Poll: Required mental reprogramming ethical?

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  1. #161
    Deleted
    Probably better off researching and addressing the causes of murder while persuing prevention as opposed to thinking up wacky new punishments that have more implications beyond the justice system.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by HomeHoney View Post

    and those that "get out of hand" we use the tool on...you know, those that rape, murder, the violent criminals...
    nope. no need to go to that extreme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dethh View Post
    Sounds like a Clockwork Orange.
    or more obviously 1984 or brave new world.

  3. #163
    I could accept this as a replacement for the death penalty or used in extreme cases like mass murderer.

    Though I'm really skeptical.
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  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Spraxle View Post
    The problem with 'great ideas' like this is their use outside of the initial intended use. Once you've set up your lobotomy camps for inmates then who's next? People don't like to admit it, but they would start using this on other groups. Don't like the 'thug' culture? Well you can now round them up and make them all nice and tame! A group of people believes differently then you politically? Get the vans ready for a road trip because you just doubled your follower base!

    And that's more a failure of society then anything. Instead of actual rehabilitation for inmates we stack the deck against them so they can never get past being an inmate. Even the places that do work training do a piss poor job teaching skills that won't find them real work.
    1)we have a constitutional law against such abuses. Any government official in the US and most other develop countries, will find themselves ousted, and likely in legal trouble themselves. If the government decides to act on people who are innocent, they will know what's up, there will be enough resistance to prevent preemptive punishment like reprogramming innocent people, just as locking people up for the stupid shit that is not even dangerous is often fuel for revolutions. I very much doubt any developed republic or democracy will be foolish enough to use this in mass on innocent people. There is the potential for abuses however, just as brutal dictators will wrongfully imprison or execute because they disagree. They could reprogram those captured to nolonger be against the dictatorship.

    The ability to adjust our minds artificially already exists, but we have much more subtle ways. They come in the form of medicine, which some have side effects. This technology: the use of nanoprobes will come first most likely for people who want to buy it, to get rid of toxic emotions, or desires that they personally do not want and which they consider toxic. If people are regularly using these probes to improve themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctd123 View Post
    Probably better off researching and addressing the causes of murder while persuing prevention as opposed to thinking up wacky new punishments that have more implications beyond the justice system.
    All forms of punishment have implications beyond what is justice.
    Last edited by AmericanJustice; 2014-08-02 at 05:13 PM.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanJustice View Post
    Someone like Aders Beverik would decline this kind of rehabilitation, because he thinks he is a hero and is actually brazen about it. This is why he will spend life imprison regardless on whether or not nanoprobe rehabilitation becomes a reality or not for norway murderers. I doubt the officials will force him to take it, their standards appear to be the criminal must volunteer for rehabilitation.
    He might refuse it, but I bet he also rather be a free man than stay imprisoned. If we can force people to stay in prison, forcing people into rehabilitation doesn't sound that unethical - I'm talking about the hypothetical the OP provided, the kind of rehabilitation we have today kind of requires the consent of the patient to have any effect.
    Last edited by Dezerte; 2014-08-02 at 05:55 PM.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  6. #166
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    Not just No but hell NO
    I wouldn't even want that type of science to even be explored because who says they will just do it to criminals who says the people in power wouldn't want to do that to the population to get them to think and feel how they want them to think and feel. Just think if someone like communist Russia, China, or N. Korea had that technology. instead of sending millions to reeducation camps they do brain surgery to force them to be good little communist sheep
    there is to much temptation for abuse there should be no science that explores the possibilities to control some one else's free will. even if that free will causes bad acts
    Rose-tint goggled westerner thinking that only the "evil" eastern communists would jump at this technology. There's plenty of powerful entities in the west, including the US government, that would jump at abilities like this. Then again it could already be reality, how would you know if you've been reprogrammed?

  7. #167
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Adudu View Post
    Rose-tint goggled westerner thinking that only the "evil" eastern communists would jump at this technology. There's plenty of powerful entities in the west, including the US government, that would jump at abilities like this. Then again it could already be reality, how would you know if you've been reprogrammed?
    GET OUT OF MY HEAD CHARLES.

    http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...ons-news-feeds

    But yea all in all, terrible idea.

  8. #168
    Deleted
    This is what is happening to everyone, in a less regimented way.

    Every single response in this thread is a result of the continual programming and reprogramming occurring in our brains as a result of genetics, epigenetics, culture / society / environment and experience, which coalesce to gives the illusion of free will. Every single thought we have, we do not decide to think before we think them. We just witness them as they present themselves in our consciousness. They are chemical reactions not of our choosing. Our minds are neuronal weather patterns. Every serial killer and saint alike are subject to this. If we truly had free will, we could will ourselves to hold the opposing view without issue, but we can't because we are lucky / unlucky enough to have been exposed and conditioned to think the way we do. When we realise this, it's actually very liberating because we can start to see how different influences affect us and then start to exercise some choice (based on being exposed to the information that allows us to do so), and be more discerning with our personal educational journey through life.

    If the process in the OP became a thing, I'd say make the murderer aware of it and allow them to make an informed decision, to avoid falling into the trap of double thinkers calling it fascism. If it was a non-invasive procedure, like intensive, super effective counselling sessions in a nurturing environment that could effectively over time change entrenched neural pathways, I don't see a reason why we couldn't start to use the process to create a healthier society that could potentially limit the psychological harm that turns decent children into adult murderers.

    If anyone feels the impulse to investigate further on this subject, Neuroscientist, Sam Harris has some material on YouTube on the subject of free will that is fascinating (not fascism lol).
    Last edited by mmoc59bc4f3926; 2014-08-02 at 08:30 PM.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaell View Post
    This is what is happening to everyone, in a less regimented way.

