High-end gaming PC for Christmas - cooling question

[May90]

Hello guys.

I am going to buy a new gaming PC for Christmas or, perhaps, earlier. Budget is $2000-$3000. I need only the box with the hardware, I already have monitor, mouse, keyboard, etc.

The config I have in mind is 780 Ti + 4790k, or 2x780 in SLI + 4790k. On AvaDirect site, the former goes for about $2000 and the latter is for about $3000 (with all other components included). Now, the difference in price is much higher than the difference in price between the GPUs themselves - it is due to different cooling systems used in both cases. Apparently, since SLI doesn't work well in most games I am interested in, I would prefer the 780 Ti option for just $2000 and possibly even better performance in some games.
I do not plan to overclock anything. Call me crazy, but I have always taken overclocking with suspicion after all those overheating issues I'd had with all those low-end systems I'd owned.

So, let me just ask a couple of questions.

1) Should I aim at a full-tower case, or is mid-tower just as fine? I am rookie when it comes to cases, but, it seems to me, full-tower should always be better because of a better air circulation, right?
2) The 2x780 system comes with an expensive liquid cooling. Are such drastic measures necessary in case I just want a single 780 Ti without any overclocking of either CPU or GPU whatsoever? Will be a good full/mid-tower + a good CPU cooler enough to prevent any overheating even during long gaming sessions?
3) In general, am I right that, pretty much, any cooling system is fine in case I don't overclock anything, even with 2 GPUs? Or should I spend a lot of money on a good cooling system anyway due to the high-end equipment?

The problem is, I've always had very low-end systems, and only my latest laptop can be considered in mid-range - but it is still laptop, so you understand that it doesn't stand well against even mediocre desktops. I have not much knowledge of how things work in the high-end sector. So, can you help me guys make my Christmas truly awesome?

Thanks in advance!

[Eroginous]

1. What are you going to be doing on this computer? If gaming, which games? Any video editing, rendering, streaming, or other multi core uses?

2. If you had problems in the past with heating, were you trying to overclock? Because you've chosen hardware designed to be overclocked and it would be a waste not to overclock it.

3. Your budget is incredibly high for a box and no peripherals, even if your goal is to game on ultra settings. Are you trying to drive multiple monitors or game on 1440p/2160p(4k) resolutions?

[May90]

1. What are you going to be doing on this computer? If gaming, which games? Any video editing, rendering, streaming, or other multi core uses?

2. If you had problems in the past with heating, were you trying to overclock? Because you've chosen hardware designed to be overclocked and it would be a waste not to overclock it.

3. Your budget is incredibly high for a box and no peripherals, even if your goal is to game on ultra settings. Are you trying to drive multiple monitors or game on 1440p/2160p(4k) resolutions?

1. Gaming - mostly online RTS and online/single-player RPGs. Possibly will stream in the future, but not sure about it. Also will do some calculations in astrophysics, but I guess most modern CPUs can handle it.

2. No, I've never tried to overclock anything: overheating was probably due to a very tight budget, so I could not spend a lot on good cooling system. I agree that a system intended to be overclocked ideally should be overclocked - but, if I don't overclock, I can also spend less on cooling, such as ignore liquid cooling whatsoever, right?

3. No, I am going to play in usual 1080p. I, however, would like to buy a PC that will last and be able to handle almost any game on highest settings in the nearest 2-3 years. I don't think $2000 is too much to spend on a gaming PC in these circumstances, provided it will give me something that will still be good 3 years later.

[Eroginous]

1. RTS games will want a little more CPU horsepower over say a first person shooter game, but still won't really push a CPU to it's limits. If you have no definite plans on streaming then you can weigh the price difference between an i7 and an i5 (about $100).

2. If you have no plans on overclocking, then you can save a few dollars on non K CPU and a regular motherboard. However, don't be put off by overclocking, as it's super easy these days. Overheating isn't really an issue, even on an air cooler as long as it's a good one. You just want to make sure you have some extra fans in the case so you can maintain positive pressure.

3. PC parts/gaming have plateaued in terms of performance and the demand of newer/faster/better/prettier games. Right now you can buy a system and expect it to play any games that come out until PC development makes significant advancements in the way computers function. The only real difference between the current gen CPUs and older ones are the power consumption/heat generated. Speeds have stayed relatively the same and so have features.

