1. #14441
    Is the Hunter APL in Simcraft accurate?

  2. #14442
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    People are questioning it, mainly in the form of "oh my god Azor is such a biased piece of shit scumbag tool that he states MM is the best progression based spec and hates all things BM!"
    You even admit to MM being ahead of BM
    No I don't. It's not. When it has been It's so marginal it does not even matter. Really. It's not even a 5% dps difference you're out of your mind and no MM is not ahead right now right no no one has done TOS bosses in TOS gear on live and has logs.

    But when MM is ahead you people tend to act like it's awesome, and it's not. It's a really horribly designed spec that is not rewarding enough for the crap you have to go through to make it work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Proton View Post
    It's like you ignored my second link and second half of the post. BM didn't pass MM in Nighthold until 7.2. So it changes the guide to being right.

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    Wrong, he used the wrong patches and admitted to it. Stop bullshitting.
    I only looked at the link for the first one. either way we're right you're not.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...1&class=Hunter

    FFs the only fights that MM was ever ahead of in any significant way at all whatsoever was fucking Tichondrius, Skorpyon and Spellblade. Truth is that it looked like Marks was more ahead in general because more hunters were playing marks, fact of the matter is that BM scales better with gear and as more people started to get better gear as BM it was a pretty much 50/50 split to bm and mm for NH.

    Face facts, there are plenty of issues with marksmanship, and it's more pronounced depending on the fight.
    Last edited by Shakou; 2017-06-19 at 10:14 PM.

  3. #14443
    BM was already ahead of MM on odyn in ToV (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...958&dataset=80) and was equal to MM on Guarm (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...962&dataset=80) despite it being underrepresented. Yes BM was slightly more dependent on legendaries, but less so in ToV as in NH because the shoulders did not exist at that point. Also 45 % of the BM kills on guarm were done with Belt, the only really impactful legendary while 45 % of the MM players had at least boots or belt, if not both (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...fo=Legendaries | https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...fo=Legendaries)

    BM pushed further ahead in NH progression on:
    Anomaly: (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...0&class=Hunter)
    Trilliax: (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...0&class=Hunter)
    Krosus: (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...0&class=Hunter)
    Botanist: (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...0&class=Hunter)
    Augur: (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...0&class=Hunter)
    and Elisande: (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...0&class=Hunter)

    The reason MM is ahead if looking at Nighthold overall (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...0&class=Hunter) is mainly because it was ahead by a LARGE margin on Aluriel (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...nter&boss=1871) Tichondrius (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...nter&boss=1862) and Skorpymeme (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...nter&boss=1849).
    The overall rankings are obviously very skewed because of that, and looking at a complete raid tier instead of single encounters is generally not a good way to compare specs if you want to talk about viability.

    MM was slightly ahead on Guldan, although there were not even 80 Kills for MM and BM combined at the time 7.2 hit, so one might take this with a grain of salt. (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...nter&boss=1866)

    BM was still more legendary dependant, but on most of these parses only about 60 % had the belt for BM and under 50 % had the Shoulders (example augur: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...fo=Legendaries) while about 75 % of the MM parses were played with boots and 45 % with gloves on the example of Augur (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...fo=Legendaries) and BM was still ahead despite less people having the important legendaries.

    Considering all this and the fact that a lot of people were VERY invested into MM at the time Nighthold hit, talking about traits as well as legendaries, and still switched to BM (18K parses for both speccs so 50/50 representation in NH Mythic before 7.2 https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...0&class=Hunter while it was more like 80/20 in ToV and EN https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#class=Hunter | https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#class=Hunter) it is safe to say that BM was the better specc for many but not all encounters in nighthold from a DPS standpoint.

    Both specs had advantages during Progress, and @Dracodraco outlined many of these for MM.

    One of the biggest Advantages of BM in my opinion is the fact that you can always reposition yourself without losing DPS.
    Draco made some good points for MM in that regard:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Guldan - argueably, being able to give other people more space in P2 is extremely valueable as that's one of the three main reasons to bring as few ranged as possible (the other two being making the P1 check, as ranged are running a lot from hellfires, and Parasite damage in P3). MM did some of the best P1 damage out of ranged though.
    But while MM can stand further away to give your other ranged more space, you can react to the movement of your fellow ranges as BM (aka them getting fire) by giving them more space if needed without getting punished DPS wise - which kind of accomplishes the same. BM also got less punished in P1 by having to outrange the Boss and Bossdmg in p1 and in general was superior and so was dmg on the big eye in p2 because you could always have BW ready, even if you had to delay it a little.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Elisande - range of blue add to interrupt even when far away (especially crucial for recursion during rings in p2).
    You can accomplish pretty much the same as BM if you move out 2 seconds before you need to interrupt and move back immediately without costing you dps. Dodging the rings while doing that also is not really a problem. You also have your pet still hitting the boss if you happen to have to go out of range to soak some orbs. The Speedbuff also works very well with dire Frenzy by reducing its cooldown but not its duration which makes it very very easy to keep up 3 stacks.

