Why the Putin?

[Sunseeker]

There's nothing to be proud of in that. I'd soon have a country where I can voice my objection to its political standing, then forced to comply with its indoctrination. America and uk might have its problems, but at least I can say what's shit about it without being arrested.

Thank you for demonstrating how difficult it is for people in the West to see things from the Russian perspective. Simply put: many Russians would rather have a powerful nation playing a big part in the world than have freedom of speech.

[Eurydemus]

There's nothing to be proud of in that. I'd soon have a country where I can voice my objection to its political standing, then forced to comply with its indoctrination. America and uk might have its problems, but at least I can say what's shit about it without being arrested.

I don't know about that. You'd be surprised at how intoxicating nationalism can be for people who live in a hitherto powerful country that has been laid low. Weimar Germany was as free as you can be (for that time period anyway), but that didn't stop most Germans from tacitly going along with You-Know-Who after things started looking up for them domestically and internationally.

[Kalis]

You do understand that we have substantial trade surplus? West simply doesn't have enough things to sell us for all we deliver to them, and we mostly buy technologies and machinery to update our local factories.

And some things we would like to buy West simply refuses to sell... See for example failed Opel deal.

So you don't need the technologies then? Russia just buys them for the lolz?

Russia is resource rich, and what you have failed to grasp is that to the West you are Africa with better negotiators. Look how we've treated Africa over the years, it ain't pretty.

If we go with economic journals then i guess we should go with "need for investment money"?

Russia doesn't need "any" investment money. Our requirements are quite specific, we accept investments that create something on our soil. Factories, technology transfer, local jobs and expertise. Something you cannot just pick up and move out easily should situation change - and that can be kept "hostage" or outright nationalized should situation really deteriorate. Been doing it for years.

Again, it's idea of "mutual benefit". We provide incentives and market, West creates something that benefits us while creating profit for them.

That's not evidence, that's just you talking.

[Shalcker]

There's nothing to be proud of in that. I'd soon have a country where I can voice my objection to its political standing, then forced to comply with its indoctrination. America and uk might have its problems, but at least I can say what's shit about it without being arrested.

Well, as we see in Ukraine it's quite possible to have country where you can "voice your objection", force actual change, and then still be "forced to comply" by the ones currently at power...

We prefer to avoid scenarios like that, and that does necessitate some push-back against Western influence and idea of "total freedom".

[nicetom4ya]

[Shalcker]

So you don't need the technologies then? Russia just buys them for the lolz?

It's simply cheaper to buy them now. But if you don't sell them then more costly option of doing it on our own will be still better then nothing - and we CAN do it if you force us to. We proved that many times before.

Russia is resource rich, and what you have failed to grasp is that to the West you are Africa with better negotiators. Look how we've treated Africa over the years, it ain't pretty.

Well, that's how you would like to see us, obviously we're not going to accept this idea. We still have nukes that can protect our pride :P

That's not evidence, that's just you talking.

Show your articles from "economic journals" and then i can see what exactly is it that your want to see refuted.

We enforced slowly increasing "localization percentage" for many things created by international corporations, like car manufacturers. They need our market so they comply to our requirements.

[Sunseeker]

It's simply cheaper to buy them now. But if you don't sell them then more costly option of doing it on our own will be still better then nothing - and we CAN do it if you force us to. We proved that many times before.

Sure, for about 30 years and then you fell into ruin...again.

Well, that's how you would like to see us, obviously we're not going to accept this idea. We still have nukes that can protect our pride :P

You can't afford to fuel your nukes much less maintain most of them. And you're not stupid enough to nuke more powerful nations 'cause you aren't getting the deal you want.

We enforced slowly increasing "localization percentage" for many things created by international corporations, like car manufacturers. They need our market so they comply to our requirements.

You have 1/3rd the population of the United States. 1/10th the population of India or China and your people are not consumers. You even said yourself that you supply much of your own demand internally. You are NOT a market companies "need".

[The Iron Fist]

I don't like Putin either, but you're off on several things here. First, conservative and liberal don't exactly apply to Putin, as that's not really what he's about. The United Russia party is essentially a nationalist party centered around him. They have made it so if you're pro-russia, than that means you're pro-Putin.

And the idea that China has more human rights than Russia is insane. Completely insane. China has no regard for the safety or health of it's citizens. While there has been an economic miracle in China, it's been on the backs of people working in factories that are horrible places, essentially slave labor. They have no freedom of speech (Russia has some, albeit nothing compared to western countries), has far more political prisoners, and is the most paranoid large country out there.

Crimea is not like the UK taking back Canada at all. Not even close. If anything, it would be like if Northern Ireland was a part of Ireland up until 20 years ago, then they gave it to the UK, and then they took it back. I'm not saying that Russia had the right to, but it's not the same situation at all. Crimea is Russian through and through. Doesn't mean Russia has a right to it though of course.