[May90]

1. Thank you for suggestion. I looked into some i5 models and decided that $100 difference isn't worth it - since I will do some astrophysical calculations that utilize all threads relatively well, I guess i7 is a better choice.

2. Nice. In this case, I think I will pick the first option (the one with a single 780 Ti) without any liquid cooling or anything. If I really need more performance, I will do some overclocking, but I don't think there are any games I am going to play that non-overclocked 780 Ti cannot handle on max settings.

3. I agree with it. However, it should not necessarily be significant advancements, it can just be gradual improvement of nanoprocess, frequencies, drivers, etc. I bought GeForce 8800 GTS 320 card in 2007 and at that time it was relatively good. Since then, AFAIK, nothing really outstanding happened in the world of GPUs, they were just gradually being improved - but that same card that in 2007 was in a mid-to-high range, in 2010 looked quite bad. While, for example, top card of 2007, GeForce 8800 GTX Ultra, still did quite well. I guess, when we talk about periods of 3+ years, it is better to buy something that looks really good today - then it still won't be so outdated by then.

Anyway, I think everything is clear for me. Except for the one thing: is there really any difference in cooling between mid-tower and full-tower cases? The price difference is over $100, and full tower is quite huge and probably won't fit under my table - I'd prefer a smaller case, if it doesn't interfere with cooling.

Ah, and I have 1 more question. Those custom built PCs we can build on sites like AvaDirect or iBuyPower - how do their warranties do with the possible upgrades? For example, I bought a system and decided to add to it one more 780 Ti in a year - will I be able to do it without ending the warranty?

[surrounded]

I would go with a mid-tower that is able to fit a full ATX motherboard. Full towers are huge and the space is not needed. Just make sure the dimensions of your case are able to accommodate your 780ti. I have been very fond of the cubes for a while now, although they actually take up more of a footprint, they are very low to the ground, not to mention beautiful. Cough cough ** Corsair Air 540 **.

For cooling, I would stray away from liquid cooling unless you are doing a complete custom loop build, which I doubt you want to do considering you are not even interested in overclocking. Closed loop systems are not as efficient and you are often given very loud fans that you will have to replace (if noise is an issue at all for you), bring up the cost. I would go for a NH-D14 or an NH-D15 (recently released). The D14 is well known to be one of the best (if not the best) air cooler on the market for many years. It's huge, it's massive, and it is amazing. Very quite and efficient. Not to mention that without liquid cooling, you do not have to stress about possible leaks (albeit rare) or the replacement of parts/coolant.

As a side note, I think you could save your money and stick to one 780ti.

[Eroginous]

I agree with it. However, it should not necessarily be significant advancements, it can just be gradual improvement of nanoprocess, frequencies, drivers, etc. I bought GeForce 8800 GTS 320 card in 2007 and at that time it was relatively good. Since then, AFAIK, nothing really outstanding happened in the world of GPUs, they were just gradually being improved - but that same card that in 2007 was in a mid-to-high range, in 2010 looked quite bad. While, for example, top card of 2007, GeForce 8800 GTX Ultra, still did quite well. I guess, when we talk about periods of 3+ years, it is better to buy something that looks really good today - then it still won't be so outdated by then.

What I meant is that within the last few generations of parts there hasn't been significant improvements in performance or changes in hardware design (outside of SSDs and maybe wireless networking). Most current games can run on hardware that's nearly 10 years old. I run Wow on ultra settings with a core 2 duo (that I refuse to replace) and a new 750 ti. We're talking barely mid level gaming machine that plays just about every game on the market (except watch dogs because it requires a quad core, though I'm sure I could still play it).

You don't have to worry about being unable to play games 3+ years from now with a $1500 machine. You could save some money now and do something fun with it.

Anyway, I think everything is clear for me. Except for the one thing: is there really any difference in cooling between mid-tower and full-tower cases? The price difference is over $100, and full tower is quite huge and probably won't fit under my table - I'd prefer a smaller case, if it doesn't interfere with cooling.

