1. #1

    Question Garrosh P4 Malice help

    Hey y'all. So my guild got to P4 for the first time last night and we're trying to figure out how to arrange Malice 2 & 4. Group comp is as follows:

    Tank - Prot Warr

    Dps:
    Surv hunter (me)
    Boomkin
    Arcane Mage
    Fire Mage
    WW Monk
    Ret Pally
    Frost DK

    Healers:
    Holy Pally
    Disc Priest

    We have the boomkin kite the iron star when it spawns (since travel form makes it ridiculously easy), and my thoughts for Malice 4 is that I would pop deterrence and one of our pallies can bubble through it. We haven't given much thought to malice 2 except Yolo'ing it and keeping 4 people in there until the iron star spawns. A few questions though. About how long does malice 2 go on when the bombardment start? And how long is a malice phase from beginning to end? I heard if I double-deter malice 4 I'd pretty much take no damage at all. Also, does that "kill yourself with the knife" strat still work, or has that been hotfixed?

    Here's a copy of our logs from last night if anyone's interested in giving some constructive help:
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...x3XgM#fight=24

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    On malice #2 you can soak it as normal as long as your raiders are good at spreading, you can however fail and get 2 ironstar so for your first kill i would play it safe and do this.
    With 2 secs left to bombardment call a spread and then your ret and we monk moves in ontop of malice(taking a tic of dmg then using diffuse magic and bubble) your kiter stand on the edge of malice and all these stay untill star have spawned.

    On malice 4, hunter and holy paladin soak with double deterrance and bubble(make sure everyone else spread as soon as malice is up and ignore boss dps just focus on not spawning a iron star...
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  3. #3
    This is how we play it:

    For the 2nd Malice simply spread out 3 seconds before bombardment starts and have your soaking group plus the kiter (atleast 4 people to spawn ironstar) or someone else stack on the maliceguy to spawn the ironstar - as soon as the star spawns that group can spread out aswell and run over to garrosh.

    On Malice 4 we spread out as soon as malice starts and leave the soaking group (This time only 3 People - Maliceguy + 2 soaking ppl, so we dont get an iron star) behind, wait until bombardment is over and get back together, then just kill the boss within the next malice.


    You can easily let someone die in Malice #4 as you will have enough time even with the extra energy, just dont freak out

  4. #4
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    You can soak at least 3/4 of the 2nd Malice normally, and could do it all depending on how fast you get spread afterwards. For a 1st kill I'd say that getting out a little early is probably better - have your DK and WW stay in for the last couple of ticks and use their defensive CDs. That leaves you with the other pally as a backup for 4th Malice if either the hunter or the assigned pally get the 4th Malice on them. If you weren't aware, mages can soak that with Iceblock as well, so if you have deaths prior to that but are still going then that's a backup option for your backup.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    You can soak at least 3/4 of the 2nd Malice normally, and could do it all depending on how fast you get spread afterwards. For a 1st kill I'd say that getting out a little early is probably better - have your DK and WW stay in for the last couple of ticks and use their defensive CDs. That leaves you with the other pally as a backup for 4th Malice if either the hunter or the assigned pally get the 4th Malice on them. If you weren't aware, mages can soak that with Iceblock as well, so if you have deaths prior to that but are still going then that's a backup option for your backup.
    Yes, it can be soaked with iceblock. However it's a last resort as you can't move with iceblock and bombardment is going on during malice 4. That means the person who gets malice is either going to get hit by bombardment or move away from the iceblock.

    If you could get a rogue in there they're great at soaking that malice as an oh shit option if the hunter/pally get picked by malice 4. They're actually a better choice than paladin in my opinion.

  6. #6
    Looking at your logs it looks like (at least with your last attempt of the night) you've got your strat down pretty well and DPS is good enough to be pretty lenient with how you're handling stuff.

    For Malice 2 (it really shouldn't be that big of an issue, just make sure to spawn 1 Iron Star) if you're going to coordinate anything for that.

    As long as the Iron Star is properly kited into Garrosh and hopefully everyone is still alive...you're done with the fight with your damage. If you spawn a couple of adds here and there, its really not the end of the world, just get your tank to pick them up, he'll live (We're considering just zerging it by not interrupting the cast because we can, but its not something you would do for a first kill)

    For Malice 4 - Use Mobile Immunities, set 2 people Hunter/Paladin works great, but have 1 back up, because remember the 4th Malice could be on the hunter. As a last resort you can use the mage to soak via ice block, just remember they can't move during bombardment.

