[7.3] Azortharion's Hunter Guides

[Tehterokkar]

Can you say at approx what ilvl Stomp will be better (is better in your sims)? Do we talk about 925 or 930 or 940?
Do you think it will be relevant during progression already or only later?

At the moment for me Stomp is like 35k ahead of DF with T19. In ToS with swapping Head, Shoulder, Cloak and Chest for T19 2pc/T20 4pc(heroic baseline), DF was ahead by like 2k DPS.

At around 920 average Stomp should pull ahead for sure, I'm only like 913 equipped because Bosses never drop WF/TF on the run I'm on my main with.

Most important thing is your itemization on gear though. Vers is bad for both builds. Try to have as little of it as possible.

DF build needs around 16% haste to have 100% uptime on 3 stacks during Bloodlust, and that's the only real cap that you need to worry about.

Stomp is just stacking crit until about 10k rating or more, depending on your mastery and haste levels. I'm at 10.1k Crit currently and Mastery just passed Crit in value, but I have very garbage gear, still lacking Botanist bracers(and Myth CoF) after months of farming.

[nacixems]

Overall NH in 7.2 - Play what you like: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#dataset=90

As of 7.2.5, MM is the strongest hunter spec in Nighthold overall: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...aset=90®ion=3
Is it far enough ahead to abandon your current spec for it? No.
Does it even matter to 90% of posters on mmo-c? No.
Does it translate to ToS performance? Not yet.
Are sims based on patchwerk and not representative of hectic mythic fights? Yes.

TLDR; stick to whatever your currently playing, the difference is small enough that individual performance, experience and optimal gearing will out weight what a sim dictates should be the higher theoretical dps.

this seems to be the most mature, reasonable statement i have seen in a while. lets give TOS some time before we all jump ship.

[Shakou]

Don't reply to me if you don't even read my posts. Nobody gives a shit what's good AFTER PROGRESSION.

The links he posted weren't after progression, he linked logs from during the periods he was referring to. Stop bullshitting we're not stupid. MM was only ever slightly ahead of BM.

[durrtygoodz]

The links he posted weren't after progression, he linked logs from during the periods he was referring to. Stop bullshitting we're not stupid. MM was only ever slightly ahead of BM.

MM was only ever slightly ahead of BM.

You've backed my point whilst also calling me a bullshitter...

[st33l]

You've backed my point whilst also calling me a bullshitter...

If there isn't any actual data backing your point, claiming what is better during progression is 'opinion'. Another opinion could be that unlimited mobility is much more valuable during progression.

Feel free to post opinions, as long as you recognize that they are opinions, not facts.

[durrtygoodz]

If there isn't any actual data backing your point, claiming what is better during progression is 'opinion'. Another opinion could be that unlimited mobility is much more valuable during progression.

Feel free to post opinions, as long as you recognize that they are opinions, not facts.

You don't need data to understand spec design and be able to come to logical conclusions as to which spec is better for progression and why. You didn't need a PHD to work out how good Sidewinders cleave was on Odyn and Helya in ToV.

[Guzrud]

Overall NH in 7.2 - Play what you like: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#dataset=90

As of 7.2.5, MM is the strongest hunter spec in Nighthold overall: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...et=90&region=3
Is it far enough ahead to abandon your current spec for it? No.
Does it even matter to 90% of posters on mmo-c? No.
Does it translate to ToS performance? Not yet.
Are sims based on patchwerk and not representative of hectic mythic fights? Yes.

TLDR; stick to whatever your currently playing, the difference is small enough that individual performance, experience and optimal gearing will out weight what a sim dictates should be the higher theoretical dps.

You know if you dont stop making sense on this forum you are going to get flamed. That whole making practical sense things just does not fly around here

[Eapoe]

If there isn't any actual data backing your point, claiming what is better during progression is 'opinion'. Another opinion could be that unlimited mobility is much more valuable during progression.

Feel free to post opinions, as long as you recognize that they are opinions, not facts.

