Shamans

[Ravex]

Is anyone else playing other control decks finding shamans hard countering them lately?

Seems whenever I meet one they just counter control me get me just low enough to either pull off a leeroy, doomhammer, windlord combo.

They don't really seem to be op to me, I just seem to be hitting a wall.

Anyone have any insights or strategy they find useful against them?

[Temp name]

Expect Hexes and earth shocks. Bait them out with things you don't really need, but are still annoying to deal with. Sun Walkers are a prime example of something that will soak some removal

[Ravex]

Expect Hexes and earth shocks. Bait them out with things you don't really need, but are still annoying to deal with. Sun Walkers are a prime example of something that will soak some removal

hmm I try to bait but end up still having issues, here my deck. Maybe drop a Sen'jin and Spectral for 2 Sun Walkers?

[Temp name]

I'd say drop a Holy Light and Sludge for Sun walkers. You don't need 2 holy lights (from my experience).

[Ravex]

I'd say drop a Holy Light and Sludge for Sun walkers. You don't need 2 holy lights (from my experience).

Drop a Sludge Belcher? HEATHEN! So good =/

I'll give it a go, see if it changes anything, probably wont get matched against a single shaman now. lol

[Fluorescent0]

I'd say drop a Holy Light and Sludge for Sun walkers. You don't need 2 holy lights (from my experience).

I'd rather drop the spectral knight, belchers are so good. I also don't particularly like AW, and would try a second harvest golem instead.

[Temp name]

Drop a Sludge Belcher? HEATHEN! So good =/

I'll give it a go, see if it changes anything, probably wont get matched against a single shaman now. lol

Prolly not, but at the end of the day, you're worsening some other match ups to improve it against shaman.

And why a Sludge instead of Sen'jin? Personal preference really.. I like Sen'jins more, you could try removing a sen'jin and keeping the Sludge in, or getting rid of the spectral and keeping them both. Just try messing around with the cards you don't seem to use against Shaman for some that would improve your match-up.

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I'd rather drop the spectral knight, belchers are so good.

As I said, I personally don't like them. Yes, they are a very effective taunt wall because the deathrattle with a taunt, but I really don't like it because I feel it's extremely vulnerable to silence.

[r3d3mpt10n]

Sludge should bait Earthshocks itself.

Maybe youre giving the shaman a better hold of the board than you should, which is why hes not using his removal on things he would usually use the removal on.

As Mehman said though, you can probably switch out a holy light for a sunwalker, but i would consider keeping the sludge atleast.

[Fluorescent0]

As I said, I personally don't like them. Yes, they are a very effective taunt wall because the deathrattle with a taunt, but I really don't like it because I feel it's extremely vulnerable to silence.

A silence wasted on a belcher is a silence less for tirion/cairne. Honestly, silencing to remove a 1/2 is a pretty bad use of a silence imo.

[Ravex]

Sludge should bait Earthshocks itself.

Maybe youre giving the shaman a better hold of the board than you should, which is why hes not using his removal on things he would usually use the removal on.

As Mehman said though, you can probably switch out a holy light for a sunwalker, but i would consider keeping the sludge atleast.

Trust me I do try my best to keep his board down. Just becomes very hard sometimes with all the deathrattles and the fact that pally isn't the most aggressive deck.

I obviously have some room to improve a bit, but hiding behind taunted totems and stoneclaw while buffing with flametongues counters my play a bit.

Its usually a long match with either no cards or very few left but I end up taking 20 damage in one go =/

First match was a control warrior, used his black knight on a Senjin so the sunwalkers ruined his day. I did manage to kill my deathlord on my turn pulling out his ysera to wipe that a rag and grom off the board in 1 turn though, got alittle harry sitting on 8 life at the end positive he had a gorhowl left, was really wanting that holy light I took out xD.

Edit: I did agree on dropping the belcher instead of a Sen'jin based purely on that I have to keep some lower cost cards to deal with the zoos.

[kaiadam]

Some cards I would consider removing:

- Holy light. As mentioned, two is a little overkill. It's situationally good against burn decks, but not good enough that you'll want two of them in your hand against a control matchup.

- Deathlord. It's like playing a less catastrophic of Millhouse Manastorm. He may not pull a good minion out, but will he counterbalance the 5% chance that he does? I doubt a single 2/8 taunt will raise your win% by that much.

- Azure Drake. Naxx brought so many good 5 slot drops, it's probably best to roll your cantrip minion to something else - pros are using Gnomish Inventors these days because there aren't that many solid 4 drops (they don't use shieldmaster either.) You won't be using your only spelldamage card with it very often either (consecration.)

- Spectral Knight. You don't have any way to taunt it up, so effectively you're just putting out a big dude. Control paladin is slow enough and your 5 drops need immediate impact.

- Ragnaros. It's the only minion in your deck that can be BGH'ed, and more often than not, it will be.

Cards you could consider putting in:

- Haunted spider. Very sticky minion that helps your early game; good totem stomper.
- Gnomish Inventor (mentioned previously)
- Abomination (totem clearer.)
- Baron Geddon (another totem clearer.)
- Sylvanas (removal bait. bigger effect than sunwalker if left unchecked.)
- Stampeding Kodo (combos well with humility & peacekeeper; wrecks acolyte of pain, deathlords, flametongue totems.)
- Hammer of wrath (nail those pesky 3 hp totems hiding behind a taunt wall. Combo with Pyro for a DIY swipe).

