The Rise of Putinism. Greymane Global Trends (GGT)

[breadisfunny]

Even the absolute lowest rungs of that 15% are in the top 55th percentile worldwide.

Also the US's wealth is barely over half of the *actual* richest nation in the world.

i'm sure that's so comforting to those people who have to scrounge among garbage scraps for food and don't have a roof over their head.

[Crispin]

Putin is some 80 years late, his current course will only lead to failure, and end up isolating Russia while doing it.

Let's be honest, the Russia - China relationship is everything but simple and jolly, China sure wants a slice of that Siberia.

Some EU countries depend on Russian gas, mainly germany and east countries, there are alternatives, while they might cost more than currently, having seen gas prices within the last 10 years fluctate as much s 40% within a single year did nothing to the economy, people just used less, it's no surprise that alot of the energy that the west use is nothing but a luxury, the actual need wont get hurt.


In the end, it's Rusia with a population of some 140 mill people, where far from all supports Putins world view, who is trying to make an impact on Europe with a pop of about 500 mill people alone, add in North America and so on.

Putin stands alone, and he is running Russia like we live in the 50's, the guy overestimates himself.

[sethman75]

I think a lot of what he stands for is exactly what the world needs.

I love how the article compares it to western ideals to make Putin seem the bad guy but for people that see through the bullshit, it has the opposite effect.

Individual rights, tolerance, cosmopolitan ideals are exactly what has made the west morally and idealogically weak and corrupt.

I dont condone violence but i admire some of things Putin stands for.

[MerinPally]

Individual rights, tolerance, cosmopolitan ideals are exactly what has made the west morally and idealogically weak and corrupt.

Wat

Yeah the world was definitely better off when we discriminated against each other and people have no rights whatsoever and were completely at the mercy of their leader...

[Deleted]

I can see American propaganda has started full power.
The rise of putinism? Ah, what a load of cock. 25 years ago these guys.had to rewrite the whole system they were living in. Expecting the same social evolution of a continent that's been at peace for 70 years is just ridiculous.
Plus we have created a danger to society that is way way beyond putinism. Corporativism, the hard end of capitalism, where the system created to protect and help people and society to evolve fails in his duty in order to protect the benefits of corporations.

but I guess people need an enemy and putin fits in the character let's say. I don't understand Europeans following this though. We deal with Saudi Arabia, Israel and the usa which have done way way more damage than putin, and all of a sudden we have to harm our economy because it helps someone else's?
If we want to act moral and shit oh yeah count me in but 1) we need to be constant and 2) we need an unified army before doing that

[Shalcker]

Yeah the world was definitely better off when we discriminated against each other and people have no rights whatsoever and were completely at the mercy of their leader...

There is difference between reducing discrimination and "political correctness" where you're not allowed to make judgements on individual people because they can be twisted into judgements on their race/sexual orientation/whatever.

Poison or cure often depends on dosage, not on formula.

[Ravenblade]

I think a lot of what he stands for is exactly what the world needs.

I love how the article compares it to western ideals to make Putin seem the bad guy but for people that see through the bullshit, it has the opposite effect.

Individual rights, tolerance, cosmopolitan ideals are exactly what has made the west morally and idealogically weak and corrupt.

I dont condone violence but i admire some of things Putin stands for.

These things are based on ideals of humanism and general ideals dating back to the age of enlightenment where ideas of liberalism and secular thinking were developed by philosophers like Kant and sometimes scientists also being philosophers altogether like Voltaire. It's not the ideals who are corrupt but people while benefiting from them are often violating these willfully for other motives like money, power or simple selfishness. People who altogether don't care about these are usually entrenched in traditionalism and nationalism whose ideals are far older and lack the complex structures needed to evolve beyond them. Of course people are going to admire the strongest leader it's what humans did for most of the millennia, yet ironically it's those with "weak" ideals which will often enough provide a platform to keep their aged ideals alive because if the situation were reversed they would not grant the same to the "weak". But does strong equal better? Only if you like simplistic and rigid thought structures typical for traditionalist and nationalist/ethnicist ideals which also favour display of strength of which violence is seen as innately justified measure.

[Deleted]

But does strong equal better?

Benevolence is a luxury for the strong.