    BM not being punished by movement also had the advantage on botanist when "babysitting" people with the Call of the Night debuff. You could not always plan your movement because - well you had to "babysit" someone and if that "baby" decided to randomly move some yards away you had to follow instantly. BM also did not lack behind on lasher dmg, although it was more annoying to switch - at least in my opinion (this is history now thanks to 40yard built in charges).

    BM hunters were also one of the most efficient specs when it came to Trilliax and soaking the scrubbers. Even if you needed to go out of range you still had DF KC and your pets meele attacks. You can run around soak like half of the scrubbers solo (at leastif they do not explode at the same time because some slackers would not eat cake) while doing decent DPS if still in range, and at least some DPS if out of range.

    I have to admit BM's ability to switch onto the adds on Krosus was terrible and felt even worse, although MM with True Aim was also not very efficient.

    Both spesc had their pros and cons on Augur, with BM pushing more DPS during Fel Phase which made it easier to pass the damage check for the third nova (i believe it was the third nova when they changed the boss after the first couple of kills with 2 healers) or now the second nova, while MM obviously shines in the last Phase because of the execute. Both specs were more than viable during progression, depending on where your raid comp needed the most help.

    Another important point is that prior to 7.2 the interaction between Dire Frenzy and Titans Thunder was buggy. You had to be in 10 yards range of your pet when pressing Titans Thunder to get the buff for the extra titans thunder attacks. The bug is displayed here and was fixed with 7.2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6uC...ature=youtu.be
    A lot of people were not aware of this bug or did not bother playing around it which did impact your DPS. The extra attacks from Titans Thunder typically made up about 3-5 % of your overall damage (it is a bit less now because our other abilities got buffed by the new traits), so you can imagine the loss even if you would only miss half of those attacks.

    So keeping in mind everything i just said, BM is and was more viable than a lot of people - including azor - are making/made it out to be. That does not mean BM is/was better than MM or vice versa. Both Specs were, are and (if nothing changes) will be very close. The "Best" decision if talking purely about DPS probably depends on your gear, your legendaries and - the most important thing - the nature of the fight you are progressing on as well as the raid composition you are progressing with.

    When progressing on a fight like guldan, does your raid comp need the additional AoE DPS MM provides on the small eyes as well as the parasites? No - BM is likely the better choice. Yes - MM is likely to be. Do you need to do a job where you might have to run around the room constantly soaking some shit? No - MM is likely the better choice. Yes? BM will likely be. Do you have waves of adds which almost perfectly line up with your Trueshot (looking at aluriel) or do you have constant waves of adds of which you NEED to focus down a priority Target while all the other adds are almost irrelevant. In the first case MM will be the clear winner while in the second case BM will probably win out due to more frequent Single Target burst windows. Ecetera.
    If the specs stay as close as they are - or as they were previously - most of it comes down to the type of boss you are facing and what job your raid needs you to do. Both specs have up- and downsides. If you have the gear and the AP to be able to play both, that is probably the way to go. If you don't - stick to what you have.

  4. #14444
    Deleted
    Holy fuck, we're back at this shit of which spec is better and which spec was better. Holy mother of god. Every couple of months this pops up again. I wish I could see the icon there are new posts and find theorycrafting or something new that was discovered to improve how to play.

    EJ, I miss you.

  5. #14445
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakou View Post
    But when MM is ahead you people tend to act like it's awesome, and it's not. It's a really horribly designed spec that is not rewarding enough for the crap you have to go through to make it work.
    For a man who insists people provide facts, you sure do give a lot of opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    I'm glad you brought up IQ, the last standardised IQ test I took I scored a 127, the threshold for 'Genius' is 140, and the threshold for 'Gifted Genius' is 165+, based on the fact the global average IQ is 84, and the fact you're likely Americanwhere the national IQ is BELOW the global average and falling consistently which has led to calls for global intervention in your abysmal education system, I feel you have VERY LITTLE room to talk about IQ levels, but thanks for trying.

  6. #14446
    It seems like it's time for my occasional warning to the subforum about being toxic posters. This isn't Discord, the culture of Trueshot isn't allowed here. If your criticism can't be constructive, don't post. Failure to do so, attacking other users, etc, will result in infractions going forward.

