h soo 25 man difficulty question

[jupiteran]

how much more difficult is paragons compared to blackfuse?

[Th3D0n]

I'd have to say about the same or easier. Just have to get the tactic right and it's a kill.

[Wythel]

I found it easier.

Less chaotic, much more predictable despite the huge amount of techniques.

[Aphrel]

Even with the enrfs id say paragons are harder then blackfuse simply because there are so many mechanics to be aware of on that fight. The diffrence isnt very big now thou.

[Dracodraco]

Paragons is a lot more taxing on the individual. Any number of things can fuck the raid completly if one person messes up - off the top of my head:

Tank fucking up injections (parasites).
People fucking up eating/double eating parasites.
Rapid fire (dance).
Getting chaught in whirling.
2 of Xaril's 3 abilities.
Tank not ambering the mesmerize target.
Death from above.


Meanwhile siegecrafter has nothing exceptionally lethal except for the belt.

[Thursley]

They are very different fights. Blackfuse can be more comp dependent in terms of having the right people to deal with mines and having good people for the belt. Once you have the general strategy, success depends on your strongest links, and you get to choose who they are for the most part. You'll wipe fast if they screw up though. Paragons is the opposite, a fight where you often have little control over who has to handle mechanics, if it isn't just everyone, such as randomly assigned scorpions, dodging rapid fire, dodging Ka'roz, and so on (though composition does matter, as it certainly can be made easier with more people who can break the Aimed shot and Mesmerize, for example). It's also a marathon fight with generally the most punishing mechanics early. Unlike blackfuse, it's a "weakest link" fight, where success depends on how well everyone in the raid handles mechanics (since you can't force the tricky ones onto your strong links). Tactics are fairly straightforward, though there are quite a lot of them to remember (if you have trouble, write them down or divide the instructions among different raid members until you have practice with all the phases). It's EXECUTING the various mechanics correctly over a long fight that makes the challenge.

That said, it's been a while since my guild's kill and I would definitely expect the increased item level from 4/4 upgrades and such to have a much bigger impact on Paragons than Siegecrafter, so you may be able to muscle through the end of the fight even after losing some people early.

I don't understand how it could be seen as the MORE predictable fight though, since basically every aspect of Blackfuse apart from who gets selected for saws/lasers is completely scripted and timed, while Paragons use their abilities in various orders at various times depending on when you kill other ones or sometimes seemingly at random.

[Deleted]

Paragons is significantly more difficult. At any one time there might be multiple abilities going off, any one of which could kill you. Initially it seems very overwhelming due to the abilities of 9 different bosses, but you really only need to learn the first few and then a new set of abilities as you progress further into the fight. It's not like you will be beating it in your first night on it.

[Wythel]

@Thursley : imo, the kill sequence makes the fight very predictable, and people place themselves according to the next techniques regardless who will be the target.

Blackfuse is a sort of neverending pingpong between safe zones where people hope they won't be the next unlucky saw/laser guy...

[Deleted]

@Thursley : imo, the kill sequence makes the fight very predictable, and people place themselves according to the next techniques regardless who will be the target.

Blackfuse is a sort of neverending pingpong between safe zones where people hope they won't be the next unlucky saw/laser guy...

I couldn't disagree more here. The abilities of the Paragons are not pre-determined at the pull, they are determined when they each become active, which in turn depends on how quickly you kill each one. The upshot being that the overlap of abilities changes with each pull. On Siegecrafter it's much simpler: when you get targeted, you move the the pre-determined spot to drop the blade off or the pre-determined path to drop the laser off - and the timings are all set from the second you pull.

[Deleted]

On 25m, paragons is the only "difficult" encounter besides garrosh. I mean, blackfuse on 25m is just pew pew. So, imho, much more difficult paragons than blackfuse

[timoseewho]

Tank not ambering the mesmerize target.

i knew that there was a use for that amber!

[Gardiff]

For 25 if you are freshly progressing on it, I would say paragons is harder.

In 10s, its just the opposite.

Not taking into account how certain abilities are balancable (is this a word?), things on siege 25 are just much easier because things exist like fire pnly on one person / sawblades pnly on one person / one person dies on belt resulting in belt group having to compensate only a little bit harder / one person dies on main platform on 10 man results in the boss staying alive way longer.

Granted on 25 man he has WAY more than the standard ~2.8-3x health (approx ~3.4-3.5x iirc but it kind of makes sense because its easy to 3-4 man each belt on 25. kind of hard to solo EVERY belt in 10s (no such thing as 1.2 / 1.6 people on the belt for 10s + fewer debuffs / buffs while on belt) so you are pretty much always sending 2 people outside of the first couple of belts which can result in a TON more downtime (when compared to 25s) for the boss unless if you have hunters / boomkins / monks / etc) and there are ~3x the mines (though very easy to control on 25).

Also, the health thing kind of makes sense when things like being forced into USUALLY 2 healing it for progression (because if 1 healing ON PROGRESSION w/ non-monk (i.e. not now for most of us), if that healer got picked over and over by fire (which is possible if melee heavy), that could mean death unless if you had a ton of cds on 10, vs using something similar (2-4 healers) on 25 man, resulting in again having the ability to have more dps in the raid in general.

On the flipside.... paragons on 10 is like the exact opposite. For siege it kind of makes sense because you can't exactly shoot out 3 sawblades / send 3 people for each fire just because of how things work (it would be way harder). But on 25, for instance, things like aim on paragons are easily scalable. Its a joke on 10 (something like ~1.8 million damage pre-nerf and pre-buff of the bosses) but hits for something like 3x the damage on 25 (forgot exact numbers).

There are other things on paragons, but those things have been covered so... yeah.