1. #1
    The Lightbringer Gaiwyn's Avatar
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    Question Combating Ninja'ing

    This post is two part: the first addresses something that Blizzard has improved a lot but not completely solved; the second is a question as to whether it will be further addressed or exacerbated come the WoD stat changes.

    I was running a level 30-ish dungeon last night - a rare event for me, as I have very little opportunity to have the time to run an instance of any sort. It was Razorfen Kraul and I felt the impulse to queue for it and clear it on the off chance that a particular Polearm would drop for my Windwalker Monk. The weapon did drop, and I was pretty stoked because there wasn't a hunter present. I rolled need and waited. But the Polearm never arrived in my bags. A DPS warrior had actually rolled need on it and won it over me.

    So my first question is: why have Blizzard never completely addressed this in low-level settings? There used to be a time when anyone could roll whatever they chose on any given item in low-level instances. Then they restriced it so that if you could use it you could roll Need; and in higher level instances you are very limited in what you are allowed to roll on. If one player class can selfishly take something that should have gone to another player class because it benefits them more, there is still something wrong with the system.

    Okay, so I got over it because I'll level through the 30s regardless of having a Level 20 staff or a Level 32 Polearm (even though it was a humongous upgrade), and maybe eventually have the means to get an Heirloom weapon to last my Monk to level 85. It's still rude that someone would take something with AGI clearly affixed to it when they should be focussing on items with STR on them.

    Which leads to my next point of ponderance. With the stat changes in WoD, are we going to see more contention over item drops (e.g. both Moonkin druids and rogues rolling on the same chest piece because their primary stat is going to be highlighted when they equip it), thus exacerbating this ongoing issue of people taking things that would better serve others. Or are we going to see more problems solved in that there is more selection of gear and therefore there can be more diversity between what any given player of the same class/spec as other players sports on their character and what other players of the same class/spec put on theirs?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't weapons going to only have secondary and, potentially, tertiary stats on them (as well as spell/attack power)? All I can think is that even more classes/specs will be fighting to win the same weapon. Except hunters, of course; they strike it lucky in that no one else has a use for ranged weapons. Damn hunters.

  2. #2
    Can warriors use polearms? Yes. Could it have possibly been even a slight upgrade for the warrior? Yes. The warrior is well within their rights to roll on it no matter how shitty that may be. If you are going for a specific loot item then don't count on getting it in LFD, get 1 or more friends and run the place yourselves.
    On the second part of your post: no idea at all

  3. #3
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    The post above is correct. The warrior was within his rights to need on it. It's possible it was someone who didn't know better. Did you ask him about it in the party chat?

    For loot dropping in WoD, I'm not sure. I haven't done the raid testing. It's possible, though, that that might be an issue.



  4. #4
    High Overlord Gisen's Avatar
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    Theres also a matter of transmog, even if the item itself is not an upgrade, wanting something for transmog seems fairly reasonable in a random group.
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  5. #5
    Mechagnome Magewang's Avatar
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    Is this an issue really? Come on I was expecting a serious thread, but some guy ninja'd a polearm in a level 30 group? A piece of gear you will no doubt replace in a few more dungeons. I think everybody rolls need on everything in that situation, it is just the way of low level dungeon finder. There is no ninjaing no serious problem whatsoever.

    I suggest making a ticket and have the GM laugh in your face, if it makes you feel better?

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    Last edited by Magewang; 2014-08-07 at 03:36 AM.

  6. #6
    Moderator Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gisen View Post
    Theres also a matter of transmog, even if the item itself is not an upgrade, wanting something for transmog seems fairly reasonable in a random group.
    That is where I would disagree.

    Transmog need shoulder be lower than the need to use it. If someone doesn't need it, sure, it is fine but else no. Generally how I treat that view, even for random groups. Want transmog gear to be only for you, then solo the content or make your own group.
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  7. #7
    Herald of the Titans Mighty Blue Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    The post above is correct. The warrior was within his rights to need on it. It's possible it was someone who didn't know better. Did you ask him about it in the party chat?

    For loot dropping in WoD, I'm not sure. I haven't done the raid testing. It's possible, though, that that might be an issue.
    Needing for stats>transmog. Always been that way.

    If someone wants it for mob then go back and rerun it yourself.

  8. #8
    The first question is, why, at this point, don't you have the BoA weapon? Sheesh, I've SEVERAL sets of each and every BoA at this point, there's really been nothing else to spend points on.

    Secondly, as you said, you'll level through without that weapon in no time flat anyway, and eventually pick up better. And if I am thinking of the correct polearm, I can't say I've ever run that place and only ever had ONE drop - usually two or three do. Unless they made it to where only the boss drops it now, and not the minions as well?

    Thirdly, not everyone knows proper loot etiquette, and even those that do, some don't abide by it. I've had several issues where, in lower level dungeons, mail/plate wearers will roll on leather gear just because it has more stamina on it or something. Said item could've been a massive upgrade for me (sometime it would be replacing white gear, giving me a big boost) or could've been almost completely useless to the person who rolled on it. Some people just like being dicks.