[Ravex]

Some cards I would consider removing:

- Holy light. As mentioned, two is a little overkill. It's situationally good against burn decks, but not good enough that you'll want two of them in your hand against a control matchup.

- Deathlord. It's like playing a less catastrophic of Millhouse Manastorm. He may not pull a good minion out, but will he counterbalance the 5% chance that he does? I doubt a single 2/8 taunt will raise your win% by that much.

- Azure Drake. Naxx brought so many good 5 slot drops, it's probably best to roll your cantrip minion to something else - pros are using Gnomish Inventors these days because there aren't that many solid 4 drops (they don't use shieldmaster either.) You won't be using your only spelldamage card with it very often either (consecration.)

- Spectral Knight. You don't have any way to taunt it up, so effectively you're just putting out a big dude. Control paladin is slow enough and your 5 drops need immediate impact.

- Ragnaros. It's the only minion in your deck that can be BGH'ed, and more often than not, it will be.

Cards you could consider putting in:

- Haunted spider. Very sticky minion that helps your early game; good totem stomper.
- Gnomish Inventor (mentioned previously)
- Abomination (totem clearer.)
- Baron Geddon (another totem clearer.)
- Sylvanas (removal bait. bigger effect than sunwalker if left unchecked.)
- Stampeding Kodo (combos well with humility & peacekeeper; wrecks acolyte of pain, deathlords, flametongue totems.)
- Hammer of wrath (nail those pesky 3 hp totems hiding behind a taunt wall. Combo with Pyro for a DIY swipe).

I like the deathlord for zoo and I use it against control only when I am planning on wiping their board soon so its drawback is actually alright for my deck.

Azure drakes are hard to let go since I lack card draw, I definatley see your point though.

Spectral Knight comes in handy against warriors but yea I think I'll scratch it.

Rag is usually used for a finisher or when I don't have another answer so I think I'll keep him.

Spiders seem a bit meh to me in this deck, Gnomish is just a worse drake since I really don't die till far passed turn 10. Baron and Abom work against my hero power directly, I do like Sylvanas so I may try to work her in shes pretty costly for an easy silence. I'm going to add Kodos back in they used to be there. Hammer maybe, but I've always seen that as a weak card.

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Updated deck: I really want to fit Sylvannis in but I don't think I have much left to cut =/

[kaiadam]

Why sunwalker over sylvannas? They cost the same, but sunwalker is weaker if silenced, susceptible to black knight, and has less of an effect if left unchecked. I could see an argument against zoo but with how they've slowed down dramatically by incorporating eggs and spiders, you should be able to drop a non-taunt on turn 6 and expect to survive.

I actually got the spider idea from Realz who went 7-1 with his paladin deck at the VGVN tournament yesterday, pulled off a 3-0 twice against RDU and Xixo.

[Ravex]

Why sunwalker over sylvannas? They cost the same, but sunwalker is weaker if silenced, susceptible to black knight, and has less of an effect if left unchecked. I could see an argument against zoo but with how they've slowed down dramatically by incorporating eggs and spiders, you should be able to drop a non-taunt on turn 6 and expect to survive.

I actually got the spider idea from Realz who went 7-1 with his paladin deck at the VGVN tournament yesterday, pulled off a 3-0 twice against RDU and Xixo.

Mostly because shes pretty much worthless against zoo, handlock, and hunters (imo) I usually have played a few taunt before a sunwalker will come out so I havent run into much trouble with a black knight. I'm still regularly dropped down to less then half health by turn 4-5 against zoo so they are still plenty fast, at least against arguably the slowest deck.

Is there a recording of his matches I'd like to see how he used them, I can't really think of a time where I was thinking I sure could use a couple extra 1/1s.

[kaiadam]

http://www.twitch.tv/onenationofgamers/c/4877242

Realz played his games starting at around 1:05, 3:10, and 5:15.

[Temp name]

Atm I have two paladin control decks, one that is just an all out "Fuck it, I CONTROL EVERYTHING" deck, and one slightly cheaper (mana cost) deck, so that it can do well against mid-range without having to outlast them.

First one is:

Completely home grown, could probably change it to be more effective (Add in a kodo or two), but it still does well in its current state.

Second one:

As the name implies I stole the idea from Kolento, but tinkered with it slightly myself.

There are some things that both of them have, which really, if your paladin deck doesn't have, you should play another class (Equality, Aldor Peacekeeper, Truesilver, Concecrate and Hammer of Wrath). Then there's the higher cost cards they both use, and that you have, or should get in my opinion (Tirion, Lay on Hands, Sunwalkers). Outside of those, it's mostly just figuring out what cards you like that do well and complement your playstyle. Sludge's are too slow for my taste, that doesn't mean they're not good, they may very well be, but in the end they're mostly just a Sen'jin, and Sen'jin does Sen'jin better than Sludge in my mind (Also the difference between 5 and 6 is so small, that most likely I can get a Sunwalker out when I need a Sludge).