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  1. #101
    You are aware that 25 man guilds will cut players in the next few months making a pool of available players bigger don't you?

    They might not do it from the start because you can bring up to 30 people in heroic, but as soon as they jump in mythic, a lot of players won't be happy to see bench actions when they had a guaranteed raid spot before.

  2. #102
    heroic (mythic) guilds don't progress on normal (heroic) to begin with, so that'll happen probably as soon as 6.0 goes live and guilds no longer have room for folks.

    Good call though.

  3. #103
    Should do nothing but good things for my 25 man group. Going to kill my 10 man group though. Going to be tough for a lot of people. I'm curious how many 10 mans are really mythic capable.

  4. #104
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    *Every single 10m HM guild.

    So like, 1% of all guilds.
    My point is that because of the extra long tier, HC raiding guilds are not longer just that 1%, HC raiding guilds are pretty much every normal guild at this point.

    Year long tiers flatter people. So what my thought was that far too many guilds will try for mythic, most of them will fail and the resultatn drama will be terribe for the game in the short and mid term. (I think one raid size and sticking to it is good for the game overall.)
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    You are aware that 25 man guilds will cut players in the next few months making a pool of available players bigger don't you?

    They might not do it from the start because you can bring up to 30 people in heroic, but as soon as they jump in mythic, a lot of players won't be happy to see bench actions when they had a guaranteed raid spot before.
    I can't speak to every 25 man obviously, but in the 25 man I am in and the ones I have been in, there were always at least 5-7 tenuous spots with trials and less than stellar players. So saying every 25 man has 25 people that had guaranteed raid spots doesn't strike me as a universal thing.

  6. #106
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blade and Soul View Post
    I have not been in a hardcore raiding guild since the Burning Crusade, but that was the last time they really changed up the raid dynamic. We had the introduction of 10 man and 25 man. Our guild had ~50 raid capable people at the end of Classic WoW. We would swap members out as needed to keep the gear level of the guild somewhat even.

    What happened in the Burning Crusade caused me to finally throw in the towel with hardcore raiding in a guild.

    As an officer and founding member I was part of the "clique" of the first 10 man raid team for Kara. Due to the clique nature we rarely let other people join our team (was usually when we were down a person or so from the first team clique). I felt this was wrong. The first team should have split and formed a second team after we had the raid close to farm status. That way the second team wouldn't have to start from scratch.

    I reminded the other officers that before TBC was released, we made sure we had a balanced guild and kept all members of the guild as raid ready as possible.

    However, they refused to let go of the clique and my suggestion went upon deaf ears. Their philosophy was that the other members of the guild should make their own groups and, here's the key, not depend on being carried by them.

    This pissed me off, so I took matters into my own hands. I left the first team and started the second 10 man group. Yes, it was like starting all over, but if we were going to raid 25 man content we were going to need it, and at least 5 more people raid ready as well.

    However, by this time the damage had already been done. The guild was fractured and people began leaving. Even people part of the so called "A" team began to leave one by one.

    What was left was a shell of what the guild used to be. That was the end for me. Now I only raid every so often with other guilds or PUGs so I don't have to relive what happened in the past.

    Anyways, that's my story to add to the bonfire.

    I fully believe we will see the same thing happen for mythic raiding guilds. Five or more people are going to get cut and cliques will form once again. Although the number difference is smaller (25 to 20, or 10 to 20 instead of 40 to 10, or 40 to 25), I see it still happening.
    I expect to see this as well - the pressure and extra competition will bring out the shittier side of people as they seek to protect themselves first and foremost. I did what you tried to do in TBC but managed to actually pull it off and get split raid teams and actual gearing of the "bads" going on, but I only just managed it.

    The dynamic as you move from 10 to 20 or 25 to 20 is simple to understand and hard to fight. Each player doesn't want to help anyone else because that puts their own spot in jepoardy, some will even actively sabotage other players if they can get away with it (causing drama, hogging loot they don't really need etc) but at one and the same time, helping other guildies out is essential for progress.

