1. #8121
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Rugtoad View Post
    Pot and kettle shit right there. Seriously, ladies, you're both pretty, stop fighting.


    Effin, I'm a little confused. You've gone from "Hey you can do this cool thing where you mimic boss encounters" to "nah you shouldn't do that it's a waste of time". Is your point simply that it can be done, regardless of whether or not it should? And if it shouldn't be done, why bother with the first question to begin with?
    The point is not being able to do it. I assumed that an impossibility to start with, but Effin claimed that he frequently sims those fights and so I inquired for his code for that. He didn't provide it. The argument has sort of shifted away from whether he is able to do it (I am not convinced that it'd be any good) to my main point; you cannot take a simulator like SimCraft and use it for -everything- with no regard or thought paid to the real world.

  2. #8122
    Quote Originally Posted by Yooi View Post
    Patchwerk sims on multi-targets is just not useful for add phases.

    You can hardly sim "segments". How are you gonna sim the Stone Pillars on Kromog? Or the Grasping Earths on Kromog? Or even a split phase on Thogar? Or Cinder Wolves on Flamebender? They're all important things to these fights from a progression standpoint and doing sims on those for everyone is, as you say, simply not feasible. I'd argue that even doing those for yourself is a near-impossibility.

    It is not even about finding out what is "best" for those phases either, or simming different possibilities. It is simply a matter of Patchwerk sims NOT being able to take encounter-specific behaviour into account and why your sims-or-nothing approach, in my opinion, is fundamentally flawed.
    Well, what I try to do when simming this kind of thing (and I understand it's not perfect) is to adjust the APL in the sim to take into account the timeframe and what buffs are going to be up. For instance, if I wanted to try to sim the stone pillars (and I have not done this on Mythic, only researched it), I would probably adjust the APL to not have Stampede available (I assume I do not have this buff). I may also remove BW to assume I don't have that available and have just used it during the Grasps, for instance. If there are specific things I'm wanting to try, I would then adjust the APL to do that. Also, if you need buffs to not be present--such as Bloodlust, which tends to be used at the front if you do optimal_raid=1, then you'll need to disable that in Simcraft.

    As I said, I rarely do full sims with the raid events options. I setup individual sims for particular phases. Unfortunately, I tend to save them to the same place in my simcraft\profiles\tests directory on my PC, often in the same file because I did not assume that their absence on my laptop would constitute a major win for some guy on the internet.

  3. #8123
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    How is it possible that you don't realize how sarcastic and condescending you have been throughout this thread? You've not only insulted my guide. You've also insinuated that I'm intentionally misleading the hunter community because I did not provide everyone with customized boss encounter simulation scripts for every fight in Blackrock Foundry.

    @Gunba

    I'll admit that I am unaware of anything location based in Simcraft. So, I guess that's correct. However, if you're looking for sims of certain boss encounters where location is important, e.g., for beast cleave radius and adds that go in and out of it perhaps, you should be able to simulate something specific based on your guild's strategy. If you have a specific example that you're curious about, let me know.

    @Chippen

    I've mentioned that if you really want to simulate a specific encounter (the first option), you should be able to do that. I've also said that I tend to just break apart fights into the phases that I'm interested in--mostly because it's easier to setup and I am not interested in a full fight sim.

    I'm also on my laptop at work and not at home where I do the majority of my sims, so I'll need to create a sim on the fly--which is what I'm offering to do.
    I am not insulting your guide, or saying that you're misleading anyone. Keeping information excluded perhaps that would be useful, but either you have not actually simmed those fights in depth or you just truly do not believe in it. The latter would be baffling.

    Don't take things so personally.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    Well, what I try to do when simming this kind of thing (and I understand it's not perfect) is to adjust the APL in the sim to take into account the timeframe and what buffs are going to be up. For instance, if I wanted to try to sim the stone pillars (and I have not done this on Mythic, only researched it), I would probably adjust the APL to not have Stampede available (I assume I do not have this buff). I may also remove BW to assume I don't have that available and have just used it during the Grasps, for instance. If there are specific things I'm wanting to try, I would then adjust the APL to do that. Also, if you need buffs to not be present--such as Bloodlust, which tends to be used at the front if you do optimal_raid=1, then you'll need to disable that in Simcraft.