  7. #14447
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    People are questioning it, mainly in the form of "oh my god Azor is such a biased piece of shit scumbag tool that he states MM is the best progression based spec and hates all things BM!"
    You even admit to MM being ahead of BM, but then change it around to "well, it was only slightly ahead."
    MM was not ahead of BM at any point in Nighthold. MM had more people playing it as a result of the difficulty of switching specs due to AP and legendary systems, but it wasn't ahead of BM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuuda View Post
    Holy fuck, we're back at this shit of which spec is better and which spec was better. Holy mother of god. Every couple of months this pops up again. I wish I could see the icon there are new posts and find theorycrafting or something new that was discovered to improve how to play.

    EJ, I miss you.
    It pops up all the time because the guide this thread discusses is one of the worst offenders when it comes to promoting the schism between the specs.

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  8. #14448
    Quote Originally Posted by caph View Post
    But while MM can stand further away to give your other ranged more space, you can react to the movement of your fellow ranges as BM (aka them getting fire) by giving them more space if needed without getting punished DPS wise - which kind of accomplishes the same. BM also got less punished in P1 by having to outrange the Boss and Bossdmg in p1 and in general was superior and so was dmg on the big eye in p2 because you could always have BW ready, even if you had to delay it a little.

    MM does more burst damage to priority targets with Trueshot up than BM does, outside of having *every single cooldown* available. Aspect+TT+BW is required to match. , and I was capable of getting trueshot up for almost every eye spawn (obviously, not for the eye-in-storm followed by another eye ~10 seconds later; But I could use it on 1, 2 and 4 of that phase, or 1, 2, 3 [our warriors would leap out and singletarget-draught the storm eye, so everyone else saved cds for the second one]). In that respect, I don't think you can argue that BM's priority damage was better than MM's (and this goes for P1 as well; MM had little to no downtime when you played with the gloves, which was ideal for this fight, and with Trueshot being an undisputable AOE crackhouse and up for all the small eye waves, there's no way BM kept up in P1 on anything but pure boss damage (which was a joke outside of the push-before-fel-lord strat, which quite frankly wasn't a very good one untill the nerf).

    You also say BM got less punished by outranging the boss, but that's not really true when the point of MM is you *never got out of range*, because if you're stood at 50 yards, there's no way anyone else is near you due to their 40y ranges and splash damage being 8(?) yards.

    I can't dispute many of your other points as I quite simply haven't got the experience pre-7.2; I would still argue that Botanist was more ideal for MM than BM due to the belt legendary propelling MM to insane levels of damage, and trueshot being up every other lasher wave (allowing 2x MM hunters to rotate trueshots to annihilate lashers, freeing up everyone else), where as BM had the pet travel time (which as you say yourself, is largely fixed now).

    MM also couldn't do AOE dps to parasites unless in melee, by the way; Something you'd likely not want to be :P.

    As a last note:
    do you have constant waves of adds of which you NEED to focus down a priority Target while all the other adds are almost irrelevant. In the first case MM will be the clear winner while in the second case BM will probably win out due to more frequent Single Target burst windows. Ecetera.
    MM wins both on burst AOE and the scenario you describe there because of belt. Take Tichondrius as an example and weed out the blood damage; Focus regen from multishot becomes worth it at 3 targets (which means first wave of bloods), and every MS is +40-70% aimed damage, which makes MM's singletarget damage go ballistic, while being able to burst down the adds super well when they're dragged out as well. MM is the king of all AOE scenarios because the belt buffs long, drawn out cleave, and trueshot enables insane burst.

  9. #14449
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    MM does more burst damage to priority targets with Trueshot up than BM does, outside of having *every single cooldown* available. Aspect+TT+BW is required to match. , and I was capable of getting trueshot up for almost every eye spawn (obviously, not for the eye-in-storm followed by another eye ~10 seconds later; But I could use it on 1, 2 and 4 of that phase, or 1, 2, 3 [our warriors would leap out and singletarget-draught the storm eye, so everyone else saved cds for the second one]). In that respect, I don't think you can argue that BM's priority damage was better than MM's (and this goes for P1 as well; MM had little to no downtime when you played with the gloves, which was ideal for this fight, and with Trueshot being an undisputable AOE crackhouse and up for all the small eye waves, there's no way BM kept up in P1 on anything but pure boss damage (which was a joke outside of the push-before-fel-lord strat, which quite frankly wasn't a very good one untill the nerf).

    You also say BM got less punished by outranging the boss, but that's not really true when the point of MM is you *never got out of range*, because if you're stood at 50 yards, there's no way anyone else is near you due to their 40y ranges and splash damage being 8(?) yards.

