savage roar no longer passive?

[Exeris]

He's right tho, I can assure you most top PvE ferals actually enjoy feral for the complexity, and SR is that... as far as I can tell most people that don't like SR are either shitters, people that don't even play Feral as their main or non heroic raiders.

Mandatory maintenance buff that you are forced to keep rolling, nothing complex about it.

And imo one of the least imaginative abilities they have ever added.

[Dagzter]

Let's try to avoid being reductive here: no one is looking at SR in a vacuum and saying that it is in of itself a complex and rewarding mechanic. The 'complexity', if you wish to use that specific term, came into it when you strove to adequately interpolate SR into your gameplan with the myriad of other considerations relevant to Feral druid dps: maintenance of DoTs, DoC snapshotting, in particular Rune/Trinket procs, squeezing in FBs, efficient use of PS procs etc, and utilizing all of that to the best of your advantage. SR was simply another layer in this process. And, objectively speaking, more layers requires more concentration.

I don't think anyone argues that the ability itself is fun, difficult or imaginative, and I'm sure we'd all be open to a more interesting mechanic. It just doesn't seem to be on the devs radar, and has not been for a long time, so it basically is what it is...

I believe the reason some Ferals view it as 'more complex' is due to the fact that it was something else to juggle as you performed your role - the new glyph removes that aspect of Feral play; however, if you're used to utilizing SR as a matter of course, why on earth would you eat that dmg reduction%?

[Kaeth]

For leveling the glyph is awesome, makes life a lot easyer. But at competitive raiding 3,6% dmg difference is unacceptable. It's like making 380k dps instead of 400k. Sadly not using the glyph will be mandatory.

It's not even going to be a 3.6% damage decrease in practice. The glyph also gives you an additional finisher every 42 seconds and may provide a slight benefit in fights with a lot of target switching (no Savage Roar about to fall off when you need to put up a fresh Rip).

Maybe a 3% damage loss at the worst. That might be a deal breaker in Mythic, but there might be some ferals running this in Heroic (present-day normal) and Normal (present-day Flex). (Of course more than half will be using it in LFR.)

[Skadovsk]

Mandatory maintenance buff that you are forced to keep rolling, nothing complex about it.

And imo one of the least imaginative abilities they have ever added.

Not on its own, but when you have to juggle everything at the same time, it is.

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It's not even going to be a 3.6% damage decrease in practice. The glyph also gives you an additional finisher every 42 seconds and may provide a slight benefit in fights with a lot of target switching (no Savage Roar about to fall off when you need to put up a fresh Rip).

Maybe a 3% damage loss at the worst. That might be a deal breaker in Mythic, but there might be some ferals running this in Heroic (present-day normal) and Normal (present-day Flex). (Of course more than half will be using it in LFR.)

That additional finisher (FB) hits like a wet noodle, not worth it AT ALL.
Its been already discussed in FD I think, that it won't help on target switching unless under extreme circumstances that never actually happen.
It just won't be good for PvP either, its a trap glyph for lazy people, but a good stepping stone for people that want to learn and improve, the choice if yours.

[Kaeth]

That additional finisher (FB) hits like a wet noodle, not worth it AT ALL.

An additional 178.5% weapon damage every 42 seconds (4.25%/sec) may be a "wet noodle," but it isn't zero. If you're going to dismiss data out of hand and resort to hyperbole, just don't jump into math discussions.

Its been already discussed in FD I think, that it won't help on target switching unless under extreme circumstances that never actually happen.

I gave the one circumstance I can imagine under which it could happen, and while extremely rare that's more than "never." You really like that hyperbole, don't you.

[Skadovsk]

Hyperbole, math discussions, MATH.
You know we're on beta, and we're talking out of our asses most of the time right?
Most of the stuff we discuss is just not final and just assumptions, so yeah my assumption is that 178.5% weapon damage minus 50 energy every 42 seconds minus 3.6% overall damage is a negative number, so... never?

And that rare circumstance when the glyph is good for target switching has never existed on any past raid, so we can only assume, at least for now that its a never.

[teddabear]

in MoP Rip does about 800% more damage than FB and FB is getting buffed 20% so yeh that is still a wet limp noodle. Rip will come down without snapshotting but not nearly enough to make FB relevant.

[GatorAJ]

I'm uncertain if the posters saying Savage Roar is boring are being deliberately obtuse, or don't understand that the complexity of the ability comes from a lot more than "increased physical damage done" aspect of it. The complexity of savage roar, and the feral spec overall, isn't just that savage roar is a considerable damage loss when dropped, it's the difficulty in juggling that while also maintaining rip, rake, thrash, and the armor debuff.