    As I said, I rarely do full sims with the raid events options. I setup individual sims for particular phases. Unfortunately, I tend to save them to the same place in my simcraft\profiles\tests directory on my PC, often in the same file because I did not assume that their absence on my laptop would constitute a major win for some guy on the internet.
    But do you truly believe that this methodology is superior to just researching the fight and using the knowledge that you can gather from that to make (fairly simple) 'guesswork' (as a scientist would call it) as to what stats would be better?

    I mean, guesswork, sure, but it is not rocket science to figure out that a fight like Kromog and its Stone Pillars will prefer Mastery (more relevant if Mastery wasn't the best stat period) because you will be saving not only Focus Fire, but also Bestial Wrath for this. The value of Haste diminishes because you can't do much with the generated Frenzy stacks, but Mastery is inflated because Bestial Wrath is popped.

    Stuff like that. It's just an example, it applies to like every fight in different situations they present. Stats are perhaps a bad example, but trinkets, a pretty integral part in controlled nukes, are a very good example of how sims just.. Can't do a fight.

  4. #8124
    Deleted
    Yooi is nominated for top contributor of the thread!!

  5. #8125
    Quote Originally Posted by Yooi View Post
    I am not insulting your guide, or saying that you're misleading anyone. Keeping information excluded perhaps that would be useful, but either you have not actually simmed those fights in depth or you just truly do not believe in it. The latter would be baffling.

    Don't take things so personally.
    You're actually explicitly doing both, but it's not like you're actually hurting my feelings or something. It's just a discussion on the internet, man, and we're literally talking in a thread that the OP specifically states stuff like "ElitistJerks: Not worth looking at as this guide bases itself purely on very “artificially” run sims in a very, very static environment." If my skin were as thin as what you are insinuating, I couldn't possibly be here. The internet would simply be too mean .

    If you want something specific, simulated in the way I've laid out (especially in segments), let me know. If it really is something that might be interesting to others, I could try to find a way to incorporate it into the regular sims (I mean, I haven't even had the chance to run all the MM and SV sims for 6.1, so I'm a bit behind, but I could try). Another option would be to provide segmented boss fight scripts for Simcraft Explorer that potentially use someone's provided armory in a set way. That might be pretty cool. It would be limited, but I would think it could give a good idea for the type of add phased encounters we're talking about.

  6. #8126
    Deleted
    I am not sure if you are deliberately neglecting answering my genuine question about methodologies, am writing or response or just haven't gotten around to that yet.

    The discussion is much needed, because it is the main difference between you and Azor besides you hating each others' guts. Like in The Prestige.

  7. #8127
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Termi View Post
    What 2 Trinkets would I go with for BM, when I have:
    HC - Meaty Dragonspine Trophy
    HC - Beating Heart
    M WF + gem - Trigger

    ?
    I think every answer I saw advised using Trigger+MDT, presumably because of the trinket sims. Trigger is set for sure in your case with such an ilvl discrepancy, but BHotM is already very close to MDT in sims and a lot more consistent. It'll be better on the majority of actual boss encounters because it gives you more control over your burst.
    So unless you don't trust yourself to use your trinket appropriatly, BHotM will do a much better job than MDT for you for most bosses.

  8. #8128
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by valtari View Post
    I think every answer I saw advised using Trigger+MDT, presumably because of the trinket sims. Trigger is set for sure in your case with such an ilvl discrepancy, but BHotM is already very close to MDT in sims and a lot more consistent. It'll be better on the majority of actual boss encounters because it gives you more control over your burst.
    So unless you don't trust yourself to use your trinket appropriatly, BHotM will do a much better job than MDT for you for most bosses.
    Sims should always be taken with a grain of salt, even if it's a reputable source. Besides, Azor does list another trinket combo than the top ones in the guide.

    I do think Trigger vs Dragonspine is worth looking at again. The Dragonspine proc is big dick, but the passive agi on the Trigger is ridiculous.