    I can't dispute many of your other points as I quite simply haven't got the experience pre-7.2; I would still argue that Botanist was more ideal for MM than BM due to the belt legendary propelling MM to insane levels of damage, and trueshot being up every other lasher wave (allowing 2x MM hunters to rotate trueshots to annihilate lashers, freeing up everyone else), where as BM had the pet travel time (which as you say yourself, is largely fixed now).

    MM also couldn't do AOE dps to parasites unless in melee, by the way; Something you'd likely not want to be :P.

    As a last note:


    MM wins both on burst AOE and the scenario you describe there because of belt. Take Tichondrius as an example and weed out the blood damage; Focus regen from multishot becomes worth it at 3 targets (which means first wave of bloods), and every MS is +40-70% aimed damage, which makes MM's singletarget damage go ballistic, while being able to burst down the adds super well when they're dragged out as well. MM is the king of all AOE scenarios because the belt buffs long, drawn out cleave, and trueshot enables insane burst.
    Point to you. I overlooked the fact that the Belt is insanely useful in those situations because i still do not have it myself, although that is by no means an excuse. Sorry i was definitely wrong in that regard.

    BM cannot DPS the parasites unless you yourself are in range of those things too, and i only mentioned it because you "could" disengage or run to them after they spawn if you are not stunned and keep an eye on the timer of the next Chaos Seed. I mostly didn't and don't do it i just thought that is something you could do - especially as MM if your raid has problems on parasites.

    Big Eye and Lasher damage is something i am not sure of myself. I played BM during progress on both of those encounters and i was able to rotate cooldowns on the big eyes. I had BW for literally every Eye, as well as Crows because the cooldown reset and i just would not use crows on the Boss. You then could rotate TT and Aspect on every other Eye if playing with CoF or bracers - or if not playing with one of those items have aspect ready for the double Spawn which was arguably the most important one. You didn't need "everything" to top damage on the eyes, BW and Crows were ready safely and rotating the other 2 was more than enough.
    I personally was able to beat out or at least be even with our two fury warriors (although they did not single-draught an eye to be fair)during progress - which happened primarily before 7.2 considering we got the kill 2 days after the patch hit. But that is definitely anecdotal. I am pretty sure MM does not provide similar burst damage on a single big add such as the big eye while not blowing your only Cooldown on it which leaves nothing for the boss but again i might be wrong.

    As for the lashers - if you actually bother to switch to the adds as BM - i think many players tried to convince their raidleaders to practically see them as meele so they would not need to switch on such encounters - those 2 speccs are probably very close of each other.

    I guess you also got me by the outrange issue in phase 1 - but BM was able to provide a good amount of damage on both the big adds and the big eye which spawned while the Fel Lord was still up. But i would agree that MM was better in P1 in general.

    To be honest i would have probably played way more MM during progress if i had either belt or gloves, but i didn't and i felt like i performed better without any BM legendaries than sticking to MM where i only had the boots. It seems like the gloves are what makes MM good on fights like augur and guldan - almost similar to BM regarding movement and the Belt propels your AoE capability and pushes you ahead on something like Tich and Botanist.

    It was always said BM is more dependant on legendaries, which is true in sims but the belt and the gloves for MM are VERY powerful in real world and/or non patchwerk scenarios. And there were also only 2 impactful legendaries for BM - the shoulders which are history - and the belt which arguably got less impactful after the new cobra shot reduction traits hit. I would argue that right now BM is less dependant on Legendaries seeing as sims of legendaries are very close and it pretty much comes down to your possible non-legendary items for this slot. There are also not really many situational uses for BM legendaries. Pretty much every effect is passive and does not favor AoE or ST or whatever - unlike MM belt and gloves which seem vital for aoe or high movement.

  10. #14450
    Deleted
    Is it me or my sims show that convergence + medallion is the best choice? Maybe something is wrong. it shows:
    convergence(905)+BTI(880+socket)-936,531dps, medallion(910)+engine(910)-947,646, Medallion(910)-BTI(880+socket)-950,005, convergence(905)+Medallion(910)-961,895. Am i missing something? it was done with current set(almost all pieces bis) and Boots+gloves legendary setup.
    https://www.raidbots.com/reports/SkneRuI7b/index.html
    Last edited by mmoc7fbaabdd27; 2017-06-20 at 11:02 AM.

  11. #14451
    Quote Originally Posted by caph View Post
    Point to you. I overlooked the fact that the Belt is insanely useful in those situations because i still do not have it myself, although that is by no means an excuse. Sorry i was definitely wrong in that regard.