I'm almost certain no poster thinks "I'm doing more damage when I press SR, I'm having more fun!", because we all know very well that we're balanced around that increased damage from it. This is the same reason something like a "Bleed buff or crit buff" baked into SR wouldn't be interesting, as developers would balance that in and it would be just another baseline DPS increase. The issue a many long time feral players are having with the glyph, and previously the talent, is that we've all become married to the 'one eye on the timer, juggling 5 different abilities uptime' style of play, and this waters that down.

[FeralSynapse]

the majority liking an additional button to press that does nothing that couldn't be granted with a passive? You kid yourself bro :P
Don't pull things like that out of the air, you can't speak for the majority of the players just by knowing what you and the few people you know think about a spell.

He's not pulling things out of the air. SR with DoC is pretty much heaven in terms of synergy. There was no reason for talent to be in the first place. If you cannot handle a simple 1 button buff or understand why creating easy Predatory Swiftness procs is good thing-then maybe feral is not the spec for you.

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He's right tho, I can assure you most top PvE ferals actually enjoy feral for the complexity, and SR is that... as far as I can tell most people that don't like SR are either shitters, people that don't even play Feral as their main or non heroic raiders.

Pretty much spot on Skadovsk. If you don't understand why SR is needed or good-you don't play your kitty optimally.

[Kaeth]

He's not pulling things out of the air.

Sure he is. Having a strong opinion does not imply that "the majority" shares your views. Did you contract Gallup to do a poll for you?

SR with DoC is pretty much heaven in terms of synergy.

Go look up synergy in a dictionary. Don't mind me, I'll wait. Now, please explain how a buff balanced around 100% uptime has "synergy" with a controlled temporary damage multiplier for your bleeds. In other news, equipping a weapon and wearing pants "synergizes" nicely with Rake.

If you don't understand why SR is needed or good-you don't play your kitty optimally.

I'll take insulting non sequiturs for failing at arguments for $1200, Alex.

[FeralSynapse]

Go look up synergy in a dictionary. Don't mind me, I'll wait. Now, please explain how a buff balanced around 100% uptime has "synergy" with a controlled temporary damage multiplier for your bleeds. In other news, equipping a weapon and wearing pants "synergizes" nicely with Rake.

Okay you want the 2 scent version? Sure thing. It is not viable to FB to create a PS proc sub 25%, the damage isn't worth it. SO the only other way to get the PS proc is to Rip or SR. Rip is completely counter productive in the long run. Doc is the top talent for a reason in PvE gameplay.

I'll take fail trolls that don't understand their class mechanics for 2,000 Alex.

[Kaeth]

It is not viable to FB to create a PS proc sub 25%, the damage isn't worth it. SO the only other way to get the PS proc is to Rip or SR. Rip is completely counter productive in the long run. Doc is the top talent for a reason in PvE gameplay.

That's actually a really good explanation. I wish you or someone else would have given it in the first place.

I'll take fail trolls that don't understand their class mechanics for 2,000 Alex.

I, personally, haven't mained my druid since the start of WotLK, so I don't even try to hide that I'm out of the loop on the nitty gritty details of feral dps mechanics. I tend to stick to the paladin and monk forums lately.

But if I were the subject of a Jeopardy clue, I really don't think I'd be above the $200 level. Frankly, I'm flattered.

[teddabear]

Maintaining Savage Roar is one of the easier parts of playing Feral. Probably the hardest - being prepared for trinket procs is being taken away in WoD. Bloody Talons / DoC is optional assuming Lunar Inspiration ever works. If you really think Feral will be too hard with Savage Roar in WoD you are definitely playing the wrong spec. The hardest part of SR was deciding when to refresh it since that would be a window where you are unable to take advantage of trinket procs. That will no longer apply. The fact that you are quoting FB damage down to the decimal point but have no idea how weak it is in comparison to Rip is peculiar.

[Irian]

Why is it even still an ability?

Between the new cat form talent that gives you access to all healing spells and the sheer amount of abilities cat druids still have that must be keybound as a whole, they really don't need Savage Roar. It's such a dull ability and doesn't really add any kind of gameplay.

I hope they reconsider and just remove it already.

[FeralSynapse]

That's actually a really good explanation. I wish you or someone else would have given it in the first place.

I, personally, haven't mained my druid since the start of WotLK, so I don't even try to hide that I'm out of the loop on the nitty gritty details of feral dps mechanics. I tend to stick to the paladin and monk forums lately.

But if I were the subject of a Jeopardy clue, I really don't think I'd be above the $200 level. Frankly, I'm flattered.

I apologize about my snakry tone. I assume most people would understand that in terms of why we want X to do Y. But then I do main my druid as feral and by proxy, raid progression/"mythic" now. I hear a lot of people whine about it when I fail to understand why they whine in the first place.

[Kaeth]

I apologize about my snakry tone.

Me, too. My own post even comes off rather trollish to me after a second reading. Sorry about that. Okay, I admit it -- I was trying to be trollish in the first place.

