savage roar no longer passive?

[Unholyground]

I don't think this is true but it would be interesting to know what percentage would like to see it removed and what percentage want it to stay. I feel the opposite, that the ones that want it removed are a small minority.

Well I am perfectly ok with the glyph a 5% loss to total physical damage is not as big as it would seem if you are wasting 5 combo points every 40 seconds or less on savage roar, you will almost make up for it with FB contrary to what some are saying.

[Emophia]

Well I am perfectly ok with the glyph a 5% loss to total physical damage is not as big as it would seem if you are wasting 5 combo points every 40 seconds or less on savage roar, you will almost make up for it with FB contrary to what some are saying.

Is it 5% of 140% or 5% of 100%

[Kaeth]

Is it 5% of 140% or 5% of 100%

The former. Disregarding its effects on rotational complexity, it's only a 3.6% damage drop versus unglyphed. That penalty effectively increases if you can game the new Blood Talons talent with Savage Roar, and decreases (slightly) if you can't/don't do so.

[teddabear]

The former. Disregarding its effects on rotational complexity, it's only a 3.6% damage drop versus unglyphed. That penalty effectively increases if you can game the new Blood Talons talent with Savage Roar, and decreases (slightly) if you can't/don't do so.

It should be less than than that, you have to subtract out the value of the saved combo points.

[Whitepaw]

I'm pretty sure you hit Slice'n'Dice and think "omg, that was so fun to push, I wanna repeat it again!". Same happens with Savage Roar.

I don't find Savage Roar hard to maintain, it isn't, nor find feral complex. Harder than other dps specs? of course, but not complex, maybe too many years playing mine (since mid vanilla being my main). Yes, Savage Roar adds gameplay and depth, specially involving Predatory Swiftness procs and Dream of Cenarius juggling, but, will anybody here seriously say that Savage Roar is a fun ability? I highly doubt it.

I like the depth of the spec, that's why I'm not for a total removal of the ability but I'd rather it changed to something else, because, seriously, it's the most boring ability in the game, even Teleport:Moonglade has more depth and is funnier than SR. Gee, even staring a at snail race is funnier that hitting SR. I've made some suggestions in this very thread that, without changing its mechanic (finisher that doesn't require target) adds more flavor and fun than current SR.

Well said! I agree completely.

The reasoning behind adding SR at lvl 75 in WotLK was probably to add an element to the dps rotation. All dps specs got extra elements added going from TBC to WotLK. Fair enough. And back then, you could argue that the Feral dps rotation was actually quite complex. Between maintaining SR, Mangle debuff and a 3 stack FFF, while juggling Rip/Rake and always hitting the target from behind with Shred (Mangle was a clear dps loss back then) was quite demanding. Having Ferocious Bite actually do damage was interesting as well, as you had to choose between several finishers, all viable.

You can see the Feral dps priority as a flow-chart here: http://www.downfallguild.org/node/8602

SR is boring - but the underwhelming FB makes it even more boring and easy. Back in WotLK, you could argue that firing FB would be a dps increase in certain situations. In fact, it could often be a dps increase. Now, it's most often NOT a dps increase - and that makes it easier to dps as a Feral. So, instead of those Ferals claiming they want to keep the "complexity" (I'm sorry, that claim is just funny! It's a game, guys - it's not hard at all) by keeping SR as it is now and not buffing FB - well, if they truly want to have a "complex" dps rotation, the argument should go the other way. It'll be harder to squeeze the last few percentile of dps out, if the finishers are closer to parity.

My decision process as a Feral is rather easy:
- I keep up SR. It's my highest priority by far, so that's a given. It only drops if I'm not near a target. The SR glyph makes this easier, but it's really a QoL thing - it's quite doable without it.
- I keep up Rip/Rake/Thrash, in that order. I refresh when Droodfocus tells me that I gain a dps advantage (no, unlike the "higher" Ferals, I don't use Ovale with the nice Feral script).
- I try to keep behind the target to use Shred when appropriate and avoid parries. I don't run DoC, so I don't Mangle-spam.
- I use TF/Berserk when appropriate.
- I keep FF up every 30 seconds.
- When below 25% - and IF Rip was applied with trinket procs and TF up - I use FB. If those conditions were NOT present when Rip was applied, I wait at 5 combo points to get a better Rip up.