    BM cannot DPS the parasites unless you yourself are in range of those things too, and i only mentioned it because you "could" disengage or run to them after they spawn if you are not stunned and keep an eye on the timer of the next Chaos Seed. I mostly didn't and don't do it i just thought that is something you could do - especially as MM if your raid has problems on parasites.
    Yea, it's doable, and I've done it in a pinch. I'd say BM probably beats MM in P3 due to the fact that BM can have BW up for every demon (high-priority damage target), while trueshot is only available for "some" of them (and even then, if you use trueshot before the 3x orb blow, which you reasonably should have been doing during progress because that's the hardest part of P3, it'd not be up for the 30sec expose - BM can get BW back up for it).


    Big Eye and Lasher damage is something i am not sure of myself. I played BM during progress on both of those encounters and i was able to rotate cooldowns on the big eyes. I had BW for literally every Eye, as well as Crows because the cooldown reset and i just would not use crows on the Boss. You then could rotate TT and Aspect on every other Eye if playing with CoF or bracers - or if not playing with one of those items have aspect ready for the double Spawn which was arguably the most important one. You didn't need "everything" to top damage on the eyes, BW and Crows were ready safely and rotating the other 2 was more than enough.
    I personally was able to beat out or at least be even with our two fury warriors (although they did not single-draught an eye to be fair)during progress - which happened primarily before 7.2 considering we got the kill 2 days after the patch hit. But that is definitely anecdotal. I am pretty sure MM does not provide similar burst damage on a single big add such as the big eye while not blowing your only Cooldown on it which leaves nothing for the boss but again i might be wrong.
    Lasher damage is perfectly fine for BM, don't get me wrong. But there's no way BM would pretty much solo a wave of lashers inside their stun which MM pretty much can (4x marked shots reasonably). That's nitpicky, though. As for the eye, I never played with crows because there's a lot of cleave going on, but I can see how that boosts the damage. Looking at your progress logs, you do push out more damage on them than I do, but my raid in general annihilates them much harder than yours as well (mind that we killed it almost two weeks later, which ment traits etc had started to come into play), when comparing the night-before-kill logs between the two of us. I'll concede BM might beat MM there, but I'm doubtful. You guys however killed it the "long and drawn out"-way which we never even bothered attempting (we knew by the time we'd get to the end of P2, patch would hit, and we'd be easily able to phase before the eye+storm combo), where BM would have been godly for the eye that happens during the storm cast.



    As for the lashers - if you actually bother to switch to the adds as BM - i think many players tried to convince their raidleaders to practically see them as meele so they would not need to switch on such encounters - those 2 speccs are probably very close of each other.

    Oh, I know. My raiders are retards. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/K6z8YjwP4yxkTLbV#fight=61&type=damage-done&target=245



    I guess you also got me by the outrange issue in phase 1 - but BM was able to provide a good amount of damage on both the big adds and the big eye which spawned while the Fel Lord was still up. But i would agree that MM was better in P1 in general.
    Aye, but then, trick shot+marked shot always was better cleave than Beastcleave (being virtually free damage on 2 out of 3 targets as focus gain from multishot outweights arcane shot, so changing your rotation has little to no impact on main target).

    To be honest i would have probably played way more MM during progress if i had either belt or gloves, but i didn't and i felt like i performed better without any BM legendaries than sticking to MM where i only had the boots. It seems like the gloves are what makes MM good on fights like augur and guldan - almost similar to BM regarding movement and the Belt propels your AoE capability and pushes you ahead on something like Tich and Botanist.


    It was always said BM is more dependant on legendaries, which is true in sims but the belt and the gloves for MM are VERY powerful in real world and/or non patchwerk scenarios. And there were also only 2 impactful legendaries for BM - the shoulders which are history - and the belt which arguably got less impactful after the new cobra shot reduction traits hit. I would argue that right now BM is less dependant on Legendaries seeing as sims of legendaries are very close and it pretty much comes down to your possible non-legendary items for this slot. There are also not really many situational uses for BM legendaries. Pretty much every effect is passive and does not favor AoE or ST or whatever - unlike MM belt and gloves which seem vital for aoe or high movement.
    I never really figured why people thought MM was less dependant on legendaries. If it's a sim thing, fair enough - but not having gotten the boots untill a few weeks into NH while my co-hunter got them as his third legendary back in EN, it was quite evident how big of a gap there was between us because of those alone, especially on a fight like say, Cenarius, where he could reasonably smash two waves of wisps with trueshot, while I could only do a single - or Helya, where he'd have trueshot up for #1 and #4 slime, while I could only do a single (thus opting to save my trueshot for #2, with our alt-hunter doing #3, enabling us to absolutely annihilate the slimes by cycling trueshots; Something we couldn't have done without his boots).

