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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeruge View Post
    - Replace with Storm Elemental Totem then.
    - Use it properly, I get amazing usage out of it.
    - So? I'm not seeing what it being a talent has to do with exclusivity of other air totems.
    - 1) Glyph it and it's not. 2) So?
    1) doesn't even make any sense. It's not a dps but utility cooldown. and unlike SLT, SET locks other air totems out for a long time. SET is not a replacement for SLT to begin with.
    2) I think we established before that you're only doing pve, or at least do not participate in competitive pvp much. As such please stop comenting on pvp issues. CPT is horrible there.
    3) Talents are usually not that heavily restricted
    4) Glyphing means it will have a longer cooldown, so it's still a weaker spellreflect. And even if cd/effect were the same, it would require a glyph slot, so it would be still weaker in that regard. GT is a weaker Spellreflect, end of story. Totems in general are weaker than other stuff. The 1totem/element restriction is out of place, end of story. There is not a single justification as to why totems have all these drawbacks, end of story.

    Spend a day in 1.8k+ ranked pvp, or at least attempt to reach it, before you comment on the severe lack of quality of totems in pvp.

    If you really believe you should be able to have a Storm Elemental damaging and healing, a grounding totem absorbing/reflecting a spell, unimpaired movement for 6 seconds and a 5-second stun (when you learn how to use it properly) at the same time as all the other different elemental totem effects and non-totem abilities you have, then all I'll say is thank the Gods you are not a game designer. Stick to your day job.
    I believe you should have the option, yes. Using all your cooldowns at the same time is possible for essentially everyone besides us. It is for most times not very smart to do so, but at least other classes dont have to cut their utility for other utility. What justification can you bring for Storm Elemental preventing grounding and other air totems? The other two talents are not particularly stronger/weaker, and dont have such drawbacks.
    Does a rogue cancel his sprint when using vanish, or evasion? No. We shouldn't either.

    Also, don't bother replying with "BUT <insert class here> GET <insert list of abilities you can't defend against here>". Homogenisation is bad, remember? Every class is different. Let's put it another why. Why DO you believe you should be able to do all that at the same time?
    Wether homogenisation is good or bad, it's there and we cant avoid being bad because we are only on the losing side of it. Our good stuff is given to others in equal/better versions, but we either dont get what others have or only in severely lackluster ways. Spare me your "homogenisation is bad" lines, when every melee has instant gap closers but us, every melee has either no cd or instant cast CC except us, and nearly every melee has a good stun, except us. Spare me your "unique is better", when we're the only ones expected to cut our own utility for other utility, or the only ones with pets tied to immobile sticks.

    Good game design != laziness. They've changed so many things in 10 years, if they wanted to change it, they would have done so when they changed the totem system in this expansion.
    Yes, they simply dont want to is also an option, but it is not excluding laziness either. Laziness is merely a more diplomatic word of putting it, rather than opening the "ban-inc" box of pandora by claiming they dont care about us, dont want shamans to perform well in pvp, or have a deep-rooted hatred against the classes' community.
    Totems were good game design 10 years ago. Assuming it was such perfect design it did not require ANY improvements to it for all this years is the height of ignorance. The totem tier is basically a "shut up, this will fix it" move from blizz with a "people use it, so we wont change it" added. The best thing they ever did tot totems was excluding buff totems from them. Yes, the best thing about totems currently is to not have them. FACT.

    I just gave you the explanation, and it's more than logical, it's good game design. I don't defend Blizzard per sé, I defend good game design.
    Was it because it is, according to you, good design? Or because if it were bad, blizz would have changed it by now? Yes, good explanations indeed. If you really think being able to use totems freely would be overpowered, then you haven't yet realized the tip of the iceberg of what other classes are capable of. Shaman pvp utility pales in comparison.