You want to eliminate as much unused space as possible to maximize your air flow. If you don't plan on ever doing SLI or multi monitor setups and 1 gfx card is good for you, think about getting a mATX board and case. The more empty space inside your case, the harder your fans have to work to keep it cool. Plan your build around form factor and use a case that efficiently uses all the available space.

Ah, and I have 1 more question. Those custom built PCs we can build on sites like AvaDirect or iBuyPower - how do their warranties do with the possible upgrades? For example, I bought a system and decided to add to it one more 780 Ti in a year - will I be able to do it without ending the warranty?

Each place usually defers to a standard build warranty, if any parts are DoA they'll replace them usually within 30-60 days, and then you have to contact the manufacturer about any other warranties. It's better to buy your components separate and have them shipped to you before assembly because that way your chances of parts surviving the shipping process is much higher. USPS/FedEx/UPS all have their fair share of assholes that like to abuse the items they transport. Packaging everything individually reduces the mass of each object being shipped and increases the chances of not being DoA.

Ship a fully assembled machine? You're looking at heavy parts like the CPU cooler, graphics card, or Hard drives potentially coming loose during the shipping process and significantly damaging the rest of your machine. If you consult any shipping company on how to package an item, they suggest you wrap it well enough to survive a fall of ~10 feet. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want my custom built PC being dropped from 2feet, no matter how well it's packaged.

Worst case scenario, you can always have the parts shipped do you (they'll be cheaper anyway) and then have someone build it in person. A friend or relative who knows what they are doing, you could always do it yourself and consult the thousands of tutorials on how to do it, or you could have a local PC place do it in person.

[May90]

I would go with a mid-tower that is able to fit a full ATX motherboard. Full towers are huge and the space is not needed. Just make sure the dimensions of your case are able to accommodate your 780ti. I have been very fond of the cubes for a while now, although they actually take up more of a footprint, they are very low to the ground, not to mention beautiful. Cough cough ** Corsair Air 540 **.

For cooling, I would stray away from liquid cooling unless you are doing a complete custom loop build, which I doubt you want to do considering you are not even interested in overclocking. Closed loop systems are not as efficient and you are often given very loud fans that you will have to replace (if noise is an issue at all for you), bring up the cost. I would go for a NH-D14 or an NH-D15 (recently released). The D14 is well known to be one of the best (if not the best) air cooler on the market for many years. It's huge, it's massive, and it is amazing. Very quite and efficient. Not to mention that without liquid cooling, you do not have to stress about possible leaks (albeit rare) or the replacement of parts/coolant.

As a side note, I think you could save your money and stick to one 780ti.

OK, so, I think, it makes sense to get a full tower if I plan on adding one more GPU in the future, otherwise mid tower should be fine.

Thanks for your explanation about liquid cooling. Since they are also so expensive, I think I will make it without one. And, yes, I am more and more leaning towards 780ti. I will wait for the release of the 800s series anyway, just to make sure I choose the best available option.

What I meant is that within the last few generations of parts there hasn't been significant improvements in performance or changes in hardware design (outside of SSDs and maybe wireless networking). Most current games can run on hardware that's nearly 10 years old. I run Wow on ultra settings with a core 2 duo (that I refuse to replace) and a new 750 ti. We're talking barely mid level gaming machine that plays just about every game on the market (except watch dogs because it requires a quad core, though I'm sure I could still play it).

You don't have to worry about being unable to play games 3+ years from now with a $1500 machine. You could save some money now and do something fun with it.

Yes, but there is a difference between being able to play and being able to PLAY. I had GeForce 2 card (the weakest one from the series released in early 2000; it featured 16mb internal memory!) up to 2007 and was able to play, pretty much, any game on "lower than minimal" settings (the only game which I really didn't manage to run well was Crysis: even with all minimal settings and some tweaks, it still didn't get much above 2-3 FPS). On the other hand, on my current laptop's 560m I can make even such an outdated game as Neverwinter Nights (released in 2002) run at 5 FPS, by turning on 32 MSAA + 8 SSAA. So, there is always a way to use a GPU to its full potential, beyond any game's maximal settings, and there is (almost) always a way to run any game at lower than minimal settings on any GPU released in the latest decade.