    Alternatively, for Malice 4 with your comp...if something tragic happens, just have that person die quickly....your raid's DPS is high enough and the boss will be dead in a few seconds after the 2nd bombardment.

    Best of luck, you guys are close to a kill!
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    You can soak at least 3/4 of the 2nd Malice normally, and could do it all depending on how fast you get spread afterwards. For a 1st kill I'd say that getting out a little early is probably better - have your DK and WW stay in for the last couple of ticks and use their defensive CDs. That leaves you with the other pally as a backup for 4th Malice if either the hunter or the assigned pally get the 4th Malice on them. If you weren't aware, mages can soak that with Iceblock as well, so if you have deaths prior to that but are still going then that's a backup option for your backup.
    Sounds great! Question about 2nd Malice is, who can we have as a backup if the DK or Monk becomes the target? Maybe the Disc priest can run in and top himself off?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearsyn View Post
    Looking at your logs it looks like (at least with your last attempt of the night) you've got your strat down pretty well and DPS is good enough to be pretty lenient with how you're handling stuff.

    For Malice 2 (it really shouldn't be that big of an issue, just make sure to spawn 1 Iron Star) if you're going to coordinate anything for that.

    As long as the Iron Star is properly kited into Garrosh and hopefully everyone is still alive...you're done with the fight with your damage. If you spawn a couple of adds here and there, its really not the end of the world, just get your tank to pick them up, he'll live (We're considering just zerging it by not interrupting the cast because we can, but its not something you would do for a first kill)

    For Malice 4 - Use Mobile Immunities, set 2 people Hunter/Paladin works great, but have 1 back up, because remember the 4th Malice could be on the hunter. As a last resort you can use the mage to soak via ice block, just remember they can't move during bombardment.

    Alternatively, for Malice 4 with your comp...if something tragic happens, just have that person die quickly....your raid's DPS is high enough and the boss will be dead in a few seconds after the 2nd bombardment.

    Best of luck, you guys are close to a kill!
    The first time we got a clean P4 attempt he was down to 15% when he casted that thing where all the adds come up and rape us, and that was despite the mass pandemonium that we had when malice 4 came. So is there any detriment to having the 4th malice target die? I read in earlier threads that all the remaining Malice stacks go off at once and we just get blown to bits....but I could be wrong.

    And thanks Hoping to get this fucker down tonight.

  8. #8
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowfeather View Post
    Sounds great! Question about 2nd Malice is, who can we have as a backup if the DK or Monk becomes the target? Maybe the Disc priest can run in and top himself off?
    The Druid should be the backup for the 2nd Malice because he needs to be there anyway to get the Iron Star to spawn as it takes 4 people. Make sure you keep in mind that it does take 4 people, so you should always have your druid/dk/monk there, and assign someone else to be the 4th if one of those 3 gets the 2nd malice (if someone else gets it then that person is now the 4th).

    Quote Originally Posted by Crowfeather View Post
    The first time we got a clean P4 attempt he was down to 15% when he casted that thing where all the adds come up and rape us, and that was despite the mass pandemonium that we had when malice 4 came. So is there any detriment to having the 4th malice target die? I read in earlier threads that all the remaining Malice stacks go off at once and we just get blown to bits....but I could be wrong.

    And thanks Hoping to get this fucker down tonight.
    There's not necessarily a detriment to having the 4th Malice target die, except that you are then immobile so your soakers can't keep moving through bombardment, which really shouldn't be too big of a deal. Its way way better for that person to die than worry about dodging bombardment and getting out of range of the soakers. It needs to be drilled into the heads of everyone in the raid - if you get the 4th Malice your only goal is to stay within range of the 2 soakers. That's it. Literally nothing else matters. You can all do a slow walk through bombardment to where you will be stacking up afterwards, but that's really unimportant. In order to make it easier to dodge some of the bombardment while still moving I've seen groups that have the 4th Malice person and the soakers stack on the wall and move together from there, as it makes it easier to coordinate their movement but the movement part is really the least important aspect of it.
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  9. #9
    hmm, I never thought of walking along the wall for 4th malice. So just to clarify, Wilderness, if the malice target dies, that purple circle is still there until all the ticks go out?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Crowfeather View Post
    hmm, I never thought of walking along the wall for 4th malice. So just to clarify, Wilderness, if the malice target dies, that purple circle is still there until all the ticks go out?
    Yes

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  11. #11
    My advice might be a bit out of place, but I'll just tell you how we've been killing Garrosh for weeks now.