    I see your "stop defending blizz cos i h8 wot dey du der4 u r a fanboi" and raise you a "Stop attacking Blizzard because you're useless at identifying what makes good game design".
    I see good game design in new EotE (could maybe see improvement in terms of shocks being affected but otherwise really cool, wish it'd be baseline, as it'd be a big contributor to prio/rota gameplay), LL perk and others. If you think I am just aimlessly "attacking" blizz, think again. I am merely looking at the bigger picture by comparing the tools we have to others. And we are worse of in nearly every scenario.

    I get that playing in your little pve-sandbox leaves you without complains, but if that is so, stick to it and dont butt in when people are complaining about pvp stuff.
    I get that hex and cpt are fine where you perform, but they aren't in bgs and arena on higher rankings. The same holds true for mobility, totems in general (and talents affecting them/being affected by them), selfheal/survivability and other big sacrifices.
    Last edited by Omanley; 2014-08-01 at 05:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  2. #22
    Stood in the Fire Zeruge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    dont butt in when people are complaining about pvp stuff.
    Lol I forgot totems don't exist in PvE.

  3. #23
    Lol I forgot totems don't exist in PvE.
    Frankly its almost true. Beside HST and Fire totems, earth totems will be usefull for just a boss per raid and air totems a boss per xpac.

  4. #24
    Stood in the Fire Zeruge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raghnar View Post
    Frankly its almost true. Beside HST and Fire totems, earth totems will be usefull for just a boss per raid and air totems a boss per xpac.
    Sorry, I forgot raiding was the only PvE content.

  5. #25
    Sorry, I forgot raiding was the only PvE content.
    I'm glad I refreshes your memory.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeruge View Post
    Lol I forgot totems don't exist in PvE.
    Their drawbacks hardly matter, as they do for hex, or selfheals.

    All that matters for a dps in raiding is enough dps, and the bare minimum of mitigation to avoid instant deaths, the rest is optional.

    Hex having a cd AND cast time is hardly an issue when often enough there's enough cc even without you, and with a 1m duration and casted before pull it's hardly an issue. Plus hexed npc move like polymoprhed, unlike hexed players.

    As for totems: Most monsters will hardly ever kill a totem, so being destroyable is hardly an issue in pve. Most totems are hardly ever used in most pve situations as well, so the 1totem/element rule is much less a drawback. Also if the raid is considerate enough and the fight not to mobility heavy, immobility of totems isn't as bad as in pvp either. And for the most part, you're not silenced either.

    It is obvious that players will exploit weaknesses that AI will not, so obviously all these drawbacks we argue about are of actual significance there, unlike in pve. They are not "good game design", as they completely ignore the existance of pvp. Half of shaman's toolkit is designed in such a fashion, so people get pissed.

    I can come out right now that I am happy with how enh looks in pve. They did great stuff to how the spec works there, nothing to critisize except small details maybe. In pvp however, it's an entirely different world.

    Unique design for shamans means a big "BUT" (or several) on every ability.

    Berserker Rage: self buff, 30s cd, works while cced, makes immune for 6s, usable while silenced (of course), done

    Tremor Totem: aoe effect, 1m cd, works while cced (soon to be nerfed), only removes on pulses for 6 sec, destroyable, removes other earth totems (SBT, EET, EBT..), not usable while silenced, are we done yet?

    Shamans would leap with joy to get Bersi Rage instead of current Tremor Totem, yet Tremor will be nerfed, but Bersi wont, for the sole advantage TT performs over BS: being aoe. Odd, huh.
    Shaman treatment, as always.
    Last edited by Omanley; 2014-08-01 at 06:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Their drawbacks hardly matter, as they do for hex, or selfheals.

    All that matters for a dps in raiding is enough dps, and the bare minimum of mitigation to avoid instant deaths, the rest is optional.

    Hex having a cd AND cast time is hardly an issue when often enough there's enough cc even without you, and with a 1m duration and casted before pull it's hardly an issue. Plus hexed npc move like polymoprhed, unlike hexed players.

    As for totems: Most monsters will hardly ever kill a totem, so being destroyable is hardly an issue in pve. Most totems are hardly ever used in most pve situations as well, so the 1totem/element rule is much less a drawback. Also if the raid is considerate enough and the fight not to mobility heavy, immobility of totems isn't as bad as in pvp either. And for the most part, you're not silenced either.