But I understand what you mean. Certainly the difference in performance between top cards released in 2009 and in 2014 is much smaller than between those released in 1999 and 2004 - current technology is reaching its peak performance, and soon we will need to make some real breakthrough to go further. Still, I guess, it is better to get the best available today, since it will fare better in tough games and allow to turn on some extra crazy settings in less GPU-intensive games - I just cannot see how it can harm to get a better card anyway. And, well, since I originally expected to be buying a PC for over $3000 and now reduced it down to $2000, I've already saved more money than I can possibly save by buying cheaper components.

You want to eliminate as much unused space as possible to maximize your air flow. If you don't plan on ever doing SLI or multi monitor setups and 1 gfx card is good for you, think about getting a mATX board and case. The more empty space inside your case, the harder your fans have to work to keep it cool. Plan your build around form factor and use a case that efficiently uses all the available space.

Yes, but cramped space is no good either since the air just won't have enough volume to effectively flow through. I'm pretty sure mATX is just a no-go with modern high-end hardware. But you make a good point; I guess full tower is not really an optimal solution.

Each place usually defers to a standard build warranty, if any parts are DoA they'll replace them usually within 30-60 days, and then you have to contact the manufacturer about any other warranties. It's better to buy your components separate and have them shipped to you before assembly because that way your chances of parts surviving the shipping process is much higher. USPS/FedEx/UPS all have their fair share of assholes that like to abuse the items they transport. Packaging everything individually reduces the mass of each object being shipped and increases the chances of not being DoA.

Ship a fully assembled machine? You're looking at heavy parts like the CPU cooler, graphics card, or Hard drives potentially coming loose during the shipping process and significantly damaging the rest of your machine. If you consult any shipping company on how to package an item, they suggest you wrap it well enough to survive a fall of ~10 feet. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want my custom built PC being dropped from 2feet, no matter how well it's packaged.

Worst case scenario, you can always have the parts shipped do you (they'll be cheaper anyway) and then have someone build it in person. A friend or relative who knows what they are doing, you could always do it yourself and consult the thousands of tutorials on how to do it, or you could have a local PC place do it in person.

Well, I am quite experienced with computer hardware, so to build a system from shipped components is not a problem for me (I might mess up with CPU cooling paste since I've never applied it myself though). However, if I order the parts separately, they will also be shipped separately, right? And I will have to pay for delivery of each one, so the net sum might be even higher. I live in a province, there are very few local stores here and they don't offer high-end equipment, so they will have to ship it from Chicago (100 miles from me) or something - it won't be cheap.
I might just order everything in 1 package from Newegg - but then I don't see how it is different in terms of reliability from ordering already built PC.

Also, when I order separate parts, there is much higher risk of some part being broken, while in good building companies (such as AvaDirect) they test the PC before shipping it.

Finally, there is some little probability of occasionally ordering incompatible components when getting all parts separately. While companies check the compatibility beforehand and can always contact me if they notice something their builder didn't.

Or am I mistaken in some of this?

Also, shouldn't those companies have some kind of reliable delivery service? I guess, if all they use is UPS/FedEx, then they would have to replace every 5th PC or so, which would strike them financially.

[Deleted]

Most important thing i would suggest is to ask for help with a setup when you ready to purchase. Prices can change enough till then and new things come out all the time.

[Eroginous]

Yes, but cramped space is no good either since the air just won't have enough volume to effectively flow through. I'm pretty sure mATX is just a no-go with modern high-end hardware. But you make a good point; I guess full tower is not really an optimal solution.

Not quite true. People put that hardware you're looking at into mini ITX cases they can shove into a backpack and carry around with them. Here's an example: http://pcpartpicker.com/b/ZkVnTW

You just don't want a bunch of dead space where your fans aren't doing anything to circulate that air. It traps heat and can increase the temp of your case by several degrees.

Well, I am quite experienced with computer hardware, so to build a system from shipped components is not a problem for me (I might mess up with CPU cooling paste since I've never applied it myself though). However, if I order the parts separately, they will also be shipped separately, right? And I will have to pay for delivery of each one, so the net sum might be even higher. I live in a province, there are very few local stores here and they don't offer high-end equipment, so they will have to ship it from Chicago (100 miles from me) or something - it won't be cheap.
I might just order everything in 1 package from Newegg - but then I don't see how it is different in terms of reliability from ordering already built PC.