    The belt was my last MM legendary (second-to-last total for the spec; Prydaz was the only one missing), and I got the belt deep into NH (post-elisande, at the very least), and the difference it makes on a fight like Augur and Tich is also amazing to watch. I remember sitting a night after farm comparing myself and the other hunter (who, of course, got the belt and gloves super early just like the boots, while I just had boots/gloves) on tich, and comming to the realisation that I hadn't actually played worse than the other hunter; We had almost identical amounts of aimed shots, reasonably close crit percentages, etc, but he was still *400K* ahead of me (something like 1.3M vs 900K dps). Then it hit me; His damage on bloods was super high, and he had like 70% aimed shot damage. The belt alone was making it so that he was basically firing off double the amount of aimed shots (that all cleave onto the blobs due to trick shot, of course) that I was.


    Suffice to say, with shoulders no longer being mandatory (heck, they're going to not be used at all for people with decent T19 pieces in favor of 2pc+4pc), BM is the least legendary dependant dps spec of every class that I know of, *maybe* barring shadow priests (that's not because all their legendaries are good though, quite the opposite. They all suck so bad that their best ones are basicly 4.5% haste when entering voidform shoulders, and 2% haste at all times sephuz). It really doesn't matter which ones you have as BM come tomb, you'll do well. Heck, we've even gotten to a point where you can either have a heavy haste-reliant spec (Dire Frenzy) or heavy crit reliant (Stomp), and do almost the same damage, with stomp edging above in AOE/cleave and DF in single target. As long as your item has mastery, you're fucking good to go. That's beautiful.

    TL;DR - both BM and MM were good for NH, and both had their strengths at various tasks. I might disagree on which is the better priority singletarget, but outside of that, the fact that we can sit here discussing this shows how good of a spot the specs are actually in; Both are viable for progress, and fuck, they're actually outright "good". They share large amounts of gear, and one of them requires next to no specific legendary setup, so you can set your lootspec to MM and harvest the required ones with no real downside. We'll actually get to see a tier in Tomb where experienced hunters WILL be switching specs dependant on the encounter because AP farm is less of an issue (getting two specs to 58 = same effort as 1x spec to 60, and most people won't be going much further than 60 for mythic progress). It's actually quite nice.

  12. #14452
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I never really figured why people thought MM was less dependant on legendaries. If it's a sim thing, fair enough - but not having gotten the boots untill a few weeks into NH while my co-hunter got them as his third legendary back in EN, it was quite evident how big of a gap there was between us because of those alone, especially on a fight like say, Cenarius, where he could reasonably smash two waves of wisps with trueshot, while I could only do a single - or Helya, where he'd have trueshot up for #1 and #4 slime, while I could only do a single (thus opting to save my trueshot for #2, with our alt-hunter doing #3, enabling us to absolutely annihilate the slimes by cycling trueshots; Something we couldn't have done without his boots).

    The belt was my last MM legendary (second-to-last total for the spec; Prydaz was the only one missing), and I got the belt deep into NH (post-elisande, at the very least), and the difference it makes on a fight like Augur and Tich is also amazing to watch. I remember sitting a night after farm comparing myself and the other hunter (who, of course, got the belt and gloves super early just like the boots, while I just had boots/gloves) on tich, and comming to the realisation that I hadn't actually played worse than the other hunter; We had almost identical amounts of aimed shots, reasonably close crit percentages, etc, but he was still *400K* ahead of me (something like 1.3M vs 900K dps). Then it hit me; His damage on bloods was super high, and he had like 70% aimed shot damage. The belt alone was making it so that he was basically firing off double the amount of aimed shots (that all cleave onto the blobs due to trick shot, of course) that I was.


    Suffice to say, with shoulders no longer being mandatory (heck, they're going to not be used at all for people with decent T19 pieces in favor of 2pc+4pc), BM is the least legendary dependant dps spec of every class that I know of, *maybe* barring shadow priests (that's not because all their legendaries are good though, quite the opposite. They all suck so bad that their best ones are basicly 4.5% haste when entering voidform shoulders, and 2% haste at all times sephuz). It really doesn't matter which ones you have as BM come tomb, you'll do well. Heck, we've even gotten to a point where you can either have a heavy haste-reliant spec (Dire Frenzy) or heavy crit reliant (Stomp), and do almost the same damage, with stomp edging above in AOE/cleave and DF in single target. As long as your item has mastery, you're fucking good to go. That's beautiful.

