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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Didacticus Syntacticus View Post
    People don't buy the game just to be funneled into playing "last tier's content", just because they're not hardcore...
    Once again... the player would still be able to play the latest tier on LFR. It's almost as if I am attempting to make a point to rock. Nearly every person that reads this assumes that I want LFR to disappear or for no gear to drop for the casual player. Not in the slightest but points like this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Didacticus Syntacticus View Post
    I don't see why people don't understand this, but, maybe, they're stuck at an emotional age of 14 or something.
    are entirely why I grief at the fact that most of the people who stand up for raid finder having access to better gear than the last tier's normal are just... short-sighted? lack mental capacity? I don't know. We honestly have to resort to this stupid insult? Grow up, Didacticus. I am looking for some reasonable logic beyond childish dribble. Saying that this would shut people out of the game is simply not true. It would purely identify effort and properly reward it. You are defending a flawed system that you probably desperately need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Every other person in the thread I shall call names!
    I specifically avoided the name calling. Calling a point invalid or juvenile is not name calling. It is simply identifying that the post was written with little to no effort to provide any actual feedback. Or should we all just settle into a game that we are displeased with, qq and grief and insult, and never actually make proposals that could make the game better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    People are quitting in droves because theres no NEW content, not because theres no content.
    And... you are against providing some difficulty to the game to extend its lifespan. Yet, you want to Q about there not being new content. I TOTALLY get that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    when we stop caring how Jonny LFRraider got his gear and how our epeen will be smaller because Jonny got a few epics and just have fun doing our own thing

    why?
    why the fuck would I want a bunch of people who have no desire to be in normals outside of gear to be in normals?
    I'd rather take the people who actually want to see and do normals and leave plenty of loot and content for the lfr people who don't want to experience this, I gain nothing from forcing people who don't want to do normals into doing normals apart from more wipes and a more frustrating gaming experience for me
    Not even close to the post above. I quite literally never stated that people had to do normal. It would simply be a gear step above the next tier's LFR. Go back... read the post... then come and speak.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Back2Basics View Post
    And... you are against providing some difficulty to the game to extend its lifespan. Yet, you want to Q about there not being new content. I TOTALLY get that...
    The difficulty is there. LFR is NOT the place to look for that...

    Where did you get that I "q'd" about no new content? I merely stated its a reason many people quit. Try comprehending what I wrote, I couldn't make it much clearer.

    Anyway, I think your idea is stupid. I'm done debating it because it's clear its your little baby and even though its been proven to be stillborn you are going to be here defending it for ages. Have fun with that.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didacticus Syntacticus View Post
    People don't buy the game just to be funneled into playing "last tier's content", just because they're not hardcore. Why would ANYONE want to play a game that feels like it was designed just for 5% of the players and the other 95% can just go fuck off, no one cares.
    People in general like current things and new & shiny things, very few is interested in old and obsolete shit. As an concrete example Joe Average sees an advertisement of WoW for instant 90 and he has a friend who has talked about this latest raid Siege of orsomethingwhatever... Now if Joe picks up the game and figures out that the easiest difficulty setting meant for people like him who has very little previous knowledge is actually dumb piece of shit that allows him to play only old content from last year he'd definitely feel cheated. That's the reason why the inane requests like this thread will never happen.

    a) There needs to be a feasible way to get from fresh boosted 90 to current tier raid within few months of playtime, preferably few weeks if you're putting lots of time on achieving it, and
    b) There needs to be a way to catch up to your IRL friend who talked you over to joining the game also in few weeks if the friend helps you to get up to speed.

    Anything that limits either of those two points will never come to pass because it will hurt sales. Also people like the OP need to realize that having options to do old shit is still there even if you have the option to skip the old shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Back2Basics View Post
    Once again... the player would still be able to play the latest tier on LFR. It's almost as if I am attempting to make a point to rock. Nearly every person that reads this assumes that I want LFR to disappear or for no gear to drop for the casual player. Not in the slightest but points like this...
    LFR gear needs to be enough to get people into both next tier of LFR and at the same time this tier's flex. Lowering the gear levels several tiers behind will break one of those two requirements, most likely the requirement that current LFR gear needs to be adequate to start in current flex difficulty.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Back2Basics View Post
    Upgrades? Do those even belong in the game? Do you deserve an ilvl bump because you have done a few heroic scenarios?

    What you mean like you deserve tier sets and epics for afking through a glorified dungeon? Rather have upgrades than LFR any day of the week

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Back2Basics View Post
    ToT LFR: 502 ilvl SoO LFR: 528 ilvl
    ToT N: 522 ilvl SoO N: 553 ilvl
    ToT H: 535 ilvl SoO H: 566 ilvl

    We required such a hefty jump in item level because Blizzard- and a great deal of "casual" player base- have determined that we need the current LFR to be somewhere between the normal and heroic level gear of the previous tier. For what purpose? Are we assuming most people clearing normal need to gain upgrades through the LFR system in order to beat a normal boss in the next tier? Instead, think of how much more dramatically the ilvl's could have been consolidated had we approached the situation from a much more clear and rational approach.