[Ravenblade]

Benevolence is a luxury for the strong.

So, have we come to worship fictional WoW dragon dudes as inspirational source for real world social policies?

Obviously I was not referring to "strong" as some actual condition because many strengths these days are actually disguised weaknesses. Real strength can have many sources, whereas "strength" is usually based on mere gestures rather than defensible positions. Any action resulting from a defensible position is inherently strong.

[Graeham]

Wat

Yeah the world was definitely better off when we discriminated against each other and people have no rights whatsoever and were completely at the mercy of their leader...

He has a point, since the push for tolerance has unfortunately led to various aspects of western culture begin negatively impacted on a very unreasonable level such as where excessive political correctness is concerned. Then there's the delicate matter of people claiming to be tolerant and pushing for inclusion whilst all they're really doing is pushing a selfish agenda that excludes a different group within society.

That isn't to suggest that tolerance is bad, though. It's just that in many cases it's pursued in a damaging and/or hypocritical manner.

[Shalcker]

But does strong equal better? Only if you like simplistic and rigid thought structures typical for traditionalist and nationalist/ethnicist ideals which also favour display of strength of which violence is seen as innately justified measure.

What you "like" (or more "consider natural") is generally decided by society you're living in, shaped by experience and media you're seeing.

And with world being pretty open today it's often easier to change societies then to change society if you do not fit in.

[Deleted]

So, have we come to worship fictional WoW dragon dudes as inspirational source for real world social policies?

Obviously I was not referring to "strong" as some actual condition because many strengths these days are actually disguised weaknesses. Real strength can have many sources, whereas "strength" is usually based on mere gestures rather than defensible positions. Any action resulting from a defensible position is inherently strong.

Ok let me quote someone more famous then:

"Justice without force is powerless".

Go and live in Russia and try to change the system without real power. See how long you last. You will disappear and never be heard from again.

That's your "strength".

[Ravenblade]

What you "like" (or more "consider natural") is generally decided by society you're living in, shaped by experience and media you're seeing.

And with world being pretty open today it's often easier to change societies then to change society if you do not fit in.

The less conscious and aware you are about your environment, values and political situation the more you are depending on these factors to shape you, yes. Otherwise, if you are, use different sources for inspiration then it's up to you to decide and you can't blame it on society, your government or media any more really especially once you are put into a position on top to exert influence at which point the values become also values of responsibility, not just towards your government but your values and moreover your consciousness as well.

Ok let me quote someone more famous then:

"Justice without force is powerless".

"...and force without justice is tyrannical." (just felt to add the omitted part).

Go and live in Russia and try to change the system without real power. See how long you last. You will disappear and never be heard from again.

That's your "strength".

I was talking about Western social values and the resulting policies which seem to work fine yet are seen as weakness. I have not even given my opinion about Russian or specifically Putin's politics per se. Although your assessment sounds sort of damning for the society are talking about.

[Arlon]

Ehh, Putin's political measures won't spread far. The only reason he is so successful in Russia is because the people there are culturally homogeneous towards authoritative governments. Couple that with a bigger complex of "we are a former empire, don't mess with us" than what the Brits have and you get a good idea on how the countries foreign and internal politics evolve.

The media control is tight as fuck as well. Having talked to a friend of mine who's a Russian and lives there, the media reports are a complete opposite of what you see in the west. It's really bizarre... While there is propaganda on both ends of the spectrum, in hindsight, the western media has been quite truthful about the actual realities in it's reports.

[GennGreymane]

I like how this thread is developing.

[Wildtree]

I don't care about the US.

What Russia is doing is destabilizing Europe. It has also put light on that Putin is willing to spend pension money on supporting an illegal annexation, spending money on military when there's many other problems in the country that needs to be fixed like its infrastructure, and how he is letting his country slide into recession due to pure and simple nationalism.

And let's not begin with Putin's control of state media.

What you've just said, can be easily applied to the US just as much...
Let me break it down....

willing to spend pension money on supporting an illegal annexation

Bingo... War on Iraq was/is costly. Congress was considering to touch this pot in order to save money...

spending money on military when there's many other problems in the country that needs to be fixed like its infrastructure

This is 100% the case in the US as well. Horrendous infrastructure, in parts outdated to an extend of 50 years. On top high poverty, inequality, lack of healthcare, and complete absence of other social web functions that are considered essential in western countries..

he is letting his country slide into recession due to pure and simple nationalism.