There's not plenty of data proving his point if you look at logs during raid PROGRESSION, which also happens to be the biggest point of this whole debate.
Also, did you even read the post he replied to where Shakou said he was spouting bullshit but the best states it was ahead on progression. "Ahead on progression" means that it's the better of the specs for progression raiding. That's also been proven by the logs. What are you on about with "opinions?"

[Effinhunter]

BM was not well represented during both EN and ToV because hunter discord and this forum have been so toxic to rational discussion. Additionally, the legendary system was extremely prohibitive at the time to effectively switch specs. For a long time, Blizzard had a 4 legendary item soft cap for bad luck protection. If you got wrong legendaries, as I did, then you either had to play with crap legendaries or roll a new hunter.

During progression, this caused most of us who had started MM during EN because it was best spec getting stuck with MM legendaries. The numbers during ToV started to flip toward BM and people who had been keeping current with BM for mythic+ at the time gradually started to migrate toward BM for raiding as the soft caps were removed and BM parses went up because more competitive hunters began to switch to BM.

[Deleted]

not to mention that BM can do full dps on the move where as MM has to stand still. And depending on the fights in tomb, even if MM sims higher atm, Bm might be the specc togo simply because of that reason.

I think everyone will go survival once they realize how good harpoon utility actually is

[3clipse]

I think everyone will go survival once they realize how good harpoon utility actually is

It's good to have dreams.

[Coldfire989]

BM was not well represented during both EN and ToV because hunter discord and this forum have been so toxic to rational discussion. Additionally, the legendary system was extremely prohibitive at the time to effectively switch specs. For a long time, Blizzard had a 4 legendary item soft cap for bad luck protection. If you got wrong legendaries, as I did, then you either had to play with crap legendaries or roll a new hunter.

During progression, this caused most of us who had started MM during EN because it was best spec getting stuck with MM legendaries. The numbers during ToV started to flip toward BM and people who had been keeping current with BM for mythic+ at the time gradually started to migrate toward BM for raiding as the soft caps were removed and BM parses went up because more competitive hunters began to switch to BM.

Unfortunately the forum and the Discord have a "if you don't agree with me you are just wrong" attitude. Not surprising considering who runs the Discord.

[3clipse]

Echo chambers and groupthink are hardly unique to this forum and the Trueshot Discord. These particular examples can be pretty severe because the people at the top of each aggressively encourage the groupthink because of their own beliefs, but that's a pox upon the entire internet.

[Tharkkun]

The links he posted weren't after progression, he linked logs from during the periods he was referring to. Stop bullshitting we're not stupid. MM was only ever slightly ahead of BM.

TOV was released in 7.1 and NH during 7.1.5. The logs list TOV under 7.1.5 and NH under 7.2. Well progression is long over by that point. If you change it to 7.0-7.1 for TOV and 7.1.5 for NH then MM is on top.

[Shakou]

TOV was released in 7.1 and NH during 7.1.5. The logs list TOV under 7.1.5 and NH under 7.2. Well progression is long over by that point. If you change it to 7.0-7.1 for TOV and 7.1.5 for NH then MM is on top.

No one is questioning whether or not MM was ever on top the point is it was only marginally better. it was not so OMG wowzers that Bm wasn't playable or some shit.

[Pijips]

BM was not well represented during both EN and ToV because hunter discord and this forum have been so toxic to rational discussion. Additionally, the legendary system was extremely prohibitive at the time to effectively switch specs. For a long time, Blizzard had a 4 legendary item soft cap for bad luck protection. If you got wrong legendaries, as I did, then you either had to play with crap legendaries or roll a new hunter.

During progression, this caused most of us who had started MM during EN because it was best spec getting stuck with MM legendaries. The numbers during ToV started to flip toward BM and people who had been keeping current with BM for mythic+ at the time gradually started to migrate toward BM for raiding as the soft caps were removed and BM parses went up because more competitive hunters began to switch to BM.

EN and ToV fights favored MM pretty much across the board anyway, which you can't really overlook.