    It is obvious that players will exploit weaknesses that AI will not, so obviously all these drawbacks we argue about are of actual significance there, unlike in pve. They are not "good game design", as they completely ignore the existance of pvp. Half of shaman's toolkit is designed in such a fashion, so people get pissed.

    I can come out right now that I am happy with how enh looks in pve. They did great stuff to how the spec works there, nothing to critisize except small details maybe. In pvp however, it's an entirely different world.

    Unique design for shamans means a big "BUT" (or several) on every ability.

    Berserker Rage: self buff, 30s cd, works while cced, makes immune for 6s, usable while silenced (of course), done

    Tremor Totem: aoe effect, 1m cd, works while cced (soon to be nerfed), only removes on pulses for 6 sec, destroyable, removes other earth totems (SBT, EET, EBT..), not usable while silenced, are we done yet?

    Shamans would leap with joy to get Bersi Rage instead of current Tremor Totem, yet Tremor will be nerfed, but Bersi wont, for the sole advantage TT performs over BS: being aoe. Odd, huh.
    Shaman treatment, as always.
    if you are gonna dismiss anything that isn't PvP don't be surprised when your opinions are dismissed too.
    Everything that is, is alive.

    Agaor - Enhancement Shaman

  8. #28
    Totems are the best and they should never be deleted from the game imo

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Tebayo View Post
    Totems are the best and they should never be deleted from the game imo
    I agree that they should not be removed, but they sure have issues that can be resolved.
    Everything that is, is alive.

    Agaor - Enhancement Shaman

  10. #30
    So they lengthened Tremor Totem to 10 seconds. That's a nice increase to uptime but, doesn't really help that fact that it was mostly used by Shaman to get themselves out of fears.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chubathingy View Post
    But anyway it's OK to be jelly of the tallest midget.

  11. #31
    Field Marshal CID-77's Avatar
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    Getting to predict a 10 second window every 1 minute when it's important not to get feared, or anticipating a fear when a certain class moves in, is more interesting gameplay than WOTF or a trinket in the form of a totem.

    The predicting aspect of totems is precisely what I love about them. The same goes for Capacitor Totem. Dropping it at the right time and catching someone with it because I predicted where they would be in 3 to 5 seconds is awesome. A lot more awesome than popping an instant stun like any other class. If Totemic Projection became baseline (still have my fingers crossed) even more clutch plays become available. Currently Call of the Elements is simply too good to pass up.

    Sure totems aren't the most effective compared to instantly popped skills/talents other classes have. But it's the core mechanic that makes me main my Shaman.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Lavindar View Post
    if you are gonna dismiss anything that isn't PvP don't be surprised when your opinions are dismissed too.
    I dont dismiss pve, it's just that drawbacks hardly matter there, and that's a fact, as I explained in detail. I did pretty much everything in both pve and pvp, from dungeons to battlegrounds, from raids to arenas, from doing old content to achievement hunting, and aside from old content where you solo, the only instance in which all these shaman drawbacks screw you over is when your enemies have the intelligence to exploit them => pvp.

    Pve for the most part, I'd say it's fine. Adjust numbers here and there, and you're fulfilling your quota. How abilities are designed is optional, as I said. It's not dismissing, it's a logical conclusion reached from logical thinking. You're free to prove me wrong, instead of claiming me dismissing stuff.

