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  1. #481
    It makes less sense for guilds, but when pugging I can't blame someone for not wanting to basically interview a lesser geared person to make sure they aren't just trying to lie their way into a run.

    If you don't spend the time looking into experience/knowledge of classes, the average group that requires 570 will always go smoother than the average group that requires 540.

    The average 570 outperforms the average 540. That's a fact. Sure there are many exceptions but I don't blame every pug leader for not wanting to search out those exceptions. Why settle for 540s when you can fill your group with 570s without trouble?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archermit View Post
    How does a higher item level give you the fast clear?
    If people still focus him down and ignore MC's at teh end you could have all 600 item levels and wipe
    Higher DPS, capability to ignore many (not all) mechanics, etc. Not a hard concept.
    Hell with high enough DPS you can easily get zero MCs on phase 3 normal/flex Garrosh.

  2. #482
    You think people asking for 570 is bad, me and my buddies constantly get turned down for Flexes because we have 580+ item levels. Not really sure why, maybe they think we're joking? Half the people creating pugs are just ridiculous, and personally after doing a few recently I understand why. Wiped REPEATEDLY in Flex 4 where the raid leader had required 550+.

    One thing to keep in mind though, or those saying "look at it from the other's point of view":

    Some may ask for item levels, and while not all fit this description, if you're 575+, have been doing SoO on heroic for 7 months, and just want a quick easy run, then ANY wipes on something as stupidly easy (by comparison) as flex or normal is simply an unacceptable waste of time. I wouldn't take people who 'might' be ok either, I'd stack the deck and get in and out because my time is more valuable than giving people I don't know a chance at a raid they can clear on someone else's time.

    Look at it through the raid leader's eyes instead of your own, as a 540 you're more of a liability than someone who is 570. You MAY be able to hit above your weight, but the raid leader doesn't know that, and trusting people on the internet is just dumb.
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  3. #483
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    i routinely see "LFM SoO 10n 580+" on many friends real-id tags

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Archermit View Post
    How does a higher item level give you the fast clear?
    If people still focus him down and ignore MC's at teh end you could have all 600 item levels and wipe
    On normal or Flex my group never sees MCs in phase 3, he's dead before he can finish the first whirl. You can also easily skip:

    Second wave of adds
    Second engineer
    Second Realm of Y'shaarj
    Him getting ANY empowered abilities prior to phase 3
    Him spawning any adds in phase 3.

    So yeah, stacking the deck works.
    Druidjezus' Law: "As the length of any online discussion increases, the probability that [insert any topic here] will be mentioned approaches 1, duh."
    I am the Druid Jesus, and I approve of this message.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Archermit View Post
    How does a higher item level give you the fast clear?
    If people still focus him down and ignore MC's at teh end you could have all 600 item levels and wipe
    Yes, if that happens. If. If both players do their jobs then the 570 will do more damage. How is this even a fucking question at this point?

    That's literally like saying "How does a bigger engine make your car go faster? You could crash into a tree and then your car would be stopped."

    Literally, exactly the same logic behind both of those arguments. Think on that a bit.
    Last edited by Radish Spirit; 2014-08-30 at 01:36 AM.

  6. #486
    I see why people do it, but I wouldn't I'd just require achievements. It completely ruins the spirit of the game. If you recently rejoined or are on an alt you're apparently subpar compared to the heroes who have been raiding SoO for a year. This is why when I PvE in this game it is absolutely only with a guild I'm in. I really don't see the big-deal in adding people who have the achievement but may take a few minutes longer or 'gosh' even wipe once or twice because they took some time off or are on an alt. It wasn't always like this mind you. Achievements used to be the definition of your skill. I think the issue actually stems from lol LFR (compared to Flex) and lol Flex (compared to Norm) so in order to prove you're any decent you apparently need 30 item levels above either tier to get into the next one.