And war is not inevitable. The USSR and NATO relations were 20x worse for pretty much the entire length of the cold war and no big war happened. War isn't going to break out, it's in no one's interest.

To understand Putin and why he even cares about these places he has taken, one must look at the history of Russia. They have always needed a strong leader that shows the world who's boss. They hate anyone else. Ever been to Russia? Most pseudo-masculine place in the world. Every guy thinks his cock is bigger than yours. It's ridiculous. They compensate for their clear lack of a modern country, the fact that they are behind in every way as compared to the west, by being bullies. That's what they have done for years.

OK, my rebuttal...

Liberal band Pussy Riot, liberal CEO Mikhail Khodorkovsky, and homosexuals were and are being jailed in Siberia in work camps for their views. Strong Nationalism tends to be a conservative value, though not always.

On Russian freedoms - Russia has no regard for freedoms, health, or environment either. All you have to do is google "USSR fall hazardous waste" to see what I mean. Also, one word - Chernobyl. People that are being held political prisoner in Siberia are also being used as slave labor. My point was not that China is free, which you seem to take as my meaning. I only contend it is more free than Russia because it is not solely run by a single autocratic man.

Crimea is not Russian through-and-through, that is a blatant mistruth. There is a majority Russian ethnicity left-over from when the USSR spread Russians all over. There are also many Tartars and Ukrainians in that territory as well. I will say your example is probably more fitting historically about Ireland, though, although Canada was once a territory of the British Empire. My point is that it was taking back something you used to own that you no longer do, and for that purpose it is accurate.

On war is not inevitable - Are you savvy with the Budapest Memorandum? The US and UK are bound by treaty to defend Ukraine's sovereignty when they agreed to give up the worlds 3rd largest stockpile of nuclear arms. Russia also signed it, but have clearly violated that accord. How about Russia's foray into Georgia and taking South Ossetia. It wreaks of what Hitler did pre-WW2 with what he called the Sudetenland. People said the same thing before WW1 about that war not happening, and that it was "the war to end all wars." Then WW2 happened. War is rarely in anyone's interest, but is usually stoked by nationalism and a desire for power and prestige - all things Putin is pushing for and not letting down. If you don't think the situation in Ukraine is this generations Cuban Missile Crisis then you're not paying attention to the news.

I presume you've been to Russia? From the outside having never traveled there, I would certainly agree. However, I could never entirely presume to understand something I couldn't experience first hand, having never been there.

[Eurydemus]

Russia's biggest, long-term economic concern is not physical products, by the way. It's restricting access to global capital markets that has the potential to flush the Russian economy down the toilet.

[The Iron Fist]

I don't know about that. You'd be surprised at how intoxicating nationalism can be for people who live in a hitherto powerful country that has been laid low. Weimar Germany was as free as you can be (for that time period anyway), but that didn't stop most Germans from tacitly going along with You-Know-Who after things started looking up for them domestically and internationally.

That is highly, highly inaccurate in regards to "most Germans following Hitler." What effectively happened is the Nazi's got a foothold in Germany and more-or-less invaded the country from within. Most Germans were indeed defiant to Hitler even when he rose to absolute power. The Nazi's killed and hurt more Germans than any other country or nationality. For gods sake man, learn your history.

TL;DR - Germans =/= Nazis or Nazi supporters

[Shalcker]

Sure, for about 30 years and then you fell into ruin...again.

Which part of history are you talking about?
30 years seems to be either too short or too long for most distinct periods...

You can't afford to fuel your nukes much less maintain most of them. And you're not stupid enough to nuke more powerful nations 'cause you aren't getting the deal you want.

We certainly can afford it. This part of our forces wasn't neglected even during 90's when everything else was falling in disarray.

You have 1/3rd the population of the United States. 1/10th the population of India or China and your people are not consumers. You even said yourself that you supply much of your own demand internally. You are NOT a market companies "need".

Our people ARE consumers. 150 millions of educated people who can consume European high-tech products. In many sectors we go either right after or right before Germany by market size. We have huge demand for cars, for example Russia’s car market will be Europe’s biggest by 2020

[Eurydemus]

That is highly, highly inaccurate in regards to "most Germans following Hitler." What effectively happened is the Nazi's got a foothold in Germany and more-or-less invaded the country from within. Most Germans were indeed defiant to Hitler even when he rose to absolute power. The Nazi's killed and hurt more Germans than any other country or nationality. For gods sake man, learn your history.

TL;DR - Germans =/= Nazis or Nazi supporters

No, no. Carefully read what I wrote again.