Thermal paste is pretty easy to do, there are tons of guides.

As far as shipping costs go, each item and website will have different costs. Amazon tends to have free shipping on orders above $35, Newegg tends to have free shipping on discounted items. I think both offer free 2-3 day shipping if you're signed up for their programs. Just glancing over the list I linked, a good number of the items on it are available with free shipping options. If you buy multiple parts from places, they try to combine them into the same box to save shipping and avoid lost packages. Last parts I bought from Newegg were all shipped together.

Also, when I order separate parts, there is much higher risk of some part being broken, while in good building companies (such as AvaDirect) they test the PC before shipping it.

Yes, they test the PC before shipping it, that's not the problem. The issue is how items are handled during shipping. You can Google videos of employees trashing packages. I've ordered quite a few parts over the internet and I've never had a DoA item (knock on wood) in the 10 years I've been building PCs. The few friends I've had use those PC builder services have had to send parts back because they arrived dead. I'm not saying you can't get DoA parts by buying things separately, but the way components fit together inside a machine, it's easy to break something with too much movement.

If you read the fine print of those services, they even offer to ship heavier components uninstalled to minimize the chances of there being a problem during shipping.

Finally, there is some little probability of occasionally ordering incompatible components when getting all parts separately. While companies check the compatibility beforehand and can always contact me if they notice something their builder didn't.

If you use something like PartPicker to build what you want before you order parts, you shouldn't run into any compatibility issues. The only thing PartPicker isn't really good at is knowing the clearance of certain parts when they fit together. Like how tall ram sticks are and whether or not a CPU cooler will fit a motherboard without crashing into them. You have to read specs on the websites to make sure stuff like that will fit. Otherwise, the compatibility filter is on by default and it will warn you if there's an issue. If your PSU isn't powerful enough for the parts you've selected, if the case is too small to fit certain components, if the CPU doesn't fit the socket on the motherboard, if the ram isn't compatible with a certain board, ect.

Partpicker gives a lot of great info on parts and is one of the most valuable tools a person can use when PC shopping. The only thing it doesn't do is give detailed pictures (you can always click the newegg link for an item to get a better idea of how the item will look).

Also, shouldn't those companies have some kind of reliable delivery service? I guess, if all they use is UPS/FedEx, then they would have to replace every 5th PC or so, which would strike them financially.

Unless they pay someone to personally drive it from their warehouse to your front door, it's pretty much standard USPS/UPS/Fedex delivery. And they don't lose money if they have to replace a part or two in a PC. Retail companies have a contract with a supplier that allows them to get credit for any items that are returned defective. If your new PC arrives with a DoA hard drive, you're the one paying the shipping costs to return it to the company, who then puts it on a truck to send it back to the manufacturer. Then the company gets a credit for a new hard drive and sends it out to you, saving on shipping because they get a business discount with postal services.

Meanwhile, the company who makes the hard drive you sent back refurbishes it if possible, cleans it up, repackages it, and ships it back to the company to sell at a discount. I've helped a lot of friends shop for and build computers. I've even sat there on skype patiently walking them though the assembly of their brand new PC or troubleshooting a problematic one.

Of all my friends, I've only had one who was adamant about not doing a single thing to put it together. He even refused to have his video card shipped uninstalled to avoid damage. When his new rig finally came, it wouldn't power up. There was no post screen, no error codes, nothing. It took us 30 minutes of skype video chatting to narrow it down to a single stick of ram, which he ended up having to send back for replacement.

Through it all, we ended up taking his PC almost completely apart to figure out what was wrong, so he had to put the damn thing back together anyway. The real kicker was the site he used only offered parts that were 2 generations old. He could have gotten a better machine with newer hardware for the same price, put it together himself, and avoided the risks of shipping an assembled PC.

/shrug, it's entirely up to you. I don't have much confidence in postal services, I'd rather not receive an item that was on the wrong end of someone's bad day.

If you would like some help putting together a list, lemme know.

[May90]

Not quite true. People put that hardware you're looking at into mini ITX cases they can shove into a backpack and carry around with them. Here's an example: http://pcpartpicker.com/b/ZkVnTW

You just don't want a bunch of dead space where your fans aren't doing anything to circulate that air. It traps heat and can increase the temp of your case by several degrees.