    Totems and many other shaman abilities are essentially like someone tuned their car to run faster than average and then they step on a f1 track (pvp) where they suddenly have to compete and are severely outclassed. It would normally not be a problem, but totems in pvp are supposed to compete with other stuff. IN pve you avoid that issue, for the most part.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shamantime View Post
    So they lengthened Tremor Totem to 10 seconds. That's a nice increase to uptime but, doesn't really help that fact that it was mostly used by Shaman to get themselves out of fears.
    That and the fact that it is still 5hp dont really adress much, should the enemy decide to just destroy it (and why wouldn't they?). A reduced cooldown instead would be the go to choice. 30s with 5% shaman hp maybe (same as bersi rage), seeing how BS will still work while cced, work while silenced, provide immunity, is undestroyable/undispellable and not immobile, nor cancelling other stuff/being cancelled by it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  13. #33
    Mhmm but, couldn't Druids dispell BR with Soothe? I thought it was an enrage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chubathingy View Post
    But anyway it's OK to be jelly of the tallest midget.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by shamantime View Post
    Capacitor Totem isn't necessarily bad but, it's a skill-cap for Shaman and once you get properly get it off the reward is big.
    It's not a skill-cap.
    Landing a Capacitor is not having skillz.

    I really wonder why we are supposed to spend many times more effort than anybody else to achieve a similar results on very simple and basic things like a stun.

    Capacitor Totem is a pain in the ass, that's what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by shamantime View Post
    Mhmm but, couldn't Druids dispell BR with Soothe? I thought it was an enrage.
    So, what's your point?
    Grounding Totem can be dispelled by a critter.

  15. #35
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    Our good stuff is given to others in equal/better versions, but we either dont get what others have or only in severely lackluster ways
    I'm going to preface this by saying, that I agree that there's an issue with totems in pvp. However, comparing abilities one-to-one doesn't work; never has and never will. If warriors have a better version of grounding, tremor (added in with mobility, gap closers)....then go play a warrior. Likewise with saying other classes have similar tools but they're better...go play them.

    Comparisons are moot.

    We don't need better tools because some other class has them...we need better tools (totems in this case) because OUR toolkit is lacking (for pvp) and totem mechanics are archaic and not functional.

    One of my suggestions is for there to be more consistency with how they are able to be destroyed. Shadow priests, for instance, can't SW:P or Mind Flay our totems. Not 100% on this, but I believe they are limited to killing totems with Mind Blast and Mind Spike. Point being they have to cast an ability to destroy the totem. On the other hand, spells like Moonfire and Icelance work just fine. That needs to change, imo.

    Same with melee destroying them, there should be some cost (time-wise) to kill them. Make it so the totem can withstand x number of melee hits.

    At the very least, it adds some gameplay. I'm kinda tired of the whole "let's make the totem have some % of our health" deal. Eventually, classes end up doing so much dmg, that it ends up not being beneficial anyways.

    Totems aren't an issue because of another class. There just an issue, period.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  16. #36
    Field Marshal CID-77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shell View Post

    Totems aren't an issue because of another class. There just an issue, period.
    Amen. Lets keep focusing on presenting good ideas to improve them.

  17. #37
    I disagree that comparing abilities is wasted time. It's the fundament for balancing. If you just ignore what everyone else runs around with and throw in random numbers or mechanics, you end up either underpowered or overpowered. Shamans are at the losing end of that phenomenon.
    I compared our stuff to warriors because a warrior has several abilities that are similar to our owns, so it's natural to compare them. Note that with WoD warriors will also have access to a 6s cd aoe snare, which is basically a merge between frost shock and ebt, without any of either's drawbacks. Blizz, as I said, is not afraid to make our stuff seem increadibly weak. They couldn't give two shits about stuff we are supposed to be good or better than others in, and hand it out, as I said, in better versions, to others. They will nerf TT on the premise that it is aoe effect and therefor stronger no questions asked further and then go to warriors and give them a superior in every aspect aoe snare just like this, in addition to a brainless snare procced from melee attacks (as if warriors needed a aoe snare on top )

    Wether you compare us to warriors, monks, ferals, death knights or rogues, enhancement is on the losing end.

    Comparing enhancement's mobility to the rest which is simply better is only logical, as a melee requires uptime to produce pressure. If your speciality is burst (enh mop), uptime during that burst is the minimum you'd want (ascendence provides that with attacks on range). If it's sustained, you need frequently avaiable gap closers, either something like burst of speed, or an instant gap closer. Other stuff than a often usable sprint with breaker/freedom, or an frequently avaiable instant gap closer, simply wont do. Pvp is designed around melees having that stuff, casters/hunters are designed around that with their escape/mobility stuff (except ele, which is back t turret style).

