iLvl 570 for Garrosh NORMAL?

[kamuimac]

While you COULD make your own group, the likelihood it will succeed is minimal. So, people saying that are unrealistic.

wait wait wait - and why wuld u say its minimal/unrealistic - all those 550s continiue to say how awesome they are and how amazing numebrs for their itlv they do - so why would it be unrelaistic ? maybe cause in reality they all suck badly and only way for them to get that kill is omg get carried by all those bad awefull 570s who dont want to carry them ?

[Otimus]

wait wait wait - and why wuld u say its minimal/unrealistic - all those 550s continiue to say how awesome they are and how amazing numebrs for their itlv they do - so why would it be unrelaistic ? maybe cause in reality they all suck badly and only way for them to get that kill is omg get carried by all those bad awefull 570s who dont want to carry them ?

So, either someone is getting carried, or someone is bad? Do you realize this is a circular argument?

[Lime]

The best thing to me....because its funny as hell to me....I'm standing there in sw on stormrage with my lowbie lock and I see non stop guilds selling garrosh kills even saying "just stand there and get your acheivement" then next few lines need 2 more for garry kill must have AHOTC and some ilvl. On stormrage they constantly sell all kinds of boss runs and even full carries thru whole raids.

Hell one guy even sells battle pet leveling service....

Doesn't all this undermine ilvl or even acheivement reqs?

Not really. If they're bad and they get into my raid, I'd much rather them be geared. Geared Baddie > Much lower geared Baddie

[Kezotar]

570? Lucky. I don't take people under 580.

[Radish Spirit]

So, either someone is getting carried, or someone is bad? Do you realize this is a circular argument?

Umm, that's not what he said at all.

Why not just answer the question? If 550 is plenty for Garrosh as everyone in this thread claims, then why would a group made up of them have a minimal chance at success as you claim?

[Maggibesti]

So, I need to vent, and well, I just want to hear other people's opinions too. Recently my friend and I have been trying to get a normal Garrosh kill, as we don't have the time to raid, but we do extremely good DPS for our iLvl (We have been told this by many people, and I have iLvl 541, him being 567), but when we go to Oqueue or /2 all we get are people saying "You need to be 570 iLvl", I've even seen the same thing for FLEX. Its disgusting.

So my question is, why are people slapping a 570 requirement for normal, when he only drops 553, and why are people rely on some stupid number for "Brains and competence".

(Apologies if the grammar is off or anything, I woke up about an hour ago and am still tired from a frustrating night.)

ilvl is just a number, people always forget that. You could be boosted to heck 580ilvl, and someone from a top raiding guild could do the same dps on a 530ilvl character, heck even more. I've personally seen shitty people with heroic raiding gear and tons of warforged items all upgraded 4/4, yet they suck so bad I could probably perform better on my timeless isle geared characters.

You could have 10 people with full 570ilvl and still wipe 10 times on garrosh, you could have 10 people with 540ilvl who actually know the fight and know my character and do it without even wiping once. I've personally tried to get into garrosh normal kills cause I still need him, but they all require 565+ and I'm only 562(only 2/4 upgraded with my gear) and those with 560req or less never need dps. But I know the fight, I've been on him quite a few times with my old guild, never killed him cause tanks were fucking up in p1 and people too stupid to interrupt on MC(but I haz cooldownz I must dps boss hurrdurr). So I eventually stopped playing with them, and what we know they're still progressing in normal(sometimes stuck on galakras, sometimes on Thok, sometimes on Spoils) like when I was raiding with them, we'd get 13/14, next week only 4/14, week after that 9/14 week after that 10/14, then 13/14 and it went like this over and over. I even told them to just extend the raid at 13/14 to kill garrosh, but nope, lets do a fresh raid every week and fuck up on those super easy bosses.

Oh and everyone in that guild was full normal geared only needing warforged gear, and some even killed garrosh and some had all the normal items they needed. I started with them when I had shitty timeless gear and 3-4 flex items, ended up only missing 1 trinket(lost 2 times on it) and a neck. It's been 5 months, still no Garrosh kill when average ilvl of the group was around 563+ probably.

[Radish Spirit]

ilvl is just a number, people always forget that. You could be boosted to heck 580ilvl, and someone from a top raiding guild could do the same dps on a 530ilvl character, heck even more.