Yes, that makes sense, but, still, I will take mid tower probably. I will just put more fans in there, and the amount of space will allow me to add one more GPU later should I need it.

Thermal paste is pretty easy to do, there are tons of guides.

As far as shipping costs go, each item and website will have different costs. Amazon tends to have free shipping on orders above $35, Newegg tends to have free shipping on discounted items. I think both offer free 2-3 day shipping if you're signed up for their programs. Just glancing over the list I linked, a good number of the items on it are available with free shipping options. If you buy multiple parts from places, they try to combine them into the same box to save shipping and avoid lost packages. Last parts I bought from Newegg were all shipped together.

Interesting. If they ship everything together, then I guess that would be the way to go. It also would save a lot of money I would normally spend on warranty of a PC and other services. Still, as they ship it, isn't it prone to the same damage you mentioned above? Surely it is a bit more safer since components are not attached to each other and do not have all those tension points, but, still, if they drop the whole package in UPS or something, something might break, right?

As for the rest, I think you have convinced me that buying separate parts is better. I used to buy pre-built computers where I lived before since there was a huge computer shop nearby and I could just pick up the case and bring it to my house on foot. Here, however, I haven't seen such shops around, and if things as on the Youtube video really happen (it actually gave me a chill), then I'd better not risk it.

I will think about it. I planned on buying the PC on Christmas, so there is plenty of time to refine the component list. Thank you very much for your advice!

- - - Updated - - -

OK, so I used Newegg website to put together some sample of parts I would combine a PC from. Here they are ($0.99 is changed into $1 for simplicity):

Intel Core i7-4790K - $340
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-369-_-Product

ASUS B85-PLUS LGA 1150 ATX - $106
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-996-_-Product

CORSAIR Vengeance Pro 16GB 1600 - $165
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-538-_-Product

MyDigitalSSD 128GB (120GB) - $70
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...6922-_-Product

Seagate Barracuda 500GB 7200RPM - $55
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-767-_-Product

ASUS GTX780TI 3GB - $700
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-838-_-Product

IN WIN G7 ATX - $60
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-122-_-Product

Thermaltake SMART PSU 750W - $70
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-174-_-Product

ZALMAN CNPS9500A - $43
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-223-_-Product

Total price: $1609

If I haven't forgotten something, this is 20% cheaper than a pre-made PC made of the same components! Perhaps I will need to spare a few more dollars for more fans (I don't know how many fans come with the case), but still it is way lower than my intended budget. No idea what to upgrade really: I don't need more RAM or hard drive space, and the GPU and CPU are already the best available on market... Maybe it even makes sense to purchase two 780ti at once, although I really do not know what I would spend this crazy power on. So, I guess, that's what I'm doing: purchasing separate parts. Thank you Eroginous!

Now, this is only an approximate config, and I am still waiting for the 800 GeForce series to come, so it will be changed multiple times. But as of now, do you have any suggestions on what to improve, provided I can extend budget up to $2500 or so but don't want to overpay for anything that won't improve performance or temperatures?

[glo]

I wouldn't waste time planning a build 5 months away. New hardware will be out, prices will be different and game requirements will change.

[May90]

I wouldn't waste time planning a build 5 months away. New hardware will be out, prices will be different and game requirements will change.

Well, most of the hardware is going to be pretty much the same. GeForce 800s are going to come out, but, other than that, the only difference will be in prices.

Besides, it is always good to know what level of hardware I can expect for my budget and correct it if necessary.

[Eroginous]

If I haven't forgotten something, this is 20% cheaper than a pre-made PC made of the same components! Perhaps I will need to spare a few more dollars for more fans (I don't know how many fans come with the case), but still it is way lower than my intended budget. No idea what to upgrade really: I don't need more RAM or hard drive space, and the GPU and CPU are already the best available on market... Maybe it even makes sense to purchase two 780ti at once, although I really do not know what I would spend this crazy power on. So, I guess, that's what I'm doing: purchasing separate parts. Thank you Eroginous!

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/MMjXVn

Check this list out.

The board you listed previously isn't overclockable and it's a full sized ATX board (won't fit into a mid ATX case if that's really what you want).