The above is really easy - and it's made easier by mods to monitor SR/DoTs/debuffs/energy level etc. But the current lack of damage from FB (it hits about 33% harder than a Shred right now, making it historically weak when compared across all expansion packs) just makes SR and Rip so much more no-brainers to use. And the fact that CC has been completely de-railed as viable/needed in PvE kicks Maim out the door as well.

Let's pretend that the present impotent condition of FB continues into WoD and we apply all the known changes that will probably go Live soon in patch 6.0, the rotation will look like this (single-target):
- I keep up SR. It's my highest priority by far, so that's a given. It should never EVER drop, as it now buffs already applied DoTs.
- I keep up Rip/Rake, in that order. I overwrite Rip when appropriate to extend it.
- I build combo points with Shred.
- I use TF/Berserk when appropriate; Rip is applied when TF is up.
- I use FB as often as possible, since snapshotting is gone.
- If I run with BT, I weave in a HT when appropriate. The new length of PS (12 sec) makes this somewhat easier than in MoP.
- If I run LI, I just apply that when it's running out.

Snapshotting is gone, so I don't sit on my combo points. Notice how Shred can be used from all sides now, negating the positional requirement. Also, Thrash is out the window, it probably won't be a dps gain on single-target. Finally, FF armor debuff mechanic is removed as well. So, in a single-target rotation, 4 factors are removed (snapshotting, Thrash, situational requirement and FF), and only 1 is added (by BT or LI).

The change to combo points will change all this with 2 targets up, as we'll be able to cleave with multiple Rips/Rakes - but we do require additional targets to make it more fun, from a dps rotation perspective.

If anything, an unchanged SR will just keep the dps rotation of the spec quite dull. The extra spice is added from the lvl 100 talents, which actually change the rotation somewhat (choosing CoS could change the entire gameplay towards more hybrid-healing, but that's another story).

[Kaeth]

It should be less than than that, you have to subtract out the value of the saved combo points.

Had that discussion once already in this thread. This part of my post indirectly deals with it:

That penalty effectively increases if you can game the new Blood Talons talent with Savage Roar, and decreases (slightly) if you can't/don't do so.

If you're using SR during execute to get procs for Blood Talons, it's more than a 3.6% dps loss because ... you can't use SR to get procs. If you're not, it's less than a 3.6% loss because you free up at least 5 combo points every 42 seconds, and you never have to worry about the remote possibility of Rip and SR falling off at the same time.

[Will]

Had that discussion once already in this thread. This part of my post indirectly deals with it:

If you're using SR during execute to get procs for Blood Talons, it's more than a 3.6% dps loss because ... you can't use SR to get procs. If you're not, it's less than a 3.6% loss because you free up at least 5 combo points every 42 seconds, and you never have to worry about the remote possibility of Rip and SR falling off at the same time.

Yeah, that's because you'd use FB to get the procs instead.

PvE wise, it's hard to say as it all hinges on how powerful FB will be at launch.
With that said, I can still think of fights where I'd swap into this glyph without hesitation; the sort of fight that involves an awful lot of movement and it becomes a lot harder to keep all the timers up correctly, for instance. If only every fight were patchwerk-style it wouldn't be a problem but I've had plenty of fights that do things like require you to run out of melee range long enough to **** up your timers, costing you more DPS than you would have otherwise lost by using this glyph and accepting the 3.6% damage loss. For more static fights, swap back to a different glyph if you so desire.

(Note that above examples of 'movement phases' pose a situation where Lunar Inspiration could REALLY shine but to the best of my knowledge it hasn't been tuned yet? The ability to keep building CPs and prepare bloodtalons in advance when circumstance forces you out of melee range could - in some fights - be worth a LOT more DPS than the other two choices, but I beg to differ, I seem to have strayed into talents instead of glyphs)

I can't remember the exact value as I worked it out yesterday, but if you were to work out your average DPS and average ferocious bite damage, you'd need your average FB to hit for roughly 1.48x of your average DPS. So if you sit on the dummy for 10 minutes and your average DPS is 100k, and your average FB across that 10-minute duration is 148,100, then you've reached the 'break-even' point where this glyph no longer provides a damage penalty - and this isn't even accounting for human error in certain fights that may cause a delayed re-application of SR. Should blizzard decide to buff FB beyond this breakpoint, the glyph becomes yet more powerful. As gear progresses and bleeds encompass more of the player's overall DPS, the glyph starts to diminish in power very quickly. We could see a situation where it's very strong early-expansion (it probably will be, as timers are a lot harder to maintain with early-tier levels of haste and crit) and extremely weak late-expansion.

