2,5 year break, a lot has changed - I need help.

[shortleif]

So after not having played my rogue since WotLK (more or less, I did do 1-2 months of Cata) I've now come back to:

• A pretty much complete overhaul of the talent system.
• From what I've read Combat seems to be pretty weak nowadays(?)
• Rogues are seen as a weak class
• WoD changes are bad/boring

This can all be read up on here in the forums, I bet I can find the best builds and rotations as well, but I'd love to get a summary with more of an overview, mindset wise on what's change in both PVP and PVE from a rogue point of view.

PVE used to be all about topping the meters with either a Combat or Assasination build, you'd be responsible for lockdowns and interrupts.
PVP as a rogue has, to me, always been amazing and why a rogue has been the class I've been coming back to more or less since launch. It was all about control, I was the master of long cooldown based CC chains and lockdowns with great on demand burst and the hardest melee to lockdown due to great movement and escapes.

But what I'd like to know more about is what has changed and why, in a theoretical way?

[Deleted]

can't comment on the overhaul as i'm a product of MoP and only ever seen this system so i'll skip that point

From what I've read Combat seems to be pretty weak nowadays(?)
if you've read combat is weak right now (im talking pve) you've been reading some wrong info as its currently overall the best of the three specs

Rogues are seen as a weak class
if they're preceived as a weak spec, could be, but i don't feel weak doing good dmg while taking care of important raid mechanics cause...you know, we dont die when we stand in stuff that needs to be soaked, we can run around on a belt with cooldowns up for every single one of them, 2 rogues can easily kill an engineer using 1 button etc.

also: its just a sim ofc but simulationcraft .org/reports/Raid_T16H.html

WoD changes are bad/boring
dont have beta access yet, but yeah, guess we're in stealth when class changes are discussed over at blizzard

all that was from a PvE point of view, i dont pvp much, but i do like to play sub in arena's/bg's once in a while and it still brings control and burst imho, but indeed, from what i understood rogues are very under represented in the top ranks

[Kuntantee]

Been playing rogue since 3.0. I can't remember any fundamental change.

[wangsta]

Been playing rogue since 3.0. I can't remember any fundamental change.

i've been playin since 1.05 (or somethin like that) and there are alot of changes. revealing strike for combat, ghostly strike, etc. ....i still remember backstabbin as combat and stuff like that. but ye, nothin really huge (tho im not sure any other class had a total overhaulin of its mechanics apart from maybe hunter goin from mana to energy.). As it was mentioned like a milion times here and basically everywhere, the CP stuff should have been like like 5-6 years ago or more

[shortleif]

i've been playin since 1.05 (or somethin like that) and there are alot of changes. revealing strike for combat, ghostly strike, etc. ....i still remember backstabbin as combat and stuff like that. but ye, nothin really huge (tho im not sure any other class had a total overhaulin of its mechanics apart from maybe hunter goin from mana to energy.). As it was mentioned like a milion times here and basically everywhere, the CP stuff should have been like like 5-6 years ago or more

Yeah I've been readin posts where people mentioning stuff like "when at 10 CP"... isn't the max 5 and have always been?

[Kuntantee]

i've been playin since 1.05 (or somethin like that) and there are alot of changes. revealing strike for combat, ghostly strike, etc. ....i still remember backstabbin as combat and stuff like that. but ye, nothin really huge (tho im not sure any other class had a total overhaulin of its mechanics apart from maybe hunter goin from mana to energy.). As it was mentioned like a milion times here and basically everywhere, the CP stuff should have been like like 5-6 years ago or more

I think Shaman, Hunter and Paladin had overhauls but I can't remember how fundamental they were.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah I've been readin posts where people mentioning stuff like "when at 10 CP"... isn't the max 5 and have always been?

New 90 Talent, anticipation let you stack combo points up to 10.

[shortleif]

New 90 Talent, anticipation let you stack combo points up to 10.

I'm not 90 yet, but I looked it up at wow head, looks pretty amazing as it removes the fear of going over CP-cap i.e. critting a mutilate at 3 CP only to miss out on seal fate.

These are the things I want to know about. I don't need all the nitty gritty details, but more of a "You can/should do this now." The whys I'll dig out myself. It's just hard to find something when you don't know what you're looking for.

[Kuntantee]

I'm not 90 yet, but I looked it up at wow head, looks pretty amazing as it removes the fear of going over CP-cap i.e. critting a mutilate at 3 CP only to miss out on seal fate.

These are the things I want to know about. I don't need all the nitty gritty details, but more of a "You can/should do this now." The whys I'll dig out myself. It's just hard to find something when you don't know what you're looking for.

As I've said, the way each spec plays is not changed since I started on 3.0. We can survive a bit more, and a bit mobile and that's it. Since you are familiar with WotLK and Cataclysm style, you should feel just at home. I just don't understand how you feel a huge change.

[Deleted]

Where did you read that combat is the weakest spec and rogues are considered a bad class on these forums?

[Kael]

Where did you read that combat is the weakest spec and rogues are considered a bad class on these forums?

Could be in regards to PvP... otherwise it didn't happen with any post from the current (long) tier of raids on MMO-C rogue forums.

[Jeina]

Combat is OK at lower gear levels. It doesn't really start to shine until you get up to SoO gear.

[Xar226]

1. The talent system is certainly overhauled, but it's not hard. Particularly for rogues, there is almost always either an obvious best choice, or the row just really doesn't matter much.