Still, as they ship it, isn't it prone to the same damage you mentioned above? Surely it is a bit more safer since components are not attached to each other and do not have all those tension points, but, still, if they drop the whole package in UPS or something, something might break, right?

There's always a risk to shipping something through the mail. But when you look at a single PC component, it's packaged specifically to survive the shipping process. There's usually an outer carton, inner carton, and some sort of protective padding on the inside (foam, peanuts, bubblewrap, blister pack, ect). When you ship a computer that's built, there isn't a packag designed specifically to make sure each part is protected during shipping. They will put air bags on the inside between components, put the PC back in the box the case came out of, put packing foam around the PC, and then ship it to you.

If it gets jostled enough, things can come loose and cause damage. Shipping things disassembled the only thing you have to worry about is some asshole intentionally damaging the packaging and the item inside.

[TaintedOne]

Well, most of the hardware is going to be pretty much the same. GeForce 800s are going to come out, but, other than that, the only difference will be in prices.

Besides, it is always good to know what level of hardware I can expect for my budget and correct it if necessary.

iirc Broadwell cpus are due out q4 2014. glo is correct waste to come up with a list of parts now wait say... two week before you are ready to order or less even to finalize everything.

[moremana]

By Christmas, all the new maxwells will be out, the 880 is slated next month and it is suppose to trade punches with the 780Ti and cost average $200 less and run cooler with less power. I haven't checked lately about CPUs.

Memory is also suppose to take a dip in price, I said suppose to, I have no way to confirm other than hearing it through the grapevine at work.

I would hold of even speculating on what to get until a week before time to buy.

[May90]

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/MMjXVn

Check this list out.

The board you listed previously isn't overclockable and it's a full sized ATX board (won't fit into a mid ATX case if that's really what you want).

Hmm, are you sure ATX won't fit into a Mid Tower case? In some threads I've found on Tom's Hardware, people are pretty sure that ATX will fit into it, but for EATX (Extended ATX), indeed, Full Tower is required.

Thank you very much for the list. There are a couple things I'd like to clarify:
1) I don't think I really need 500GB SSD. I am not sure I need an SSD at all, but with such a good system I think it is a waste not to take a cheap one. Still, I never keep too many applications/games on PC, so I think 120/128GB SSD should do fine, and for data some usual HDD 500GB will be more than enough.
2) You put 3 fans into the list. Don't the fans come with the case, or do you always need to buy them separately?

There's always a risk to shipping something through the mail. But when you look at a single PC component, it's packaged specifically to survive the shipping process. There's usually an outer carton, inner carton, and some sort of protective padding on the inside (foam, peanuts, bubblewrap, blister pack, ect). When you ship a computer that's built, there isn't a packag designed specifically to make sure each part is protected during shipping. They will put air bags on the inside between components, put the PC back in the box the case came out of, put packing foam around the PC, and then ship it to you.

If it gets jostled enough, things can come loose and cause damage. Shipping things disassembled the only thing you have to worry about is some asshole intentionally damaging the packaging and the item inside.

I see. In that case, there is indeed little sense getting a pre-built PC when getting separate parts is cheaper, quicker and more reliable.

Tainted One and moremana:
Yes, I understand that this list will change dramatically in a few months. I'm just experimenting with some approximate lists to get the feeling of the pricing, to understand how much I can get from my budget. Even though the new CPUs/GPUs are coming, I doubt the performance/price ratio will change significantly - they do on large scales of time, but rarely in a few months.

[Eroginous]

Hmm, are you sure ATX won't fit into a Mid Tower case? In some threads I've found on Tom's Hardware, people are pretty sure that ATX will fit into it, but for EATX (Extended ATX), indeed, Full Tower is required.

My bad, I was thinking ATX won't fit into a micro ATX case and wrote mid instead.

Thank you very much for the list. There are a couple things I'd like to clarify:
1) I don't think I really need 500GB SSD. I am not sure I need an SSD at all, but with such a good system I think it is a waste not to take a cheap one. Still, I never keep too many applications/games on PC, so I think 120/128GB SSD should do fine, and for data some usual HDD 500GB will be more than enough.

SSDs are a new technology and will replace standard mechanical drives completely at some point. Right now you can already do that for a good price if you're not in need of several terabytes of storage. You're buying yourself a Christmas present, might as well spend a little extra and get an SSD for the performance gains all around and not get a mechanical hard drive at all.