    TL;DR - both BM and MM were good for NH, and both had their strengths at various tasks. I might disagree on which is the better priority singletarget, but outside of that, the fact that we can sit here discussing this shows how good of a spot the specs are actually in; Both are viable for progress, and fuck, they're actually outright "good". They share large amounts of gear, and one of them requires next to no specific legendary setup, so you can set your lootspec to MM and harvest the required ones with no real downside. We'll actually get to see a tier in Tomb where experienced hunters WILL be switching specs dependant on the encounter because AP farm is less of an issue (getting two specs to 58 = same effort as 1x spec to 60, and most people won't be going much further than 60 for mythic progress). It's actually quite nice.
    I can't find any room for disagreement here and thank you for your insightful and thorough input here. My issue with MM as far as this thread is concerned, is not really because I just don't like the spec. I like the spec plenty, what I dislike is the general hype and trollishness I've come across here and the way that Azor's guide is presented.

    Personally I did not swap to BM until late into NH, I had absolute terrible luck with legendaries, literally got all of the worst ones first. The only leggos I got that are even specific to MM are the hunters mark ring and bracers, so I made the swap to BM and sure enough I started getting only the best legendaries for that and it was clearly a monumental DPS difference.

    But MM can be incredibly strong, but I have not seen any evidence that this is generally true unless you have the best gear available to you, it's strengths don't really shine until you have the best leggos available.

  13. #14453
    Keep in mind that in terms of pure power, MM looks like it'll be strongest in tomb by a fair margin; The huntmaster ring is INCREDIBLY strong for single target, and with the UA talent being buffed back to the glory of release (relatively speaking, anyway; It used to be 10% per trait, with vuln at 100%, and was then nerfed to 4%. Now that Vuln has been nerfed to 30%, and UA only to 3%, it means that the trait is worth the exact same as when it was released, AKA OP), and two VERY easy to reach UA traits in tomb, I can't see BM pulling ahead outside of heavy movement (relics drop from KJ, and first boss; KJ drops 925 items on heroic so a relic from him is a godsend, especially for split runs, as you'll get 6-7 items in a split heroic, versus only 4x on a mythic boss that drops 930. And of course, first boss is first boss; It'll be the first to die, so instant access to the other mythic level relic).

  14. #14454
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakou View Post
    No I don't. It's not. When it has been It's so marginal it does not even matter. Really. It's not even a 5% dps difference you're out of your mind and no MM is not ahead right now right no no one has done TOS bosses in TOS gear on live and has logs.

    But when MM is ahead you people tend to act like it's awesome, and it's not. It's a really horribly designed spec that is not rewarding enough for the crap you have to go through to make it work.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I only looked at the link for the first one. either way we're right you're not.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...1&class=Hunter

    FFs the only fights that MM was ever ahead of in any significant way at all whatsoever was fucking Tichondrius, Skorpyon and Spellblade. Truth is that it looked like Marks was more ahead in general because more hunters were playing marks, fact of the matter is that BM scales better with gear and as more people started to get better gear as BM it was a pretty much 50/50 split to bm and mm for NH.

    Face facts, there are plenty of issues with marksmanship, and it's more pronounced depending on the fight.
    Lol what. Did you even read your link? Its top parses for the bosses. And on those bosses theres more MM parses than BM parses except for 1 boss. Try again, you're still wrong. I'm also pretty sure you don't even know what would make one right or wrong in the context of the argument, like a child jumping in the middle of a conversation.

  15. #14455
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Proton View Post
    Lol what. Did you even read your link? Its top parses for the bosses. And on those bosses theres more MM parses than BM parses except for 1 boss. Try again, you're still wrong. I'm also pretty sure you don't even know what would make one right or wrong in the context of the argument, like a child jumping in the middle of a conversation.
    Did you try learning basic math? Because more MM parses than BM parses does not mean one spec is further ahead than the other that just means more people played the spec, what matters is the median and the link I put up shows is that on average there was no major significant difference between the two specs and that MM only edged out BM on AOE fights in Nighthold in 7.1.5.

    Stop it. You're not right and you're never going to be right about this. I'm certainly you don't know how to count past 10 if you disagree with me. It's that simple. This isn't about your stupid ego and your little tiny pathetic e peen it's about math and you aren't good at it.
    Last edited by Shakou; 2017-06-20 at 11:21 PM.

  16. #14456
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakou View Post
    Did you try learning basic math? Because more MM parses than BM parses does not mean one spec is further ahead than the other that just means more people played the spec. What the link I put up shows is that on average there was no significant difference between the two specs and that MM only edged out BM on AOE fights in Nighthold in 7.1.5.

    Stop it. You're not right and you're never going to be right about this. I'm certainly you don't know how to count past 10 if you disagree with me. It's that simple.
    What? Mine was an aggregate of parses over time(number of parses doesn't even matter). Yours was literally 10 plot points. The top 10 parses IS NOT the median. You didn't show the average of anything, you showed the very extreme and top end. You should learn basic math and to count past 10, because I clearly can while you can't. Stay certainly, friend.
    Last edited by Captain Proton; 2017-06-20 at 11:27 PM.