  9. #8129
    Quote Originally Posted by Yooi View Post
    I am not sure if you are deliberately neglecting answering my genuine question about methodologies, am writing or response or just haven't gotten around to that yet.

    The discussion is much needed, because it is the main difference between you and Azor besides you hating each others' guts. Like in The Prestige.
    You've edited your posts a lot. In fact, I just noticed that you added a significant edit after I had posted my last post. Is that what you are wanting me to answer? Whether or not I think advice should be based on intuition or sims?

    I do not hate Azor's guts, and I'm not sure Azor hates me either. He might, but that doesn't really concern me. I think he just wants his guide to be the only guide that matters, and, as far as I'm concerned, people are more than welcome to think that way.

    As I've mentioned before, I approach guide authoring as a complementary approach where we all try to look at huntering from a different angle and post our views. And I think it's important to note, I have agreed that a sim showing a 30-100 dps difference does NOT mean that the lower simming item or an priority listing is useless. What I try to do is help quantify the differences. Nothing more. Nothing less. People are free to come up with their own opinions on whether or not something that sims best is worth trying. And if you have an insight into a boss fight that helps you understand that an item or APL change can help increase dps, then that kind of intuition is invaluable.

    In my opinion, sims are best used as a guide for what to try in game. They are not a definitive answer--only an attempt at providing an answer.

  10. #8130
    Deleted
    I was basing the assumption that you hate Azor based on your accusations and the like of him.

    You've mentioned that you believe that he deliberately puts misinformation in the guide in order to achieve DPS parses. If you truly believe that, wouldn't it make sense for you to have a genuine interest (instead of apathy) at people thinking his guide superior or even just good?

    If your "priority", so to speak, is the best of the hunter community, wouldn't it be in your best interest (and the community's best interest, I guess) to try and steer others away from his guide? It'd probably make you look like an asshole, which is a deterrent. I just don't know, it seems inconsistent.

    Back to sims, though.

    Would you say that, as an overarching and general statement, your guide is not as much of a guide as it is a multitude of sims attempting to quantify the differences between various options (not to completely piss on your actual guide, but when you link to EJ, 99% of the time it's to sims you've made there and not the guide itself, which seems to have taken a subordinary role to the simming stuff), because that is what I gather from your own description of your own thread.

    What you describe as being invaluable is exactly what Azor does in a lot of cases and with a lot of things, but you seem to disagree with him, still? What's wrong, then, is all?

  11. #8131
    Deleted
    Yooi, stop complaining and provide something your self mate.

  12. #8132
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    Yooi, stop complaining and provide something your self mate.
    I am not complaining, I am asking.

    You trying to turn this into a pissing match contest is dumb.

  13. #8133
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Yooi View Post
    Sims should always be taken with a grain of salt, even if it's a reputable source. Besides, Azor does list another trinket combo than the top ones in the guide.

    I do think Trigger vs Dragonspine is worth looking at again. The Dragonspine proc is big dick, but the passive agi on the Trigger is ridiculous.
    Yeah, given equal ilvl, I don't see how Trigger wouldn't be easily ahead of MDT on single targets.


    Also, since Effin appears to be rather active in this thread at the moment and is among the most proficient/active simcraft users: did you have a look at my posts regarding pet basic attacks (somewhere on p. 400 and especially p. 403)? Do you think this should be accounted for in the simulations in any way? Or has this already been covered at some point (maybe even back during MoP)? Maybe there's some basic flaws in my assumption or observations, but I don't see how a player in the actual game is supposed to get as many Frenzy stacks as the sims do (with average RNG).
    Last edited by mmoc7a92d682ef; 2015-03-02 at 11:03 PM.

  14. #8134
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by valtari View Post
    snip because long
    I am not entirely sure what you are trying to get at, here. No fault of your explanation, I just don't get it.

    http://downloads.simulationcraft.org...ith%204pc.html - the average interval of Claws are 2.76s

    Just taking a rank 1 BM log, https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...uras&source=13

    He got 118 Claws within his killtime, this averages out to about 2.86s interval on average. The sim achieves 2.76.

    He has no Haste trink while the sim does.