    Every single response in this thread is a result of the continual programming and reprogramming occurring in our brains as a result of genetics, epigenetics, culture / society / environment and experience, which coalesce to gives the illusion of free will. Every single thought we have, we do not decide to think before we think them. We just witness them as they present themselves in our consciousness. They are chemical reactions not of our choosing. Our minds are neuronal weather patterns. Every serial killer and saint alike are subject to this. If we truly had free will, we could will ourselves to hold the opposing view without issue, but we can't because we are lucky / unlucky enough to have been exposed and conditioned to think the way we do. When we realise this, it's actually very liberating because we can start to see how different influences affect us and then start to exercise some choice (based on being exposed to the information that allows us to do so), and be more discerning with our personal educational journey through life.

    If the process in the OP became a thing, I'd say make the murderer aware of it and allow them to make an informed decision, to avoid falling into the trap of double thinkers calling it fascism. If it was a non-invasive procedure, like intensive, super effective counselling sessions in a nurturing environment that could effectively over time change entrenched neural pathways, I don't see a reason why we couldn't start to use the process to create a healthier society that could potentially limit the psychological harm that turns decent children into adult murderers.

    If anyone feels the impulse to investigate further on this subject, Neuroscientist, Sam Harris has some material on YouTube on the subject of free will that is fascinating (not fascism lol).
    interesting point, in a sense we are all being mentally reprogrammed, but its done by our environment such as social media and our friends, and the television.

  10. #170
    Genetic therapy will save the world. Genes that make criminals what they are will be identified, and treated. And those who would be too poor to receive the treatment will have a stigma on them, and have very little opportunity to get a job and reproduce.
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  11. #171
    It has to be voluntary, forcing criminals to take medicine who are able to consent would be using excessive force. I will make an exception for individuals who are too insane to consent and will attack everything within their sight, but 99+% of them are able to consent, so give them all the details, everything about the "nanoprobes" (i preff call them nanomedicine since we do not know what medium it comes in). If they agree to take this type of rehabilitation, they should have their sentence removed.

    This might sound like I am giving them a free pass for their crimes, but I do not see prison as a form of punishment, only deterrent and rehabilitation. If you can turn an blood thirsty rapist + kidnapper + serial killer safely, and with his/her consent, his sentence which would be life without parole could be removed.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Manakin View Post
    A future in which a person is not the sovereign of their mind is one i don't want to live in.
    Pretty much this. I don't care how evil people are, being able to re-program peoples brains won't just be used on criminals, and that is an abhorent amount of power. Think of who's in charge.

  13. #173
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    If we had proper rehabilitation centers rather than centers which turn soft thugs in to hardened criminals our prisons wouldn't be overflowing.
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  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustweaver View Post
    If we had proper rehabilitation centers rather than centers which turn soft thugs in to hardened criminals our prisons wouldn't be overflowing.
    There's no money in rehabilitation though.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    Pretty much this. I don't care how evil people are, being able to re-program peoples brains won't just be used on criminals, and that is an abhorent amount of power. Think of who's in charge.
    I don't think this will start out as a Top-down system, rather, it will start out as individuals who want to change a few of their desire that they don't like. (I personally have a few fetishes I wish I do not have myself). There will be individuals who want to be much happier and less angry, but are simply too lazy to take the steps to accomplish that. If or when nano type stuff that are deemed safe for consumption, I would imagine people would be paying quite a bit of money to artificially make themselves happier, less subseptable to hatred, vengeance. It might work like me walking into a clinic with 1500 dollars asking if they can reduce my explosive temper. And they will figure out what they can do for me.

    If it proves successful, I think we could give an offer to criminals, they can go through with the therapy to reduce their level of hatred, level of impulsive burst of anger in exchange for an end to their sentences.

    If the government decides they are going to say, brainwash regular people to vote for them, people will likely figure out whats going out very fast because they are a custom to artificial means of changing their minds. If we see people who are vocally against the government become strongly in favor of that government, it should be pretty easy to figure out. pre-emptive punishment is also blatently unconstitutional so no way they would have legal grounds for brainwashing innocent people.

    These are legitament concerns, we ought to be thinking how and what limits government should have on people and prisoners. A good regulation which is also the strongest is to ban forcing it onto them. New constitutional regulations which will ban forcing criminals to use medicine if they are able to consent. This includes a federal level ban on forced castrations like in CA TX FL, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamanic View Post
    Considering we already kill people and lock them up for life, and obviously consent is not part of that - making it safer for society is, I would have thought that this is a far better alternative, both for the criminal and for society. The way I see it is you're taking away their freedom regardless, and it's not a nice choice, but it's a necessary choice to keep society safe.

    Take away their mental freedom or their physical freedom, considering taking away their mental freedom merely allows them to live out the lives that the majority of people in the world do and since they are changed, they won't even miss what was taken away, and taking away physical freedom locks them in a box, which usually degrades them mentally anyway whilst they basically just sit and rot whilst missing out on life, at the countries expense... changing their brain patterns would seem like the lesser of two necessary evils to me by far.
    I would say that rehabilitating them the neurons associated with their destructive mentality actually allows for MORE mental freedom compared with 20 years or life imprisonment. When someone is imprisoned, internet access is heavily regulated if existent at all, entertainment is not limitless like we free people enjoy. A person committing murder, than getting invasively rehabilitated with the nanoprobes OP was describing, than released within a year or two will have much more overall happiness and freedom compared with he inside prison for 20 years or life.

    But thats assuming this is done with safely.
    Last edited by Sole-Warrior; 2014-08-02 at 11:29 PM.

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