    I rolled a level 24 Undead Rogue twink with a friend. We queued up for BFD to get the gloves and bracers, bracers of which came from an optional boss that not everyone wanted to do. It took me and my friend over ONE HUNDRED RUNS to get the fucking bracers, because every time they dropped, NEITHER of us would win them because some other tard decided to take them, even when we'd state at the beginning that they were all we were looking for. We eventually got geared enough that we could duo the instance and FINALLY got them.

    Seriously though, if I'm in a run and someone states they are there specifically for something I know I can wear, or even if I can't, I will gladly pass on it for them. Especially in low level instances (1-70 usually) I really don't give a hoot about gear, depending on the class and BoAs I'm using.

    I'm not trying to bash you OP, as a matter of fact, I completely agree, and I feel your pain.
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  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Gaiwyn's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback. I was kind of looking for thoughts on comparing how things are now (much improved over how they used to be, even in low level instances) and how they are likely to be in WoD. I wonder if the whole issue of stats on gear / transmog / "it's an upgrade so I'll take it even though it benefits other people in my group more" will be better or worse (i.e. more or less of an issue).

    As for getting the heirloom weapon/weapons, I spent what JP I had on my main on the chestpiece. I honestly don't play enough to really build it up to that point again anytime soon. Either way, the monk has been fun to play so far. It would have been better to get the weapon over the chest, anyway, as with so much XP gain you outlevel zones way too fast. >.<

    I feel anyone's pain if they run something over and over without success. At the end of the day, it honestly cannot be worth it. Unless, of course, it is something unique like a rare drop mount, or a transmog item you simply must have (I'm looking at you, Ignis, you punk).

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaiwyn View Post
    Thanks for the feedback. I was kind of looking for thoughts on comparing how things are now (much improved over how they used to be, even in low level instances) and how they are likely to be in WoD. I wonder if the whole issue of stats on gear / transmog / "it's an upgrade so I'll take it even though it benefits other people in my group more" will be better or worse (i.e. more or less of an issue).
    There are a dozen different opinions on this. So far there are only a handful of replies and each is a bit different. Nowadays, due to heirlooms, leveling dungeons gear drops are 95% for transmog, so feel free to need on anything you like. Also, higher levels (normally Outland ++, it seems in my experience people need roll on 80% of the drops for no other reason that you vendor. The need for gold is as important as the need for an upgrade or a transmog.

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  11. #11
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
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    if you can need on it and want it, (for whatever reason - transmog/small upgrade) then you are in your rights to roll need. It is the system in place. Need if need. Greed if Greed. DE if you want enchanting stuff.
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  12. #12
    The Lightbringer Zuben's Avatar
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    Strength or agi focus makes little difference when you're leveling, so it was within the warrior's right to upgrade his dps number.
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  13. #13
    Forget about ninjas, cuz individual loot will finally be implemented for 5ppls in WOD. Yea. 5 years of waiting for it to happen. How to combat ninjas? Short answer is: never do any group content with any loot system, other then personal loot.

    My own opinion on ninjaing:

    TL;DR "Need before greed" is not loot system itself - it just loot distribution tool. In order to make it work, players have to agree about some loot system. And as players can't agree about it, "Need before greed" system just isn't working and should be replaced by more sophisticated system, that removes conflict of interests factor from loot distribution - personal loot system.

    Every player should have equal rights to get loot from boss, cuz everybody invested into boss kill. Do you want to have some exclusive rights to get loot? Go do it solo. Can't do it solo? Form a group. Don't have or can't find people, who will pass all loot to you? Deal with the fact, that everybody in your group have equal rights on this loot! And "greed/disenchant" button gives equal rights for all players to get their reward for killing boss. So for what purpose do we actually have another button with higher priority then? This button is needed to give priority to some players. But! Players should be able to get priority only if other players in the group agree to pass loot to them! So. There should be some predefined agreement between players in order to make "Need before greed" system work. In old days players usually agreed to pass loot to other player, if this player took this items with clear intent to equip them. And there was a tool to punish those players, who violated this rule. Yea. This players simply were kicked. But things changed. Now you literally unable to kick anybody from instance. Due to stupid vote kick system with 100500 overlapping "anti-kick protection" conditions. And lack of social punishment tools caused very bad thing. Many players started to use simple rule - "I will need, whatever I want, just because I can". So. There is no more agreement among players about who is eligible to push "Need" button. So "Need before greed" system just isn't working in random group content. Randoms can't agree about anything by definition. Blizzard don't admit it, just because they are lazy and don't want to deal with 100500 loot conflict tickets, they would have to process, if they would try to set some more strict rules about loot distribution. So they simply say - working as intended. But if everybody pushes "Need" button anyway, then why should we have any buttons at all? That could be done automatically. Yea. That's why individual loot system will be implemented very soon. And I highly recommend you to use only this loot system in any PUG and random content. Ninjaing should be eliminated. Forever.
    Last edited by AVPaul; 2014-08-08 at 05:13 PM.
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