    His average pet swingtimer was 0.827, the pet in the sim is 1.13s. This is more curious, if anything, especially since he had no more Focus Fire uptime nor Frenzy uptime than the sim by any significant amount. He does not have a Stampede glyph, so the pet should be alone, although I must admit I do not know if a copy of the source pet is spawned within the Stampede.

    Although, overall, it does not seem like there are any inconsistencies of Basic Attacks in sims and IRL. That's just looking at the one log, naturally.

  15. #8135
    High Overlord Enforcer's Avatar
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    So for multi target Azor's guide says blink strikes > stampede for >2. When I use blink strikes it seems like my DPS goes down a lot without that initial burst with stampede. Is everyone using blink strikes for >2 targets?

  16. #8136
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Yooi View Post
    [...]
    Although, overall, it does not seem like there are any inconsistencies of Basic Attacks in sims and IRL. That's just looking at the one log, naturally.
    Check out http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Guide/page403 (last post on page) as well in that case. The log you linked is one I looked at as well, but among the top 15 parses at the time, that one is the only one that got anywhere close to getting the same Claw intervals as the sims. Meaning it probably just had insane luck with EBA?

    Quick addition regarding Trigger: both Azor's and Effin's sims already have it slightly ahead of MDT on single targets, only makes sense. If I had to choose between either (for the whole instance), I think I'd prefer Trigger. And definitely BHotM, having that one on use trinket over 2 rppm ones is just so valuable on most actual fights.
    Last edited by mmoc7a92d682ef; 2015-03-02 at 11:24 PM.

  17. #8137
    Quote Originally Posted by Enforcer View Post
    So for multi target Azor's guide says blink strikes > stampede for >2. When I use blink strikes it seems like my DPS goes down a lot without that initial burst with stampede. Is everyone using blink strikes for >2 targets?
    I've just ended up using Stampede since I find it useful to have that single target damage.

    I'm not too sold on blink strikes on oregorger either, as the pet teleport part of it has a cooldown, I think it was like 20 seconds? So it doesn't help all that much in rolling phase.

  18. #8138
    No BS for Beastlord Darmac?
    I'd almost expect the usage of BS because of the spears and adds, but I guess it depends on the groups strengths.

  19. #8139
    Quote Originally Posted by eske View Post
    No BS for Beastlord Darmac?
    I'd almost expect the usage of BS because of the spears and adds, but I guess it depends on the groups strengths.
    Even on Mythic the pack beasts are a non-issue. (Unless literally no one is touching them for some reason) Spears, if you raid isn't completely ignoring them, rarely exceed 2 target cleave(where blink strikes is still inferior to Stampede) Combine that with the length of Darmac on mythic(10+ minutes) makes stampede the victor by a mile. The last phase is by far the hardest and most dps/healing intensive. Being able to use the 3rd stampede at the end is a gigantic help.
    Finbez
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological
    if only WoW had come out when I was a teenager. Back then online gaming consisted of text-based MUDs....I could type "kill orc" faster than any of my competition, brosephs, and played a mean giantman cleric.

  20. #8140
    Quote Originally Posted by valtari View Post
    Check out http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Guide/page403 (last post on page) as well in that case. The log you linked is one I looked at as well, but among the top 15 parses at the time, that one is the only one that got anywhere close to getting the same Claw intervals as the sims. Meaning it probably just had insane luck with EBA?
    From what I can tell, it's likely due to no one in those logs actually having 83% uptime on Steady Focus. I'm pretty sure that their pets are not gaining the SF buff enough to have enough focus to do the Basic Attacks as frequently in sims. This one had 76.23%+ uptime (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...uras&source=13), but there were some in your list that were even as low as 66%.

    If you want Basic Attacks on CD, I'm pretty sure you'll have to have SF up higher than the ones you were looking it. It should come with practice. As more top parsers with the right level of gear get more practice with SF, we should see BAs at the 2.79 interval that Simcraft has for the percentage uptime. If not, we just need to tell Lokrick and the others about the discrepancy and they should issue a fix, but I don't technically see a problem here (other than that the SF uptimes are not what I was expecting to see in logs).

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