    You see, if you manage to get to phase 4, other things aren't really that important. We never really cared about malice 2; we just wait for the iron star announcement and then spread out. On some kills we had 2 stars pop here. Not really a problem - we just move it into garrosh before the cast for some extra damage - we usually have something like MA or good personals at that point. Even if 1 DD dies it's not really a problem - by the time garrosh does his cast and the star hits him, he's already around 15-18%. We also don't really give a damn about Malice 4 - we're yet to have a single kill without a star spawning here. Once again, this star doesn't really do anything dangerous.

    Garrosh's phase 4 is a joke, at least in 10-man.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa View Post
    My advice might be a bit out of place, but I'll just tell you how we've been killing Garrosh for weeks now.

    You see, if you manage to get to phase 4, other things aren't really that important. We never really cared about malice 2; we just wait for the iron star announcement and then spread out. On some kills we had 2 stars pop here. Not really a problem - we just move it into garrosh before the cast for some extra damage - we usually have something like MA or good personals at that point. Even if 1 DD dies it's not really a problem - by the time garrosh does his cast and the star hits him, he's already around 15-18%. We also don't really give a damn about Malice 4 - we're yet to have a single kill without a star spawning here. Once again, this star doesn't really do anything dangerous.

    Garrosh's phase 4 is a joke, at least in 10-man.
    Yeah we pretty much figured out that malice 2 is a nothingburger and won't nuke the shit out of you at the end. Last night we got to P4 five times. First try we failed to spawn a star. Second try we got the star and hit Garrosh at the right time. Malice 4 went up on the boomkin, while myself and the holy pally popped our defensives and stuck with him. Problem was that he ran to the tank, which spawned a star, AND the rest of the raid spawned a 2nd star, which pretty much wiped the raid at 1%. :P The other attempts, we spawned the star but failed to hit Garrosh at the right time, but like you were saying LaplaceNoMa, we were getting him to 15% by the time his cast went off. Next time we get a clean hit we're gonna kill him. But thanks for the heads up that spawning a star during 2nd bombardment isnt' the end of the world.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mallacham View Post
    This is how we play it:

    For the 2nd Malice simply spread out 3 seconds before bombardment starts and have your soaking group plus the kiter (atleast 4 people to spawn ironstar) or someone else stack on the maliceguy to spawn the ironstar - as soon as the star spawns that group can spread out aswell and run over to garrosh.

    On Malice 4 we spread out as soon as malice starts and leave the soaking group (This time only 3 People - Maliceguy + 2 soaking ppl, so we dont get an iron star) behind, wait until bombardment is over and get back together, then just kill the boss within the next malice.


    You can easily let someone die in Malice #4 as you will have enough time even with the extra energy, just dont freak out
    This is how we do it as well. We've had very few issues in a couple months of kills this way.
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  14. #14
    If you don't have a ton of 'soakers' for malice 2 just remember that you don't need real soaking classes to deal with it. The 'normal' group soaks the first 4-5 ticks. Then the last 2-3 ticks are done by the "soak" group. Plus since most groups spawn the iron star at malice 2, you might as well leave the primary target + 4 people with minor cds. Literally any class can do malice 2. You don't need immunities. Just decent personals.

    If you are getting malice 4, then that is the only one that you have to actually get some real soaking go.

    Hunter + mage is perfect. Hunter 2x deters, mage iceblocks. Malice target does NOT move and dies if hes in fire because the mage cannot move once hes iceblocked. Put the 2nd mage there as backup in case mage #1 / hunter are the primary target.

    for malice 2 I would honestly put the 2 mages (only with greater invis since they need iblock for malice 4) + the windwalker monk + the primary target with 1 backup at least (prob ret paladin bubble or holy paladin with bubbles). Sometimes it makes sense to have an extra person on malice 2 there to ensure an iron star spawns (in case someone derped before and died) so that is why I listed 5 people but we never spawned an iron star at malice 2 in 10 man. And its pretty hard to spawn 2 stars unless if all 5 of those people are really not paying any attention and running together. Clump checks don't spawn iron stars within the same clump within the same second. Its like every 2-3 seconds after bombardment starts that he checks for a new clump.

    Anyhow if tldr - don't fret about malice 2. Keep extra people if you want there. They only need to hold 2-3 stacks at most. Risk of iron star #2 spawning is low unless if there is total derp.
    Malice 4 - You need some coordination. Hunter keeps deterx2 + mages save iceblock. 2nd mage only goes in w/ iceblock if first mage / hunter are primary target. DONT MOVE if you have fire under you for malice 4 and you are the primary target.