[Captain Proton]

- - - Updated - - -

Ah, you are correct. 7.1.5 was one week before NH came out. So then if we break it down by total time; BM has been the top spec about half the expac; or in 1 raid out of 3 (to be fair though, 1 10 boss raid, versus 2 raids with a total of 10 bosses).

This still doesn't change the fact that with the release of 7.1.5 and 7.2, the guide still said that MM is the goto spec for raiding. So it changes the guide from being 66% wrong to 50% wrong.

It's like you ignored my second link and second half of the post. BM didn't pass MM in Nighthold until 7.2. So it changes the guide to being right.

- - - Updated - - -

The links he posted weren't after progression, he linked logs from during the periods he was referring to. Stop bullshitting we're not stupid. MM was only ever slightly ahead of BM.

Wrong, he used the wrong patches and admitted to it. Stop bullshitting.

[Eapoe]

No one is questioning whether or not MM was ever on top the point is it was only marginally better. it was not so OMG wowzers that Bm wasn't playable or some shit.

People are questioning it, mainly in the form of "oh my god Azor is such a biased piece of shit scumbag tool that he states MM is the best progression based spec and hates all things BM!"
You even admit to MM being ahead of BM, but then change it around to "well, it was only slightly ahead." Either way, that means it was still ahead and therefore the best progression spec for the times people are talking about. You can't admit it was ahead (and therefore better for the styles of the encounters) and then say people are wrong for saying it was the better of the 2 specs.

- - - Updated - - -

BM was not well represented during both EN and ToV because hunter discord and this forum have been so toxic to rational discussion. Additionally, the legendary system was extremely prohibitive at the time to effectively switch specs. For a long time, Blizzard had a 4 legendary item soft cap for bad luck protection. If you got wrong legendaries, as I did, then you either had to play with crap legendaries or roll a new hunter.

During progression, this caused most of us who had started MM during EN because it was best spec getting stuck with MM legendaries. The numbers during ToV started to flip toward BM and people who had been keeping current with BM for mythic+ at the time gradually started to migrate toward BM for raiding as the soft caps were removed and BM parses went up because more competitive hunters began to switch to BM.

Not everyone is being toxic. Hell, Azor's not toxic in his guide even though he's toxic to the people who ask him questions about BM Hunter when he's already written about them.
Some simple facts about BM until 7.2: it was underrepresented because of a number of things. It required the absolute BiS legendaries on top of requiring specific relics to even have much of a chance of keeping up with MM on ST, and AoE/cleave it didn't stand a chance. This was also in part due to MM just slapping high ilvl relics into the weapon, having a low dependency on legendaries (it had the boots and belt which skyrocketed it but performed better than BM without), and fights designed for spread AoE/Cleave. This also held for ToV for 2 out of the 3 fights, and a lot of progression fights in EN.
BM didn't see much of a surge in numbers until MM was nerfed and BM got buffed bringing them closer together. Even THEN, BM was still lagging behind for progression unless they had specific legendaries to up their damage and/or a specific ST fight.
Now, I'm not saying BM is horrible, or was horrible (entirely); however, until the nerfs to MM hit along with buffs to BM, and still having the right legendaries, BM was severely lacking in what was needed for progression.
Obviously, in ToS that can change, but with current sims and the knowledge players have now, MM will continue being the better of the 2 specs in both performance (until fights get shorter for burst specs) and progression. NOT saying you can't play BM for those things, but in regards to the better of the 2, so far it is shaping up to be MM again.

[Ceylina]

What is up with the rating specs on the front page of the guide? It's a BM guide not a "yeah you play BM but here is a subtle hint the MM is better you loser". No reason to have that there.

[durrtygoodz]

What is up with the rating specs on the front page of the guide? It's a BM guide not a "yeah you play BM but here is a subtle hint the MM is better you loser". No reason to have that there.

Maybe, just maybe, it's to address the 500 people a day that enter discord and ask "WHAT SPEC IS BEST WHAT DO I PLAY?!"