  17. #14457
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Proton View Post
    What? Mine was an aggregate of parses over time. Yours was literally 10 plot points. You should learn basic math.
    You're retarded. My link is simply all bosses, all hunters. I didn't say all the important data backing me up was on that one page, not my fault you can't think beyond your nose and don't bother to look at the fucking data beyond page 1, you blimey moron. Literally all of the god damn data is there. That's the point. The data does not support what you're saying. But it's all there and that's why the link was given. The average from top parses on NH in 7.1.5 was basically split 50/50 BM/MM and MM was only ahead on the fights I mentioned. What the fuck are you even arguing about? No MM never had any significant DPS advantage over BM in Nighthold, and when it came to single target damage it didn't at all.
    Last edited by Shakou; 2017-06-20 at 11:30 PM.

  18. #14458
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakou View Post
    You're retarded. The average from top parses on NH in 7.1.5 was literally split 50/50 BM/MM. GO away.
    No, they literally werent as it also contained survival. Unless you're saying survival had 0 parses. You don't even know fucking English bro.

    Again, taking the top 10 isn't the average.

    Skorp: 10 MM
    Anom: 4BM, 1 Surv, 5 MM
    Triliax: 3BM, 3 Surv, 4 MM
    Spellblade: 10 MM
    Tich: 10 MM
    Augur: 4BM, 1 Surv, 4 MM
    Krosus: 3BM, 5 Surv, 2 MM
    Bot: 4BM, 2 Surv, 4 MM
    Elisande: 3BM, 7MM
    Guldan: 1BM, 5 Survival, 4MM

    50/50 SPLIT LOL. Not even close.
    Last edited by Captain Proton; 2017-06-20 at 11:34 PM.

  19. #14459
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Proton View Post
    No, they literally werent as it also contained survival. Unless you're saying survival had 0 parses. You don't even know fucking English bro.

    Again, taking the top 10 isn't the average.
    I get that you're not good at math and lack basic sense of anything, but we're talking about MM and BM here. Just because there are survival parses on my link doesn't change what I said. It just means you can't count, let alone do basic elementary school math like figure out the average median between 2 sets of numbers.

    Literally all of the data on 7.1.5 hunters is on my link. That's the point. Not my fault you don't know how to interpret that, but anyone skimming through those logs will not find MM pulling significantly ahead on anything but Tich, Spellblade, and Skorp. That's the point.

    It literally doesn't matter if you agree or not, I don't know where you got the impression I care what you think but I don't you can stop responding now you're on my ignore list anyways.
    Last edited by Shakou; 2017-06-20 at 11:37 PM.

  20. #14460
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakou View Post
    I get that you're not good at math, but we're talking about MM and BM here. Just because there are survival parses on my link doesn't change what I said. It just means you can't count, let alone do basic elementary school math like figure out the average median between 2 sets of numbers.

    Literally all of the data is on my link. That's the point. Not my fault you don't know how to interpret that.
    Skorp: 10 MM
    Anom: 4BM, 1 Surv, 5 MM
    Triliax: 3BM, 3 Surv, 4 MM
    Spellblade: 10 MM
    Tich: 10 MM
    Augur: 4BM, 1 Surv, 4 MM
    Krosus: 3BM, 5 Surv, 2 MM
    Bot: 4BM, 2 Surv, 4 MM
    Elisande: 3BM, 7MM
    Guldan: 1BM, 5 Survival, 4MM

    50/50 SPLIT LOL. Not even close.

    You don't even know what the fuck you post. But yeah, keep insulting my intelligence. It's pretty hilarious.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shakou View Post
    You're retarded. My link is simply all bosses, all hunters. I didn't say all the important data backing me up was on that one page, not my fault you can't think beyond your nose and don't bother to look at the fucking data beyond page 1, you blimey moron. Literally all of the god damn data is there. That's the point. The data does not support what you're saying. But it's all there and that's why the link was given. The average from top parses on NH in 7.1.5 was basically split 50/50 BM/MM and MM was only ahead on the fights I mentioned. What the fuck are you even arguing about? No MM never had any significant DPS advantage over BM in Nighthold, and when it came to single target damage it didn't at all.
    Your data, again, is the average of 10 plot points.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...n=1&dataset=90

    That's what you're looking for. Notice how the average of all the parses at the 90th percentile, MM is higher than BM? That's the shit you should be looking for.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...0&class=Hunter

    Here it is on a timeline for your dumbass.

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