I never said all or even most Germans were Nazis or NSDAP supporters. I said most Germans were tacitly going along with the Nazis once things were on the up-and-up, which was absolutely true. Yes, there was the Weiss Rose and the Kreisauer Kreis and other forms of German resistance, but there were also large numbers of ordinary people who may not have loved or even liked Hitler and his goons, but who went along with things (at the onset at least) because of economic interests or national pride.


P.S. "The Nazi's [sic] killed and hurt more Germans than any other country or nationality", is, of course, blatantly false.

[Shalcker]

No, no. Carefully read what I wrote again.

I never said all or even most Germans were Nazis or NSDAP supporters. I said most Germans were tacitly going along with the Nazis once things were on the up-and-up, which was absolutely true. Yes, there was the Weiss Rose and the Kreisauer Kreis and other forms of German resistance, but there were also large numbers of ordinary people who may not have loved or even liked Hitler and his goons, but who went along with things (at the onset at least) because of economic interests or national pride.

Which is exactly how we see Ukrainian situation now btw...

[Eurydemus]

Which is exactly how we see Ukrainian situation now btw...

As in, some Russians are going along with Putin not because they particularly like the man or what he stands for, but are happy because he's making Russians proud again?

[Sunseeker]

As in, some Russians are going along with Putin not because they particularly like the man or what he stands for, but are happy because he's making Russians proud again?

Welcome to Russia 101.

[Deleted]

Sure, for about 30 years and then you fell into ruin...again.


You can't afford to fuel your nukes much less maintain most of them. And you're not stupid enough to nuke more powerful nations 'cause you aren't getting the deal you want.


You have 1/3rd the population of the United States. 1/10th the population of India or China and your people are not consumers. You even said yourself that you supply much of your own demand internally. You are NOT a market companies "need".

An interesting American pow. For Europe Russia is a big market. Export and import in the hundreds if billions. We can't replace such a big growing market right on our doorstep.

[Xisa]

It's quite possible that in the end West will be hit much harder. See for example possible closure of Siberian Airspace to European companies that is projected to create about 1 billion loss every 3 months due to higher fuel requirements with accompanying loss of competitive edge to Asian companies that will not be affected...

It'll certainly be learning experience for everyone involved just to see how exactly is world interconnected today. If it plays out right our influence within EU will only grow, and non-EU European countries will be glad to grab Russian markets too.

Russia doesn't actually needs the rest of the world, but we can use existence of the rest of the world when buying things is more convenient then creating them on your own. That was the idea - to become part of global economic system for convenience. We deliver gas and oil, you deliver your technology and expertise, everyone benefits.

But this balance can change if Europe will continue to undermine their reliability as economic partner due to US pressure.

Russia doesn't have enough power to shake the world anymore. At one point, yes, they did.

This isn't the 60s anymore. They have the world's largest natural resource reserves and largest landmass, yet can barely maintain it's Position as #8 in world economies, and has a miniscule population relative to its size that is already in decline due to the high mortality rate of young Russian males (Male Russian life expectancy is dramatically lower than the West's).

Russia's biggest playing cards are Oil and Natural gas, and with the ramped-up exports from the US thanks to shale production and the ever-higher climbing push for renewable energy resources, those cards aren't going to be face cards much longer.

You do have better-than-average propaganda, however.

[Yunru]

One thing people dont understand here.
Those *russan* people were immigrants.
They werent there before. Right now a russan plan is too immigrate people to other countrys..leave them there a few years..make a spark and then take the land.

Lets say if 4 milion russan landed on american land and refused to talk english (and also taking jobs and stuff). And then Putin will come and make a war with America, because XXX reason of XXX reasons the americans are doing bad to russans. And he wants the *rebels* to win.

Putin is smart for using this new strategy.

Wake island has a similar story:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_Island

But in this story all population was killed.

[Eurydemus]

Welcome to Russia 101.

Well, Nationalism 101, really. I can sympathise. I don't like it, but I can sympathise.

[Shalcker]

As in, some Russians are going along with Putin not because they particularly like the man or what he stands for, but are happy because he's making Russians proud again?

I said "Ukrainian situation" - more complete analogy that way. People going along with protests out of misplaced national pride rather then due to true support of radicals that overthrown legitimate government.

But it works for Putin too. Look at it as Maslow pyramid on country level. We got sufficient economic security for ourselves and now it's time to extend our influence elsewhere. Change world for the better (where "better" should be read as "better for Russia"). Grow our Customs Union, increase our influence in near abroad, things like that. Taking Crimea was best way out of terrible situation created by US meddling in Ukraine.

Whoever comes after Putin will be a lot less compromising with West, that much is clear. Putin really and truly tried to cooperate with West for his first two terms in 2000s. He even offered alternatives to Ukrainians.

But if you do not take our offers of cooperation then we can talk using force too. Good word and a gun works much better then just a good word after all.