No, they could not. That's not how the game works. You can't press your buttons in some magical way that makes your abilities do more damage. As an excellent player you might compete with a 580 as a 560 or 565, but 530? Absolutely no way. The best player in the game would get completely crushed in that situation.

Further, the argument is asinine because nobody from a top raiding guild have a 530 iLvl.

You could have 10 people with full 570ilvl and still wipe 10 times on garrosh, you could have 10 people with 540ilvl who actually know the fight and know my character and do it without even wiping once.

Yeah, no shit. Did you read any of the posts in this thread? We've been over this already. What you say is true, but if as a raid leader you have the choice of 9 strangers in 570 or 9 in 540, the choice is fucking obviously clear and nobody would take the 540's ever in a million years even once.

I've personally tried to get into garrosh normal kills cause I still need him, but they all require 565+ and I'm only 562(only 2/4 upgraded with my gear) and those with 560req or less never need dps.

I need DPS almost every time I do normal. I've been running OpenRaid events every week for 3 months with a 560 item level requirement.

Everyone always claims they can't find groups and then all you have to do is scratch the surface to find out what they actually mean is "I'm too lazy to find groups."

I was raiding with them, we'd get 13/14, next week only 4/14, week after that 9/14 week after that 10/14, then 13/14 and it went like this over and over. I even told them to just extend the raid at 13/14 to kill garrosh, but nope, lets do a fresh raid every week and fuck up on those super easy bosses.

Oh and everyone in that guild was full normal geared only needing warforged gear, and some even killed garrosh and some had all the normal items they needed. I started with them when I had shitty timeless gear and 3-4 flex items, ended up only missing 1 trinket(lost 2 times on it) and a neck. It's been 5 months, still no Garrosh kill when average ilvl of the group was around 563+ probably.

Wow, okay. What? Why is this relevant to the discussion? Who cares about any of this? Your guild sounds shitty. Find another guild. It's not rocket science.

[Otimus]

Umm, that's not what he said at all.

Why not just answer the question? If 550 is plenty for Garrosh as everyone in this thread claims, then why would a group made up of them have a minimal chance at success as you claim?

Probably because most of the people wouldn't know what they were doing, and the group would just break up. At least that's how it was with pugs in WOTLK.

It's still circular logic, though, and the other part of my post before that is absolutely true.

[zorkuus]

No, they could not. That's not how the game works. You can't press your buttons in some magical way that makes your abilities do more damage

You can however press your buttons in a "magical" way to do less damage, it's called being a bad player.

[Arbs]

Sometimes I feel people only complain about iLevel requirement because they want to be carried themselves.

Like it's their group their rules, make your own group with your own rules. If you expect to get a clear run than have a bunch of high geared friends help.

[Revi]

ilvl is just a number, people always forget that. You could be boosted to heck 580ilvl, and someone from a top raiding guild could do the same dps on a 530ilvl character, heck even more. I've personally seen shitty people with heroic raiding gear and tons of warforged items all upgraded 4/4, yet they suck so bad I could probably perform better on my timeless isle geared characters.

This is just flat out wrong. Unless they're only auto attacking, a 530 cannot out-dps a 580, damage just scales too much. You cannot perform better on your timeless char than ANYONE with 580, which is pretty evident by the fact that you still haven't killed him. Sure, skill differences exist, but you cannot know who is better when making a group, you can only tell who has the most potential and guaranteed minimum. And that's the highest ilvl.

Not to mention those with higher ilvl have clearly raided the current tier more on that class, so they are much more likely to actually be better players as well. Or at the very least, they have a better grasp of the tactics.

It's come up so many times in this thread that lower geared players could potentially out-dps better geared one (and ofc everyone in this thread are way above average skill level), but the fact is that if you bet on a worse geared player, you're betting on horrible odds. Betting on horrible odds that ALSO have much lower pay-off is idiotic.

[Radish Spirit]

Probably because most of the people wouldn't know what they were doing, and the group would just break up. At least that's how it was with pugs in WOTLK.

It's still circular logic, though, and the other part of my post before that is absolutely true.

It's not circular logic at all. You literally just explained why what he said makes perfect sense. If the 550 people "probably wouldn't know what they were doing" then why should we be inviting them to our raids?

- - - Updated - - -

You can however press your buttons in a "magical" way to do less damage, it's called being a bad player.