Coming from the point of view of someone who doesn't realize that it's presently superior to use SR rather than FB to fish for PS/DoC procs, Savage Roar comes across as this annoying "push this button to not suck" maintenance buff that has no engaging impact on gameplay other than to ... be maintained not to suck. Like Inquisition for ret paladins (which had its duration doubled in 5.4.0 and is going away entirely in 6.0), it's just a general drag on gameplay as opposed to those exciting damage numbers.

A more widespread awareness that it has an impact on gameplay (beyond "push this button to not suck") or can be "gamed" to squeeze out more damage might ease some of the hostility that a sizeable portion of the "casual" feral community has toward what is otherwise perceived as just a buzzkill. There we go; there's the word I was looking for.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the players who are excited about a glyph to make SR passive have zero overlap with the top-parsing ferals who know and use this interaction properly, and for this group a ~3.6% damage loss (based upon the present beta notes) -- because for them, SR is just a boring maintenance buff, and they're not gaming it -- won't be overly punishing for the content they're doing.

In my case, that content is just solo questing when I'm not being resto. So I'll probably keep on being a bad kitty (or worse still, a bad saberon) and roll with this glyph for my solo grinding. For that purpose it's tuned rather generously. But it's definitely a trap for any real raiding kitty.

[JaoStar]

Because many Ferals that actually play the spec at a high level enjoy Savage Roar and would not be happy to see it go.

The ferals who don't like SR are in the minority, they are just more vocal about that feeling than those who like it, and blizzard knows that.

The situation is resolved, don't like the spell? Glyph it. The talent never made much sense, a talent that makes the spec easier should not be a dps increase.

In PvE it's okay but I can't stand it PvP as your constantly being kited, stunned, and feared and so goes your precious seconds of damage increase go out the window. Seems to be it should be consolidated in another talent or given a second ability to make it worthwhile in PvP.

[FeralSynapse]

Me, too. My own post even comes off rather trollish to me after a second reading. Sorry about that. Okay, I admit it -- I was trying to be trollish in the first place.

Coming from the point of view of someone who doesn't realize that it's presently superior to use SR rather than FB to fish for PS/DoC procs, Savage Roar comes across as this annoying "push this button to not suck" maintenance buff that has no engaging impact on gameplay other than to ... be maintained not to suck. Like Inquisition for ret paladins (which had its duration doubled in 5.4.0 and is going away entirely in 6.0), it's just a general drag on gameplay as opposed to those exciting damage numbers.

A more widespread awareness that it has an impact on gameplay (beyond "push this button to not suck") or can be "gamed" to squeeze out more damage might ease some of the hostility that a sizeable portion of the "casual" feral community has toward what is otherwise perceived as just a buzzkill. There we go; there's the word I was looking for.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the players who are excited about a glyph to make SR passive have zero overlap with the top-parsing ferals who know and use this interaction properly, and for this group a ~3.6% damage loss (based upon the present beta notes) -- because for them, SR is just a boring maintenance buff, and they're not gaming it -- won't be overly punishing for the content they're doing.

In my case, that content is just solo questing when I'm not being resto. So I'll probably keep on being a bad kitty (or worse still, a bad saberon) and roll with this glyph for my solo grinding. For that purpose it's tuned rather generously. But it's definitely a trap for any real raiding kitty.

Completely agree to be honest. There is a huge misunderstanding of gameplay between those who understand why top Pve ferals are adamant to keep the ability vs lesser tier raiders who's gameplay it doesn't really impact. If DoC wasn't so far ahead of the other two talents, I could understand not wanting to deal with the debuff myself. However, at the same time, removing it does a huge amount of problematic issues to higher end ferals because in the current expac it doesn't let us play optimally without it.

The key is finding a balance, which I think the glyph will do. I think the ability as a talent was a poor choice.

[teddabear]

Completely agree to be honest. There is a huge misunderstanding of gameplay between those who understand why top Pve ferals are adamant to keep the ability vs lesser tier raiders who's gameplay it doesn't really impact. If DoC wasn't so far ahead of the other two talents, I could understand not wanting to deal with the debuff myself. However, at the same time, removing it does a huge amount of problematic issues to higher end ferals because in the current expac it doesn't let us play optimally without it.

The key is finding a balance, which I think the glyph will do. I think the ability as a talent was a poor choice.

SR is much better as a glyph than a talent. The original Bloody Talons was too situational to be a talent but they needed to replace it with something when they dropped in DoC instead . Feral needs some situational glyphs for the AoE situations it is rstill eally bad at, like 3-4 targets. Imo a Glyph to make Swipe hit 4 targets and a Glyph to make Rake hit 3 targets would be good situational glyphs.

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An additional 178.5% weapon damage every 42 seconds (4.25%/sec) may be a "wet noodle," but it isn't zero.
.

Did FB just get a big nerf.

5 points: [ 1 + 178.5% of AP ] damage 119% of AP ] damage

Is there some additional scaling other than AP now?

[Skadovsk]

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