    H Dung: 463 --> MSV LFR: 465 --> MSV N: 470 --> MSV H: 475 --> HoF LFR: 468 --> HoF N: 473 --> HoF H: 478

    I'm not saying these are irrefutable numbers... but the concept is there. Go back to move forward. Keep the older tiers more viable without making them mandatory. Give the players a reason to do normal and heroic in any tier without completely nullifying any value of previous tiers. LFR of each consecutive tier should make the normal mode of the previous tier easier without voiding the experience of any and all value.
    Yeah, you're absolutely wrong. LFR had close to no effect on the ilvl jump.

    The ilvl jumped that high because of thunderforged items, because of upgrades and because of progress. At the current skill level, encounters would be chewed alive if the jump between old hc/current normal and current hc was just 3/5ilvls.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    The difficulty is there. LFR is NOT the place to look for that...

    Where did you get that I "q'd" about no new content? I merely stated its a reason many people quit. Try comprehending what I wrote, I couldn't make it much clearer.

    Anyway, I think your idea is stupid. I'm done debating it because it's clear its your little baby and even though its been proven to be stillborn you are going to be here defending it for ages. Have fun with that.
    In no way did I propose that LFR should be harder. I didn't defend any point that you assume I am defending. How is reading this hard for you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    Yeah, you're absolutely wrong. LFR had close to no effect on the ilvl jump.

    The ilvl jumped that high because of thunderforged items, because of upgrades and because of progress. At the current skill level, encounters would be chewed alive if the jump between old hc/current normal and current hc was just 3/5ilvls.
    The ilvl jumped that high for a multitude of reasons including LFR. Beyond that, the ilvl increases were based around needing to feel this amazing bump to character power which should have never been necessary. 13 ilvls between N and H is a little extreme. And ~20 from LFR to normal is equally extreme.

    Look at the old content before the stat squish. Even a two level upgrade can seem great when the gear isn't in a ludicrous state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackelyn View Post
    What you mean like you deserve tier sets and epics for afking through a glorified dungeon? Rather have upgrades than LFR any day of the week
    Not even nearly what was stated. I do not support AFKing through any content... nor should any of the player base.

  7. #27
    The Unstoppable Force det's Avatar
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    ...and why do you think you deserve better quest greens in the next x-pac for a "Bring me 5 boar asses" quest than beating the endboss of the previous x-pac? Especially if you HAVE NOT beaten said boss?

    Geez, all these basement dwelling, weekend hobby game designers and devs
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ... there are lots of different types of players, with different amounts of time to play, and different tastes for the content and difficulty and time commitment they want to give to any of those pieces of content. The person that plays for an hour or so a few times a week is playing the same game as the person that plays five hours every night.....
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...261?page=8#154

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Back2Basics View Post
    Beyond that, the ilvl increases were based around needing to feel this amazing bump to character power which should have never been necessary. 13 ilvls between N and H is a little extreme. And ~20 from LFR to normal is equally extreme.
    Your feeelings has got very little to do with item level inflation. It's based on having big enough upgrade so that you're going to upgrade instead of settling for old stuff. Half tier difference (between regular and warforged) item currently is so small that most people just wont bother swapping the item for the extra cost of 1000vp, gems, enchants and reforging. Full tier up is already looking tempting enough to bother with it.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    a) There needs to be a feasible way to get from fresh boosted 90 to current tier raid within few months of playtime, preferably few weeks if you're putting lots of time on achieving it, and
    b) There needs to be a way to catch up to your IRL friend who talked you over to joining the game also in few weeks if the friend helps you to get up to speed.
    In no way is this relevant. I do not disagree that this process should take a "few months of playtime," but when you can level cap and get your gear to 520 within a week or two... you are not doing the game any justice. Hit 90, scour Timeless Isle for 496, jump into LFR and hit ~520 or better on week 1. That is not good for a game's lifespan. And to state that player's are entitled to be in the latest content within... a couple days of picking up the game... I refute that claim. You can level to 90 in about 5 days and Timeless gearing takes a few more hours. Then you are already in SoO LFR content. You have cut every tier of the current expansion which is new content!

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Didacticus Syntacticus View Post
    People don't buy the game just to be funneled into playing "last tier's content", just because they're not hardcore. Why would ANYONE want to play a game that feels like it was designed just for 5% of the players and the other 95% can just go fuck off, no one cares.

    Everyone should have access to the new stuff regardless of whether playstyle is casual, ultra-hardcore, or anything between. Period.