    Yes we need better tools. We need better mobility because everyone elses is better, and because we will be focused on sustained dmg as enh come WoD. And we WILL need big buffs to survivability, because ours will be shit come WoD with all these nerfs, wether it's mitigation or selfheal, doesn't matter.
    We DO need a lot of improvements to totems, because everyone elses's stuff is not that restrictive (comparision, it works).

    Spells like icelance and moonfire are annoying, but they are not nearly the only reasons why destroyable totems are bad. Many totems make simply no sense in that regard. Why, for instance, should our aoe snare be destroyable when nobody else's is, tell me that. Your suggestion in limiting it to certain spells and a certain number of melee hits is interesting though, nice idea .

    And again, yes, they are bad because of other classes. Homogenisation is what made them bad, and blizzard's lazyness when it comes to giving totems unique advantages to balance out unique disadvantages.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CID-77 View Post
    Amen. Lets keep focusing on presenting good ideas to improve them.
    There's essentially two ways:
    -lowering/removing restrictions, while looking at the individual totem's role when deciding which restriction to lower/remove.
    -making a complex balance networks for totems, as shell suggested for the circumstances to fulfill for destroying them, and similar for immobility, 1totem/element, and not while silenced

    The first is easy, the second is unique, and prone to blizzard's screw-it-up tendency.

    Either way, they'll choose neither, and keep totems as they are for another expansion, while making totems even more obsolete. At this rate, my probable course would maybe really be a warrior, since he can do A LOT of the stuff enh can do, but mostly better. He can even dispell undispellable stuff, has reliable stun, reliable instant cc, less restrictive selfheal, better mobility, better tremor/grounding/ebt, no totem restrictions, less clusterfuck aoe, a slowly diminishing, poolable recource that is not as restrictive as for example energy, good/better burst in addition to good sustained which is supported by excellent mobility...

    What exactly has enh over arms, really? Class flavour, that's it (and it's the reason I love shaman in the first place, and why I have used these forums to express my disdain for the course the classes' design has taken for the last 6 1/2 years. Look at all those famous yt gladiators, like swifty, or bahjeera...they play warriors. Look at the comparison between the two and how they compare in high ranked arena (arms being the most played spec in total, enh being at ~3% of played specs or so).
    Last edited by Omanley; 2014-08-03 at 07:34 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  18. #38
    So the AoE fears from Warlocks and Priests are remaining but our very useful easy to counter anti-Fear AoE totem is getting nerfed...

    Maybe this is a good time to give up on any PvP'ing I do on the shaman...

  19. #39
    Another nerf brought to you by PeeeVeeeePeeeeee!!!

  20. #40
    Totems are a big reason why no one plays the Shaman class anymore. I remember in Wrath we heard how Blizzard would finally rework them for Cataclysm....Didn't happen. Then in Mists they just shit out a new design philosophy where they would be designed as more significant cooldowns that have great impact yet that is still pretty much not the case. None of the totems actually got stronger or more meaningful and some of them stayed exactly the same. Nice rework!

    The core mechanics of shaman are still so poorly designed yet Paladins got like 2 major class reworks that were more successful and clearly had more work put into them. "Oh shit, Pallies don't have a meaningful resource and blessings/seals don't make sense in the game anymore? FIX IT! NOW! Shamans don't have a meaningful resource, shocks are the least significant and interesting core class mechanic in the game because everyone has a better instant cast nuke since BC, and totems still don't offer any real gameplay benefits or unique playstyles? Who cares, no one plays shaman anyway, why fix it?" Well no shit no one plays Shaman...they're the most poorly designed class in the game because you don't put any work into them which has created a vicious cycle. They have the fewest meaningful mechanics, are the most clunky class in the game, and their identity has been pigeon-holed and marginalized over time. If Blizzard ever put in any meaningful effort to fix these pointless issues then people wouldn't have rerolled to better designed classes.

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