2. Combat is the top rogue spec at high gear levels, it's definitely not weak.

3. Rogues aren't weak in general. Warlocks are a bit OP so they make everyone look "weak," but you'll have no problems doing good DPS as a rogue.

4. WoD didn't make many rogue changes, so you could say they're boring. It doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother other people.

All that said, I think Combat is strongly dependent on getting the Assurance of Consequence trinket out of SoO. Until then I'd rock another spec. For me, I pretty much ended up playing every spec in PvE this expansion: With low gear levels I started out as assassination, then I transitioned to Sub and eventually to Combat. I can't really remember if it was due to patch changes that caused me to switch or if it was just increasing gear levels.

There's a lot of similarity between specs. In terms of their differences, I'd say Assassination is all about the poisons and Envenom uptime; Sub is pretty much about optimal usage of Shadow Dance/Find Weakness uptime; and Combat is all about your CDs, which is why that trinket is so powerful. Otherwise all the rogues are keeping up Slice and Dice, keeping up rupture (with various degrees of importance put on that -- super important for Assassination, single-target/full-duration-only for Combat) and using their third finisher otherwise.

You'll get back into things quickly, it's not a hard class to master. As soon as you hit level 90, run out to Timeless Isle. Run around looking for treasure chests (in particular, there are two large chests--Google around for a map for the chests) to get a nice collection of ilvl 496 gear. PvP weapons make a nice intro gear set as well. Kill any of the four celestials out on the island each week for a chance at a punch of PvP gear or PvE tier Gloves or Pants. The legendary quest line is a huge DPS increase, but it takes a long time to complete and as close as we probably are to the next expansion, or at least 6.0, it's really up to you if you want to push it. I don't think you'll regret it, but at the same time it takes a minimum of three weeks even with the buffs Blizzard is handing out on weekends to help.

It's not 100% clear to me what you're asking for, so hopefully that helped a bit.

[shortleif]

TEXT

It's not 100% clear to me what you're asking for, so hopefully that helped a bit.

Thanks it helped a lot! And legendary quest sounds like fun, is it expensive?

Yeah as always with big open questions, you can't get straight easy answers. Maybe I should've just asked "What's the 3 biggest changes for rogues, according to you, since the Cataclysm?" Or similar.

Since some people can't grasp what I'm meaning with huge changes I'll try a few more examples of what I've noticed so far:

• Trivializing builds since I only get talents once every 5 levels (Not necessarily a bad thing).
• I apparently have an execute ability.
• I can have 10 combo points.
• Slows used to be countered by vanish, dispel, sprint or cloak - now theres a mashable skill/talent to break them.
• Which means you don't take shadow step, because it's BAD for movement compared to burst of speed.
• Subtlety is apparently viable for PVE, but is not a clear choice for PVP(?)... like W-T-F
• Glyphs have been overhauled, can't really find anything useful tbh.
• Hemorrhage is a DoT, not just a debuff.
• Backstab seems to hit like a wet noodle.
• You can apparently, or at least I've read so, kill people before they can see you thanks to subterfuge.
• Cold Blood is gone? T_T
• I kick things, but it doesn't seem to work - or am I just missing ~50% of my kicks? (this is not vs. bosses with weird shields or anything like that.
• Where the hell is instant poison and what's up with not being able to use any two poisons I want. I understand the none/leathal mechanic. But why was this introduced?

That's what I can remember stumbling on so far. What else have I missed? And what would be the most effective way to level nowadays? Just quest my way up, using what spec?

[Kael]

15 levels to a talent, but that's not rogue specific. Vaguely more choice now? Nothing compared to most other classes, of course, but the occasional talent swap for reasons - like BoS vs. Shadowstep (ShS is still standard for most PvE content).

Assassination had an execute in cata, we just changed the name of it from backstab to dispatch (and disabled its 60e form cost, and gave it a proc).

Sub is still the only super-serious arena spec, for worse or worse.

Treat hemo the same way for now; keep it up. Glyphs... yeah. Depending on what you're doing, there should be an obvious one or two, and a lot of "whatever".

Rogues do not burst hard enough to kill people in Subterfuge unless you're using local buffs (Isle of lols), or have a huge gear advantage over the enemy, or find them at extraordinarily low health.

We had no real choices in poisons, either, so they made it more straightforward. Realistically, nothing changed, except that you can now have your damage and cripple (instant baked into deadly as before, but directly).

Kick is on you, sorry.

[shortleif]

15 levels to a talent, but that's not rogue specific. Vaguely more choice now? Nothing compared to most other classes, of course, but the occasional talent swap for reasons - like BoS vs. Shadowstep (ShS is still standard for most PvE content).

Assassination had an execute in cata, we just changed the name of it from backstab to dispatch (and disabled its 60e form cost, and gave it a proc).

Sub is still the only super-serious arena spec, for worse or worse.

Treat hemo the same way for now; keep it up. Glyphs... yeah. Depending on what you're doing, there should be an obvious one or two, and a lot of "whatever".

Rogues do not burst hard enough to kill people in Subterfuge unless you're using local buffs (Isle of lols), or have a huge gear advantage over the enemy, or find them at extraordinarily low health.

We had no real choices in poisons, either, so they made it more straightforward. Realistically, nothing changed, except that you can now have your damage and cripple (instant baked into deadly as before, but directly).

Kick is on you, sorry.

Thank you!

Gonna look into my kick problem, might be lack of snowfall keypress or ISP probs.