    I don't see why people don't understand this, but, maybe, they're stuck at an emotional age of 14 or something.
    Why play the game if you know you cannot commit enough to see the final stages ?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    ...and why do you think you deserve better quest greens in the next x-pac for a "Bring me 5 boar asses" quest than beating the endboss of the previous x-pac? Especially if you HAVE NOT beaten said boss?

    Geez, all these basement dwelling, weekend hobby game designers and devs
    This is not, and has never been, the object of this post. I agree that the new greens at 90 should not be as powerful as your H epics... and they typically are not. Welcome to the thread. Read it first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tandenstoker View Post
    Why play the game if you know you cannot commit enough to see the final stages ?
    LFR is still available. Lower ilvl for LFR. Not the point of the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    Your feeelings has got very little to do with item level inflation. It's based on having big enough upgrade so that you're going to upgrade instead of settling for old stuff. Half tier difference (between regular and warforged) item currently is so small that most people just wont bother swapping the item for the extra cost of 1000vp, gems, enchants and reforging. Full tier up is already looking tempting enough to bother with it.
    Item upgrading is already a flawed design. The upgrading system is not the point of this thread. VP changes, gems, enchants, and reforges were never the intended internal debate.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Rurts View Post
    - Blizzard *wants* raiders to participate in LFR, because, quite frankly, these people usually carry LFR groups, without them LFR becomes an intolerable wipefest and needs to be nerfed repeatedly
    However the average raid player knows this and stays out of LFR intentionally, some maybe even before LFR gear gets irrelevant for them. Which is soon enough anyway. What you see in LFR are mostly those that want gear for style, alts, enchant mats, legendary drops or just help others out for a change; that's why you're often seeing only 2 or 3 good players when LFR is out > 5 weeks. This is why we saw nerfs to ToT LFR bosses in 5.4 which speaks volumes if you asked me.
    There are too many design flaws in your game. As a result, your customers' game experience may be degraded. Fire or replace the failing developers if you don't want to see this message again.

  13. #33
    I actually like this idea, it was a lot of fun in previous expansions getting together with friends and guildies to do older raid content when the gear was still worth a damn, especially trinkets like some have mentioned, but also for "alt runs". Like for nights when we couldn't get all of our best players together for heroic ICC, instead we could go run heroic TotC or whatever, and still have the gear be useful for a lot of people.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Back2Basics View Post
    I
    The ilvl jumped that high for a multitude of reasons including LFR. Beyond that, the ilvl increases were based around needing to feel this amazing bump to character power which should have never been necessary. 13 ilvls between N and H is a little extreme. And ~20 from LFR to normal is equally extreme.

    Look at the old content before the stat squish. Even a two level upgrade can seem great when the gear isn't in a ludicrous state.
    I am looking at all the normal/hc content ever and it has always been 13ilvls between them to my knowledge. From a player in a top guild perspective,all bosses would die in a matter of a day or two if the normal/hc ilvl difference was any lower, hell if anything it should be higher. LFR is irrelevant.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    I am looking at all the normal/hc content ever and it has always been 13ilvls between them to my knowledge. From a player in a top guild perspective,all bosses would die in a matter of a day or two if the normal/hc ilvl difference was any lower, hell if anything it should be higher. LFR is irrelevant.
    You are absolutely right when you slap 800 agi, int, str on the same item that is 13 ilvls higher. Or you could scale a boss according to the amount. Scaling difficulty with gear is all that you're arguing right now. We are arguing about the fact the gear from LFR should be worse than the last tier's normal. Not whether 800 agility makes a heroic rogues dps higher than a normal rogue's.

  16. #36
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    No get off your high horse. Personally i think they should remove all raids and replace them with world bosses attacking towns/ citys, see how neither of us get our own way?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbeef View Post
    No get off your high horse. Personally i think they should remove all raids and replace them with world bosses attacking towns/ citys, see how neither of us get our own way?
    Integration of bosses into the world is not the argument. A cool idea... yet not anywhere near the current system.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Back2Basics View Post
    And to state that player's are entitled to be in the latest content within... a couple days of picking up the game... I refute that claim. You can level to 90 in about 5 days and Timeless gearing takes a few more hours. Then you are already in SoO LFR content.
    Nobody who picks up WoW for the first time today is going to hit LFR level gear in hours or days... or even weeks. Because new players don't know all the shortcuts available. Unless you're boosted it will take months. Also all the shortcuts are meant for veteran players who know what they're doing because they need to gear up their 12th alts. It's two separate groups and the game is working well enough for both of them. Not perfectly, but well enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Back2Basics View Post
    You have cut every tier of the current expansion which is new content!
    Regardless of which way you put it, anything before SoO is ancient content. Previous raid tier came out more than year ago which is an eternity when talking about anything connected to internet.

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