    "Haha 545 for Garrosh normal"?
    "GTFO scrub"
    Last edited by Debased; 2014-08-30 at 05:36 AM.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Druidjezus View Post
    You think people asking for 570 is bad, me and my buddies constantly get turned down for Flexes because we have 580+ item levels. Not really sure why, maybe they think we're joking?
    thats cause aparently the same idiots who cry that they are not taken to normal on 540 itlv belive that magic number for flex is 13 and anything above will make sky fall on their heads - they continiue to spew nonsenses liek this and then they wonder why nobody wants them in any mode above lfr

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulathar View Post
    If you recently rejoined or are on an alt you're apparently subpar compared to the heroes who have been raiding SoO for a year.
    thats because u are - unless somebody who has 570 itlv plays by rolling his face on the keyboard u will do subpar numebrs compared to them - loom farm is not the same as normal progress with guild - what is so hard to understand about this pls tell me ? everybody agrees that 555 itlv will kill the boss cause thats what the itlv was when all were progressing it in novemeber - but at the same time most guilds wiped for 40-50 times there and it was not uncommon that they were unable to rekill garosh normal even thou they killed 3-4 hc bosses next week

    Garosh is hard fight pls just understand it - its hard and unforgiving in p2.2 unless u have the numebrs to skip 2nd intermission - and the numebrs are around +/-240 dps - and pls dont tell me that people in current 555 itlv are able to pull that off cause its usually bs - they are not especially if what bumps their itlv is 575 ordos loot and they run around with 550 weapons and lfr trinkets - most playerbase is simply unable to reach those numbers so nobody will risk wiping there and 575+ people leaving his group just cause he is friendly and bring in 1 or 2 550 itlv people

  8. #488
    Yesterday I made a PuG for garrosh normal for my 551 warlock, I am 14/14hc and had a garrosh lockout so I post in openraid chat with 565+ and I instantly get at least 5 responses fill up with any random 2 healers above 560 found a 575 tank that said he would solo tank it and 4 dps all over 575 so when I post again looking for 3 more dps I get a few whispers from people at 555 looking for garrosh (which is higher that what I have) but I also get another 5 whispers from 580 people wanting to join so why would I ever want to invite the 550 people? There is so many high geared people looking for garrosh normal so I just much rather get a full 575+ group, one shot it and take all the gear I need from the boss. We pushed phase 3 before the 3rd whirl so I probably could have spammed trade for 5 min invited a booster and made 30k from it as well but some people don't like boosters so I just went without one.

  9. #489
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcanasm View Post
    Been having this problem also. I advise starting your own group, and telling people straight out: "Low dps = removed, no exceptions. Die to derp mechanics = removed, no exceptions". IMO, groups that do this have been the most successful. They won't one-shot Garrosh but they'll kill him after 2 or 3 tries.

    (edit) Also, never fall for or agree to start a "single tank" Garrosh group. Maybe 10% succeed, but they do so by outgearing it ridiculously. When I did this, I was on a 581 Warlock, and below the average ilvl. It barely worked. 90% of these groups are worthless. They reach the same place (Empowered Whirl), then chain wipe to adds until healers ragequit. Why? Because there's no second tank to pull adds off the healers! By and large, "single tank" Garrosh groups are by idiots for idiots.
    What empowered whirl , the only one you'd get in the last phase if you even get that one depending on the grp ? As a DK I just tell people to come close when they have an add on them so army will take it of them. Problem i see if that happens is not the strat or the tank (or lack of off tank) but the healer(s) being dumb enough to stand far away enough from the tank so his aoe won't be able to hit those adds. 1tank tactic works fine if people don't screw it up.
    Last edited by mmocffc62feb06; 2014-08-30 at 12:20 PM.