No, you actually cannot. That's the whole point. Bad players' abilities do exactly the same amount of damage as good ones.

The only difference is rotation mastery and encounter execution, and neither of those will magically make a 530 DPS as though he were 580, nor vice versa.

The existence of someone who is 580 but doesn't know how to play their class at all, while a technical possibility, is so remotely slim as to be an irrelevant consideration when forming a PuG and inviting people (the topic at hand).

[IdiotCheck]

One thing I have noticed of every single person I have seen complain about this topic is they aren't even progressed up to the point they are trying to pug (13/14N). They have a crappy ilvl, they sit around and say "I can outdeeps any one better geared than myself!" And their whole argument stems around "I'm good, I swear!"

To the OP, based on the above, why should anyone take you? You have no normal mode kills except for garrosh (which has to be a carry) and yet you are trying to pug the most difficult normal mode boss this tier. Ilvl aside, you have no experience that jumps out at raid leaders and says "this guy knows his stuff!"

So stop acting like an entitled little brat.

[Toroc]

What's funny is a lot of the 570 groups are just as crappy and don't go as far you think they would. Gear does not equal skill. It's particularly sad to see fellow 570 players fail at MCs and just tunnel away. Garrosh is actually pretty easy, it's the players that make it harder than it has to be. People recruit 570+ players because it provides a comfort which assumes said player will do X amount of DPS/Healing and has experience the fight to reach such ilvl. Unfortunately thats usually not the case lol but it makes sense.

I know it can be frustrating, I was once there, but you have few choices. Make your own group or gear up asap.

[Dreyen]

Best yet: I am 14/14H experienced, so obviously i know how to do garrosh... i tried to get in a group as 540 ilevel (What flex drops) and someone told me "Noty, 550 ilevel only"

Guess outgearing the instance and being very experienced is not enough!

[Invictus9001]

SSo my question is, why are people slapping a 570 requirement for normal, when he only drops 553, and why are people rely on some stupid number for "Brains and competence".

Side effect of remaining GearScore mentality from Wrath. People tend to think, "Those with higher item levels MUST be competent with their class and/or able to meet DPS-checks for enrage-timer purposes. So let's ask for a level that's even higher than the gear that drops in order to make this a smooth clear." In the end, all it does is cater to people who want their alts run through (asking for higher iLevels than they themselves have) and some measure of elitism.

Oh, and before someone re-waves the tired banner of "make your own group," not everyone wants the pressure of leading a group of people (much less strangers) into a raid environment. If everyone could instantly turn off that fear there wouldn't be a need for things like oQueue and OpenRaid.org

[Caliph]

570 is the stack and burn ilvl and i see no problem with it. That's all I do on garrosh. Not interested in running around, separating, running back to the wall. meh none of it is needed. stack burn kill in 4 mins.

[Lime]

...Gear does not equal skill...

You're right. In most cases, Gear is far more important than Skill beyond the basics of the class and encounter.

[Lplatehealer]

I have a 540ilvl Resto Shaman, been healing since WoW came out( not always on shaman, he has been last 3 years).

I have found I out heal most people up to about 560.

I was once in a raid got booted when RL armory checked me. I had a friend in the raid who vouched for me got invited back, did 40% healing in a 25 man and the RL was Druid and 561 ilvl.

Sometimes skill>ilvl but having said that I am unable to outheal people past ilvl 560 as my own is not that.

[Achtalon]

The amount of people who think it's totally okay to demand well beyond the gear dropped by the actual instance is staggering.

"It's their raid, their rules".

I couldn't get into a flex kill for Garrosh this very evening, despite having an item level of 554 and Ahead of the Curve. It's absolutely ridiculous that the server communities in this game have been smashed to the point where people are viewed as bots, eleven months into the tier.

I'm not sure what you're saying other than you're angry things aren't working out how you want.

It would be awfully nice for me to be able to hop onto my fairly active server (Frostmourne, US-Oceanic) and get a pug for my main alt, who is 565. I used to bring him to guild alt runs back before 560, and we cleared 14/14 and all that. So why shouldn't I be able to get into a mere pug now, when my AotC is from when SoO was 4-5 weeks old? Things change with time, you just have to accept it or do what you can to fix it. I consider whining about it on the forums one of the less effective things you can do.