Similar happens in the US as well.
While different mechanisms are at work, the outcome is the exact same.. Replace Putin with Corporate business, and you have your "dictator" responsible in the US.
Corporate business owns the US government to an extent, that the country fell into a recession that thrown the entire planet into an economy crisis. The one able to prevent it, didn't do anything... the US government. Of course it didn't, since it's owned by Corporate US....

And let's not begin with Putin's control of state media.

Putin/Corp US applies here too..
The media landscape in the US changed dramatically over the last 30 - 40 years. While 40 yrs ago some around 50ish companies worked in this field, and with that a wide spectrum of news and media diversity was basically ensured. Today there are only some 5 big corporations left that own everything that has the label media attached to it.
Corporate US dictates and controls what the population gets to see, gets to hear, gets to read....

So, where's the significant difference here?

[Slaskra]

i'm sure that's so comforting to those people who have to scrounge among garbage scraps for food and don't have a roof over their head.

Its not supposed to be, but to call *any* system a failure solely because some people live in poverty seems pretty ignorant, especially when those same people still have a higher quality of life well over half of the rest of the world. Calling a developed country a failure based on that is some serious first-world-centric reasoning.

- - - Updated - - -

What Russia is doing is destabilizing Europe. It has also put light on that Putin is willing to spend pension money on supporting an illegal annexation, spending money on military when there's many other problems in the country that needs to be fixed like its infrastructure, and how he is letting his country slide into recession due to pure and simple nationalism.

And let's not begin with Putin's control of state media.

Switch around just a few proper nouns and verbs and you'd be describing the US.

[Hellrime]

Limited liberty, strong leaders who don't leave office in a timely manner, state control of the media, heavy religious integration into the state, crackdowns on non-violent political protestors and minorities.

All allowed under the current President in power, but clearly a Republican only thing sure! I suggest you take a tally of the pro-Republican news stations and the pro-Democrat stations then come on back and tell us who controls the media. Not to mention grouping all Republicans into one group for the purposes of quick and easy bashing really kind of lessens any point you might have. Not all Republicans are foaming at the mouth, tongue speak Christianophiles. Many believe in similar aspects as you do, but all the pro-Democratic news stations don't exactly want you to know that, so I understand.

[Deleted]

What you've just said, can be easily applied to the US just as much...
Let me break it down....


Bingo... War on Iraq was/is costly. Congress was considering to touch this pot in order to save money...

This is 100% the case in the US as well. Horrendous infrastructure, in parts outdated to an extend of 50 years. On top high poverty, inequality, lack of healthcare, and complete absence of other social web functions that are considered essential in western countries..

Similar happens in the US as well.
While different mechanisms are at work, the outcome is the exact same.. Replace Putin with Corporate business, and you have your "dictator" responsible in the US.
Corporate business owns the US government to an extent, that the country fell into a recession that thrown the entire planet into an economy crisis. The one able to prevent it, didn't do anything... the US government. Of course it didn't, since it's owned by Corporate US....

Putin/Corp US applies here too..
The media landscape in the US changed dramatically over the last 30 - 40 years. While 40 yrs ago some around 50ish companies worked in this field, and with that a wide spectrum of news and media diversity was basically ensured. Today there are only some 5 big corporations left that own everything that has the label media attached to it.
Corporate US dictates and controls what the population gets to see, gets to hear, gets to read....

So, where's the significant difference here?

That the US isn't destabilizing Europe. That the US actually didn't touch pension money. That the US had the rest of the world's support when it came to Afghanistan. I think the Iraq war was total bullshit as well as Afghanistan but there you go.

That the US actually allows conflicting opinions. You don't see people in the US getting jailed or fired from their jobs because they think the wars were unnecessary. That the media is at least offering different points of view.

And finally, Americans aren't exercising whataboutism. If the US fucks up, many Americans agree that their country fucked up. Russians? The Russians on these forums are impossible to deal with. They barely admits when Russia fucks up. There's a reason why there's 1600+ pages on this forum filled with flaming.

[GennGreymane]

I am enjoying the comparisons between the u.s and putin.