  10. #490
    Reached a new low last night....was in a pug where 5 of the dps were 580+. Wiped 3 times to people dying to annhilate during transition phase then the group disbanded. This is the quality of players we have to deal with in pugs. Very depressing to say the least -_-

  11. #491
    Deleted
    Well this game takes effort, 570 is not hard at all to get to anymore. Alot of people including myself have alts that are over that ilvl, clearly people want 570 for garrosh because it makes it far smoother. Progression guilds such as mine killed garrosh back in october or whatever with 550ilvl or so after many wipes. So my question is why should we risk it with a low ilvl player. Sad thing is ilvl>skill in SoO. A person at 570ilvl will out dps one at 545ish with little to no effort.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Druidjezus View Post
    On normal or Flex my group never sees MCs in phase 3, he's dead before he can finish the first whirl.
    Except that he does the MCs before he whirls right after the first desecrate in P3 which is about 5 seconds in - so I call BS on that, getting him while he does his first EMP whirl or 1-2seconds before OK, getting him before the MCs - No way

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerchunk View Post
    Uhh, right. Key difference being the former is spoken by a 540 and the latter by a 575, so guess who gets to come to the farming run?
    There's no difference in the mindset of each, which boils down to "give me the path of least resistance". A mindset that is generally lambasted on the forums when discussing folks who go to the LFR, yet is perfectly acceptable in pugs. I wonder why?

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    My deal is all the people that constantly clamour about raids being too hard, people being too exclusionary, community being too toxic, that it stops them from doing the content they want. If those people would spend that time trying to improve themselves or finding a guild to work with instead of whining and doing LFR they would be able to do all the content they want just like people that are already raiding.

    The attitude that is so prevalent lately that instead of trying to overcome boundaries and achieve goals people spend effort complaining that the system is too hard or that the system is against them. Not just in wow, in everything.
    1: I don't care if raids are hard.
    2: The community absolutely is toxic. You literally scoffed at the idea of being nice for niceness' sake, for example! (On top of twisting my words to find a way to turn it into some sort of insult on my quality of play.)
    3: I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for someone to just be perturbed by pugging restrictions. Not every complaint is whining!
    4: Again, it's kind of annoying you're lumping me in here, I don't pug things, and I won't be pugging things. Nor am I whining about it, nor rallying against Blizzard about it. It is what it is.

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    What? You freaking call LFR Looking for retards.
    uhhh.........that's what LFR stands for. Its below easy mode. Simply ever wiping in that thing just makes me loose faith in humanity.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  16. #496
    Item level shows max potential of a character's output. A very skilled 540 mage isn't going to come close to the numbers a 570 mage (average player) can do. Asking for higher numbers increases the chances of your success by a lot by negating the unknown skill level of a lesser geared player claiming to be "fine" for the said run.

  17. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archermit View Post
    How does a higher item level give you the fast clear?
    If people still focus him down and ignore MC's at teh end you could have all 600 item levels and wipe
    dude, Ive been in groups where we one tanked and one healed. Hes dead like seconds after Garrosh finishes transfrmoing for the last phase.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  18. #498
    Hasn't it always been like this?? I remember seeing it with Gearscore back in Wrath....

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
    Item level shows max potential of a character's output. A very skilled 540 mage isn't going to come close to the numbers a 570 mage (average player) can do.
    So True and yet everyone and their brother on this forum seems to think this is a false statement.

    every so often i get a whisper ingame "i am 20 ilvls below whatever you asked but I am skilled blabla" so what you may be skilled but you are not going to outskill this huge gap that 20 ilvl make in this expac - and I will still take the 580 random over your o so skilled 560 alt

  20. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by Instrument View Post
    So True and yet everyone and their brother on this forum seems to think this is a false statement.

    every so often i get a whisper ingame "i am 20 ilvls below whatever you asked but I am skilled blabla" so what you may be skilled but you are not going to outskill this huge gap that 20 ilvl make in this expac - and I will still take the 580 random over your o so skilled 560 alt
    Aye, the dps difference coming from gear this xpax is huge. Few of my friends came back to WoW recently and they've got some LFR and flex gear so far. They are around 540 ilvl w/o cloak and the dps gap between them and me (587 ilvl) is lightyears. I mean I do freaking 1mil dps during the opener with good procs. They in fact are much closer with dps to a 585 disc priest.

    Gear means a lot in SoO. I don't know how it is for all specs, but for me getting above certain gear level incredibly simplifies my rotation as I get a lot more instants to spam. So while gear != skill, with better gear you need less skill in order to perform better.

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