10 man heroic raiding being taken away from us

[ACES]

You can still do 10 man Heroic, just not 10 man Mythic. If you care that much about being in a 10 man group rather than a larger 20 or 25 man group raiding isn't for you.

[AeneasBK]

Good riddance

Thirding this, for 2 main reason

a) Cool design being cut to cater

b) I prefer 25 man, and the existence of 10 man hampered that on my low pop server.

*shrug* selfish reasons, sue me

[Enosh]

yep it's going to hurt the game and I predict a decline in mythic rading population

but i consider WoD a "blizzard needs to learn some lessons again" expansion, let them just get it out of their system see that it fucked things up and then maybe next expansion we can go back to something reasonable

[Zoldor]

You can still do that, just do it in the formats that require laughably minimal amounts of raid organisation, just like 10man heroic today

Okay I see you are really proud of being a 25 man raider. Lets not lie though, the organization of the actual fights isn't that much harder and most fights are statistically easier and have a larger margin of error for 25 man than 10 man. The only person who is doing anything more in a 25 man than a 10 man is the raid leader, everyone else can actually fail a little more in 25 man than in 10 man and get away with it. Its been discussed tons of times across tons of forums, the only person with any sort of increased problems or responsibility in a 25m is the raid leader. Everyone else is almost unaffected, unless the raid lead fails to fill the group.

As strictly a player 25m is no harder than 10m. As a healer its even easier cause you can spec soley into AE healing and just spam AE heals and be a completely adequate healer. I've healed both 10 and 25 up to MoP from there it was strictly 10m due to Guild collapse.

The only qualm I have with the change to raiding is the the change in 6.0 removing 10m heroic (mythic will replace both 10 and 25m heroic, its obvisouly easier to sit 5 people than gain 10 people at the end of the expansion). Wish they would have left SoO out of the raid conversion and let that soley be an expansion thing. I do agree that one size for heroic is a great plan and will allow for much more awesome fights. I just wish they had chosen the size two expansions ago and that it was 15 over 20. I can live with 20, but I think 15 is an easier core group to acquire and sustain. It could also lean toward a tougher tuning.

[fixx]

Its been discussed tons of times across tons of forums, the only person with any sort of increased problems or responsibility in a 25m is the raid leader. Everyone else is almost unaffected, unless the raid lead fails to fill the group.

Movement during encounter, especially precise spreading out is always more difficult to execute correctly in 25man raid because there's more people that can potentially screw it up.

[Zoldor]

Movement during encounter, especially precise spreading out is always more difficult to execute correctly in 25man raid because there's more people that can potentially screw it up.

Not that bad based on how big they make the rooms now and its easy to argue the counter point of spreading out in 10 man and having to cover sections becomes a hassel. But really its the same you look at your DBM range box if the circle is green you're doing it right. But it can be an issue for both depending on the actual mechanic. I think Malkorok is the only boss this tier with a small room. Definately some stuff in HoF that was too small for a 25 to have much fun. First guy can't think of his name off hand.

[LilSaihah]

hah, good

look

if you want to have content where DA BES OF DA BES are competing, you gotta have a level playing field
that includes player numbers

[Nemah]

What is there to actually discuss here?

it will be awesome and a great improvement to the current structure.

it won't be missed.

they should have never made 10 man heroic equal to 25 man heroic after Wrath in the first place.

I enjoyed 10 man heroic raiding, but it was never how it should've been. I'm looking forward - hugely - to mythic.

[Thirteen]

Thank Elune 10/25 are gone is all I can say. Hard to believe that actually lasted for 2 expansions.

yep it's going to hurt the game and I predict a decline in mythic rading population

but i consider WoD a "blizzard needs to learn some lessons again" expansion, let them just get it out of their system see that it fucked things up and then maybe next expansion we can go back to something reasonable

This is the "back to something reasonable" expansion.

[Ludafrank]

I raided 10m in wrath cause that's all my comp could handle and fell in love with it. It feels like the perfect size to create a tight nit community to spend a few hours a night with and yah it sucks that that part of the 10m party size will be gone but the positives outway that. If they only tune for 20m they can, and should, make it so everyone's role is important and things are much less forgiving than they currently are in 25 meaning you shouldn't feel like you're carrying ppl.