(Note that the above basic maths assumes the FB is performed every 40 seconds in place of SR - again this is assuming that were the player to NOT be using the glyph, that they'd almost always be saving the re-application of SR to the last two seconds of its duration; and does not account for the use of SR to proc PS - a task which any CP finisher is equally qualified to do.) It doesn't need to be perfect, I'm not a theorycrafter by any means - I just want to get a rough idea of where things are at.

I'm not on beta anymore and I know feral is broken atm. But at expansion's launch it won't be hard to run some static tests to determine the viability of the passive SR talent, assuming it makes it to launch. Target dummies are the perfect test target as they will allow as best as possible a 'rotation' whereas in an actual fight when players start losing timers due to fight mechanics, the glyph really starts to shine.

[dimmuwow]

Is the glyph mandatory now?

[Unholyground]

Is the glyph mandatory now?

No, that is the whole point, if you are good enough at the spec and can manage keeping SR up and fulfilling the complex rotation you will exceed druids with the glyph in damage at the same skill and gear level.

[chok]

offtopic but, how'd you guys know tf snapshots? i understand bt but im confused about tf

[gestapo]

Anyone know if the glyph modifiers to SR are the same?

- glyph to make it passive
- glyph to get a 5cp equivalent SR for free on leaving stealth (is this still bugged?)
- glyph to get a 12sec SR when used at 0 cp - please tell me this wasn't removed?

[Illumy]

The 12sec. SR at 0 CP Glyph was replaced by the 5CP SR out of Stealth Glyph.

[Cantor]

offtopic but, how'd you guys know tf snapshots? i understand bt but im confused about tf

Go to a training dummy;
apply Rake;
see what it's ticking for;
pop TF;
re-apply Rake;
Rake is now hitting harder.

[gestapo]

The 12sec. SR at 0 CP Glyph was replaced by the 5CP SR out of Stealth Glyph.

I see. I guess it's not a big deal as an opener, and this just makes incarnation that much more valuable, doesn't it?
I also wonder how would it affect in-combat non-stealth SR usage in PvP? Currently 12s of SR is just barely enough time to do a good hard swap.
Given CP's on the druid maybe it won't be so bad - and instead we'll be at an 18s SR on 1cp.

[Mooninites]

the majority liking an additional button to press that does nothing that couldn't be granted with a passive? You kid yourself bro :P
Don't pull things like that out of the air, you can't speak for the majority of the players just by knowing what you and the few people you know think about a spell.

Majority of feral players do enjoy Savage Roar in their rotation. You can go to the forums at fluiddruid to figure out yourself

[chok]

Go to a training dummy;
apply Rake;
see what it's ticking for;
pop TF;
re-apply Rake;
Rake is now hitting harder.

uhm, yes i know that part.

snapshotting is when you apply Rake with TF, then TF falls off, currently applied Rake doesn't get weaker. which is what I am asking. If the currently applied Rake gets weaker when TF falls off, then it is not snapshotting.

i can't test since i'm not on beta, but i'm curious.

[Ulfhedinn]

Because many Ferals that actually play the spec at a high level enjoy Savage Roar and would not be happy to see it go.

The ferals who don't like SR are in the minority, they are just more vocal about that feeling than those who like it, and blizzard knows that.

The situation is resolved, don't like the spell? Glyph it. The talent never made much sense, a talent that makes the spec easier should not be a dps increase.

Many brewmasters that play at the top level use the heck out of clash. It is getting cut.

[Deleted]

Majority of feral players do enjoy Savage Roar in their rotation. You can go to the forums at fluiddruid to figure out yourself

I hardly think the posters on fluiddruid are representative of the 'majority' of feral players... At high end, maybe. The typical player? No.

[gestapo]

Many brewmasters that play at the top level use the heck out of clash. It is getting cut.

I don't think the two are comparable, really.

[Mooninites]

I hardly think the posters on fluiddruid are representative of the 'majority' of feral players... At high end, maybe. The typical player? No.

Fluiddruid is probably the largest community of feral druids you're going to find.