    About how long does malice 2 go on when the bombardment start? - I'm almost positive there are 7 ticks for each malice. I can't give you a timer but this corresponds roughly to ~15 seconds. I don't use an addon to track malice ticks so there might be 8 ticks, but 7 sounds right.

    I heard if I double-deter malice 4 I'd pretty much take no damage at all. - Yes do this. Make sure you have a 2nd deter in case you derp and deter'd too early. You CAN get by with 1 deter if you take the first 1-2 ticks, deter, stacks fall off, then take last 1-2 ticks. Its just safer with deterrence x2. A healer can stay back and heal you in between the deter if you derp'd and only had 1 deter.

    Also, does that "kill yourself with the knife" strat still work, or has that been hotfixed - the kill yourself with knife iirc resulted in the malice completely vanishing off of the killed target. It no longer does this.

    The whole point of it was mostly in 10 man when they had to deal with iron star for malice 4. Clump check used to be 3 in 10 man, 7 in 25 (pretty sure it was 7). 25s didn't have that big a problem for malice 4 spawning an iron star because primary target + 5 immunity soakers = 6 people. Thus, in 10 man, most guilds did not want to deal with malice 4 at all as it would automatically spawn the iron star unless if you had perfect positioning (because of your 2 "soakers" + the primary malice target = auto spawn an iron star unless if the 2 soakers were on direct opposite sides and on the very edge of the malice which isn't always possible because if one of your 2 soakers were already in position and malice went on them.... then you would require a few seconds of repositioning). You used to be able to dagger if you had malice 4 and it would completely disappear which didn't make much sense.

    After the dagger hotfix, but before the january nerfs, you essentially had to deal with malice 4 spawning a star. BUT You could still use a dagger and people STILL DID use it. The thing is malice would not disappear now. You still had your 2 "soakers" but there was no 3rd target since the 3rd target killed him/herself off. Thus an iron star is not spawned. So basically you still had to have 2 soakers, just no iron star.

    I think there were some reports where using the dagger after the dagger hotfix in november resulted in all the charges of malice instantly going off, but I think that was fixed quickly before the nerfs happened in january.

    Now with the nerfs in january (or whenever, I forget. Took a break shortly after siege / paragons in nov/dec), you required 4 people for a star. Thus the problem is solved. No dagger needed.

    The other issue with spawning an iron star on malice 4 between that hotfix period and the january nerfs was that if you had someone like a mage doing the soaking, then that person cannot exactly move while sitting in an iceblock. Thus the iron star that would spawn would pretty much auto fixate them (closest person) and... yeah. Of course with other soaking classes this didn't matter as you can move with d bargain, bubble, deter etc. But just something to think about.

    I think 25s used to do dagger strat just because.... why the hell not? Malice 4 was / is kind of a pita but yeah that is the whole deal with dagger and what-not.

    Now I am sure I missed something so someone will come in and post what I said was wrong about dagger... so take it with a grain of salt. My guild quit for a good bit after siegecrafter, barely killing paragons before stopping for about 3 months and coming back to finish the tier. So yeah
    Last edited by Gardiff; 2014-08-02 at 12:39 AM.

  15. #15
    Thanks for the info, Gardiff! Yeah we can definitely have one of the mages iceblock 4th malice and make that part pretty much idiot-proof. Still thinking it would be better as a whole for one of the Paladins to bubble through it so we can move and all survive, but bubble's only 8 secs where double-deter & iceblock are 10 secs, which may literally mean the difference between life and death.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowfeather View Post
    Thanks for the info, Gardiff! Yeah we can definitely have one of the mages iceblock 4th malice and make that part pretty much idiot-proof. Still thinking it would be better as a whole for one of the Paladins to bubble through it so we can move and all survive, but bubble's only 8 secs where double-deter & iceblock are 10 secs, which may literally mean the difference between life and death.
    you still can take 1 hit (even2) in malice 4 which is enough for malice person to position itself to safer place

  17. #17
    Just to give y'all an update, we got him!!!!! Thanks for all the advice, fellas!

  18. #18
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    For people in this thread for future reference, I would have just put a barrier down on malice 2 for any soaking you need to do, devo the hit from the iron star, gg. Personally, I've never had a problem with soaking malice 2 normally because if you just spread when you see the graphic from the first iron star (and already be on the edges of the circle doing the normal malice soak), you should only have one tick left or so, and then by the time your raiders react and spread, that last tick should go out.

    The timing is a little jenky, but once you get it down, we decided not to even have an immunity/soak group for malice 2 any more.

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