[TrollShaman]

I'm all up for 20-man mythic raiding, infact leader's been trying to recruit people since it was announced, and we have at least half a year to do that.

What do you guys think if mythic was chopped to 15-man? Just curious.

[Sicarius87]

2 pages...not 1 person outside the OP hates the change. Guess the OP has to quit playing the game since he basically refuses to adapt.

[Axelond]

I was in a 10 man guild when mythic was first announced. About 2 months later I ended up leaving the guild and transferred to join a 25 man guild and really 25s are just way more fun imo.

[WanderingBreezes]

Look, you're on a terrible forum if you want objectivity. People who legitimately understand that this killed 10 man raiding and inconvenienced 25 man raiders aren't nearly as vocal here anymore as they've had eleven months to get over it.

[Bigbazz]

In Cata they killed the 25man raiding guild and in WOD they will kill the 10man raiding guild.

Mythic raiding really interests me though, until I see the raiding requirements of the guilds doing it. Is it so much to ask for a top 100 guild that only raids at night and only needs me for 2 nights/6 hours weekly? I guess it is. It's strange to see all these 25man guilds that went 10man in Cataclysm that are now trying to scrub together some sort of raid team to make a 20man for WOD, most of them failing so far..

People want to raid at the high end and calling "Heroic" mode the same thing doesn't change the fact that it no longer reprisents the same thing, having a forced raid size is moving away from the last few years, I'm not against the idea but they killed it off and nailed the coffin only to dig it up a few years later and start playing with its insides..

[Ulfhedinn]

20 man only is the way it should have been to begin with... current heroic raiding has a tendency to screw over 10s or 25s. It also takes a lot longer trying to balance those two and they never really can.

It also means they can make Mythic raiding harder in WoD.

[goblingirl]

it won't be missed.

they should have never made 10 man heroic equal to 25 man heroic after Wrath in the first place.

^^ This.

I grew up raiding in EverQuest where multiple full raid groups would head into the Planes together (because it was just that crazy). All these people whining that they can't handle raiding with more than 10 people? 10 people used to be a regular old dungeon group in vanilla WoW.

The 10 man raid size broke the game in a lot of ways. Not least of which is the effect it had on guilds (pop quiz: 2 tanks, 6 healers and 17 dps, OR 2 tanks, 3 healers and 5 dps - in a game that's always had a finite and low number of competent tanks, which raid size allows more dps and healers to enjoy raiding?).

I loved Karazhan as a zone, but it destroyed my guild. We went from a very successful 40 man team with 3 tanks to a guild that fielded 2 Karazhan runs a week, 1 of each 25 man raid a week, and sat a bunch of people out of all of those, many of whom quit the guild for other guilds, other servers, or outright lost interest and quit the game.

Then they went and made 10 man loot as good as 25 man loot which sealed the doom of big raiding.

Raiding never should have been a small group activity. That's not what a raid is. A raid is a big bunch of people going to take down a big, bad monster. If you want a small group activity, the dungeons are that way ---->.

[Zenotetsuken]

20 man only is the way it should have been to begin with... current heroic raiding has a tendency to screw over 10s or 25s. It also takes a lot longer trying to balance those two and they never really can.

It also means they can make Mythic raiding harder in WoD.

Yeah, that is pretty much my view on it as well. Personally I feel that it is one of the only things that they are doing with MoP that actually makes the game better.

I feel that they should just make ALL raiding 20 man, but have some smaller raids for half size groups similar to what ZG/Kara/ZA were back in their time. It would bring back the friendly competition between guilds which would help to start rebuilding the community, bring the whole raiding scene back to a level playing field for everyone, and allow them to spend their time on creating more raids instead of balancing everything around 5 different raid sizes/difficulties.

Honestly I would personally rather just do 10 mans, but they have just never been healthy for the game.

[Maoli]

i have a feeling i will unsub as soon as i raid mythic a few times

you'll never unsub because you'll have no way to raid mythic i thought you said??

[cFortyfive]

most fights are statistically easier

Show me some of those statistics and please don't come with first tier cata encounters.