2) You put 3 fans into the list. Don't the fans come with the case, or do you always need to buy them separately?

Most cases only come with 1-2 fans, but have room for several more. That particular case I linked has room for two 120mm fans up top, two 120mm fans in the bottom (or one 230mm), and one 140mm fan in the back. It comes with two 120mm fans (one in the back and one in the bottom), so I decided to fill it out with the rest of the fans you would want to get to make sure you've got adequate airflow. You could even skip the two fans in the top and go for a 240mm radiator and water cool the CPU, but that's really not necessary if you stick with the air cooler I put in there.

Since you are thinking about SLI support in the future, you could go with this build (slightly more expensive mobo) and still stick with the mATX form factor. There's really no reason to go beyond mATX if you aren't planning on doing something crazy like quad SLI or filling out all those extra PCI/PCIe slots with hardware.

[May90]

SSDs are a new technology and will replace standard mechanical drives completely at some point. Right now you can already do that for a good price if you're not in need of several terabytes of storage. You're buying yourself a Christmas present, might as well spend a little extra and get an SSD for the performance gains all around and not get a mechanical hard drive at all.

With SSD, I may be mistaken as of now, but when I was looking for a laptop in 2010, I read many times that SSD were not very reliable then and their lifetime was much lower than that of a normal drive. Has the situation changed much?

Also, the thing is, I never keep more on my PC than I really need. For example, I currently play Starcraft 2, Baldur's Gate: EE and Dragon Age: Origins - and these 3 games are the only ones installed. Together with OS and 2-3 scientific applications, I rarely really need more than 60-70 GB. Now, if I am going to stream some day (I consider this possibility), then, indeed, I will need much more than that - but, I guess, a normal drive is more than enough to stream 1080p in the real time.

I would consider getting 500GB SSD or so, but I'd like to make sure first that their longevity is, at least, comparable to that of normal drives.

EDIT: Never mind, I did some research and found out that good SSD have even longer lifespan than average HDD. My information was outdated. Very well, I'll probably get a 500GB SSD.

Most cases only come with 1-2 fans, but have room for several more. That particular case I linked has room for two 120mm fans up top, two 120mm fans in the bottom (or one 230mm), and one 140mm fan in the back. It comes with two 120mm fans (one in the back and one in the bottom), so I decided to fill it out with the rest of the fans you would want to get to make sure you've got adequate airflow. You could even skip the two fans in the top and go for a 240mm radiator and water cool the CPU, but that's really not necessary if you stick with the air cooler I put in there.

Since you are thinking about SLI support in the future, you could go with this build (slightly more expensive mobo) and still stick with the mATX form factor. There's really no reason to go beyond mATX if you aren't planning on doing something crazy like quad SLI or filling out all those extra PCI/PCIe slots with hardware.

Thank you, this seems better. I still would like to get a normal ATX card though and a mid tower case, just to have some space in case I eventually decide to add an audio card (no idea why I would need it, but I am quite a musician and in the far future, 3 years later or so, I might decide to write music on my piano through computer software), decide to go extreme overclocking and have to put all kinds of liquid cooling and such inside (very low probability, I am VERY negative about overclocking, but who knows how it changes later)... And just to be more future proof: eventually I will need to buy new components - these will get really old in 5 years or so - and I will be able to save on case then, regardless of what sizes typical computer components by that time have.

Other than that, everything seems awesome. Maybe better to take a higher PSU, like 750W - 2 cards in SLI might require some additional power. Also I am not sure what the best RAM is to get - AFAIK, the differences in performance in "normal" applications are negligible between them since they are much faster than what CPU and GPU can process anyway, and the last time I bought RAM separately was 8 years ago, DDR2 back then.

[Eroginous]

Here's a review of the board I listed in the build. ASUS has outdone themselves feature-wise with this family of boards, you won't need to get an addon card for good audio. You also don't need to get water cooling to overclock. The CPU in this list has a base clock of 4.0 GHz, boost clock of 4.4 GHz, and will overclock on air as far as you can push it. Remember, this generation of hardware is all about lower power consumption and lower heat.

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/mLXP8d