes, agreed. Things like Icebound Fortitude should not be usable while stunned.

[Yvaelle]

Freezing trap breaking serpent sting being applied by arcane shot says hi.

On the beta it feels like Fears now break on any damage as well.

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I do play on EU and you must admit yourself that it is human dominated, simply because of the racial. I am not putting it out as "fact" it is a fact. The US ladders are dominated by horde yes but it isn't all showing undead is it? no, it is mostly orcs because of the stun resist.

Nope, NA top end is like ~90% horde, and the race-deciding logic is:

Horde?

- Yes -> Class playable by Undead? - Yes -> Undead (pretty much 100% of Undead-able Horde are Undead at high ratings)
- No -> Druid/Shaman? - Yes -> Choose between Tauren / Orc (~50/50 for these)
- No -> Hunter? - Yes -> Orc

[gestapo]

On the beta it feels like Fears now break on any damage as well.

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Nope, NA top end is like ~90% horde, and the race-deciding logic is:

Horde?

- Yes -> Class playable by Undead? - Yes -> Undead (pretty much 100% of Undead-able Horde are Undead at high ratings)
- No -> Druid/Shaman? - Yes -> Choose between Tauren / Orc (~50/50 for these)
- No -> Hunter? - Yes -> Orc

I don't think that's entirely accurate. And the stats have been roughly the same all expansion: http://www.arenamate.net/?region=US&...g=0&ladder=3v3

Also, what's the breakpoint for 'top end'? I know top mage players prefer undead, but besides that?

[Hand Banana]

I feel like this got way off track, people are just discussing racials now somehow. Which, by the way, human racial seems to be the least of our concerns in WoD with some of the changes (like gnome).

Pre-emptive cc breaks promote skillful play and I think thats a good thing, but it would need to work better with the DR system.

[Yvaelle]

I don't think that's entirely accurate. And the stats have been roughly the same all expansion: http://www.arenamate.net/?region=US&...g=0&ladder=3v3

Also, what's the breakpoint for 'top end'? I know top mage players prefer undead, but besides that?

Well for example:

http://www.arenamate.net/?region=US&...900&ladder=3v3

In the top 100, there are three outliers to the logic tree I suggested above - 2 Orc Warriors and 1 Orc DK - everyone else who can be Undead is Undead. That still means that 31% are Orc, to Undead's 37% - but again - it's only because some of the stronger classes right now can't be undead: Druids, Hunters, and Shamans.

Orc Warriors and DKs aren't terrible choices either - because Warrior have multiple fear break / reflects / interrupts anyways - and DKs do as well, albeit to a lesser extent. So even though they are making the 'wrong' choice by the logic tree I posted, it's not terrible - Warriors and DKs have other solutions to deal with fears - and again - they are 3/100 that I skimmed through.

I feel like this got way off track, people are just discussing racials now somehow. Which, by the way, human racial seems to be the least of our concerns in WoD with some of the changes (like gnome).

That's why we're talking about it though - people think EMfHS is a CC break - it really isn't. It says something about breaking CC, but the tooltip is wrong - what it really does is allow you to equip a second DPS trinket.

Pre-emptive cc breaks promote skillful play and I think thats a good thing, but it would need to work better with the DR system.

Agreed

I'm actually really excited for this model change - assuming they carry it through to other CC break abilities


Edit: Speaking of which!

@Holinka @Celestalon Any plans to change Lichborne / Berserker Rage to immune but not break Fear, like Tremor?

[Hand Banana]

Agreed

I'm actually really excited for this model change - assuming they carry it through to other CC break abilities


Edit: Speaking of which!

@Holinka @Celestalon Any plans to change Lichborne / Berserker Rage to immune but not break Fear, like Tremor?

Nice. Now if it still puts you on DR with the fear that would be great. Nothing like immuning a fear than catching a full howl 5 seconds later..

[Yvaelle]

Nice. Now if it still puts you on DR with the fear that would be great. Nothing like immuning a fear than catching a full howl 5 seconds later..

Ya that should be a thing too!