    Strong social ties (which i believe are the backbone of the games success) are frayed or severed by this kind of process.
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  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    It's a bizarre idea, from where I am sitting. They come up with the sensible approach of allowing a flexible size of raid, something that I suggested years ago. Then ruin it by making it flexible up to a certain point, where it suddenly becomes a rigid number that is different to anything seen in the game since Vanilla.
    20 is a number where a group can reasonably be expected to be able to field one of every spec and two of every kind of funky cooldown that might be important for a particular encounter.

    Blizzard settled on 20 as the "magic number" because it was the smallest round number that met that very important goal.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrel View Post
    I agree that the 15 person raid size would work better than 10 or 15, but 3 Tanks?
    You need to look at the population of available tanks, as well as what 3 tanks implies --encounters having enough NPCs to require 3 tanks -- and if that were the case each fight would just turn into a stack and cleave fest.
    My point was direct scaling.

    So that the fiveman groups people have since level 15 when first instance opens will scale up to raids, you just add more of the same kind of groups to build a raid group. In ideal world that would be great, but it indeed makes it harder for 2nd or 3rd tank do something smart... Maybe adding more utility would be the key.

    Anyway.. It would've been nice symmetrical design from the start, but it's just speculation and wont happen.

  9. #109
    While I think the new Mythic size will make for an overall better experience for those that do it, I think in time it will lead to a reduction in the size of the hardcore community overall. I think it will be seen as a great thing, until they all need to keep filling spots and start figuring out that its not going to be a walk in the park. It will be at first, there will be plenty of people looking for new homes, but later on down the road I think it will be much more difficult.

    Will be interesting to watch and see what happens.

  10. #110
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    You are aware that 25 man guilds will cut players in the next few months making a pool of available players bigger don't you?

    They might not do it from the start because you can bring up to 30 people in heroic, but as soon as they jump in mythic, a lot of players won't be happy to see bench actions when they had a guaranteed raid spot before.
    Go check some guild tracking sites, the amount the 25 guilds will free up is way less than 10% of the total required to keep those guilds steady. Taking an optimistic analysis from WoWProgress says it will amount to around 5%...

    10 mans need to find new blood, tin foil hat time: perhaps this was Blizzard's secret plan all along!
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  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    10 mans need to find new blood, tin foil hat time: perhaps this was Blizzard's secret plan all along!
    All serious 10man heroic guilds already merged months ago and are ready for the mythic raids. You can take off your tinfoil hat now.

  12. #112
    Lol I'm going to bump this thread because the amount of '14/14H guild LFM WOD raiding' on the guild recruitment pages is hilarious. It's as if half the heroic raiding ten man guilds only just realised that in just one month's time they will need another 10 equally geared players to continue raiding heroics (which will turn into mythics). Bonfire of the 10man guilds indeed! Nobody panic! Keep calm and carry on recruiting another 10 heroic geared players....

  13. #113
    Dreadlord Icaras's Avatar
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    For me, it was just another reason to retire/quit committed guild raiding, and another reason not to start come WoD.
    You must show no mercy, Nor have any belief whatsoever in how others judge you: For your greatness will silence them all!
    -Warrior Wisdom

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post

    Year long tiers flatter people. So what my thought was that far too many guilds will try for mythic, most of them will fail and the resultatn drama will be terribe for the game in the short and mid term. (I think one raid size and sticking to it is good for the game overall.)
    this is so true - i tried to be voice of reason when my old guild transformed to 25 man in panic cause "we gonna hit mythic on the week it will be open" forgeting that even if they were 11/14 hc at the end of day it took us 2+ months to clear normal (and those 1-2 months would be more then enough of time to recruit for mythic in wod) so why should anything be different in WoD - they wasted 2 months on transformation and now struggle to complete rooster anyway and have to pug cause people see that the chances to even get to garosh before 6.0 are slim at best o they dont show/take a break .

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