6.0 L45 talent tier rebalanced in latest patch notes

[Jocias]

Seeing as I don't have Beta, can anyone do me a quick favor and check if Ascension provides either 10% energy regen or 15%? Via the proper numbers and not the tooltip, since that might not be updated.

I was going to send a tweet to Celestalon concerning L45 talent balance.

I'm on it boss. Anything you'd like me to log in particular, or just spec ascension and log with advanced logging?

[Hinalover]

Seeing as I don't have Beta, can anyone do me a quick favor and check if Ascension provides either 10% energy regen or 15%? Via the proper numbers and not the tooltip, since that might not be updated.

I was going to send a tweet to Celestalon concerning L45 talent balance.

It's not in the current build, nor is the Power Strike change. Most likely in the next build which was indicated to be later this week (before Friday's Mythic testing).

[Jocias]

What Hina said is correct. 10.19 energy regen without Ascension to 11.21 with Ascension on beta. Definitely 10% for WW right now.

[The Madgod]

I'm on it boss. Anything you'd like me to log in particular, or just spec ascension and log with advanced logging?

Nah that was really it, how much extra energy regen Ascension gives you for BrM / WW.

It's not in the current build, nor is the Power Strike change. Most likely in the next build which was indicated to be later this week (before Friday's Mythic testing).

Alrighty, guess the tweet will have to wait, don't want to waste the developers' time with a question that might not even be 100% warranted.

The way I figure it, while it's not a perfect way to do it because of how an extra chi slot is hard to quantify, I think the general ideal for that tree would be that compared to everything else, the ideal differences would be that you would get 1 extra chi every 45 seconds with PS, X extra spec-specific resource (I.E. EB) every 45 seconds with CB, and 1 extra chi slot with Ascension.

Which means one would need 13.33 EpS prior to getting Ascension in order for it to reach that checkpoint, assuming Ascension provides 15% extra energy regen. If I recall correctly at the beginning of Mists that wasn't entirely a small sum, but it wasn't entirely out of reach if you stacked a good amount of haste. I could be remembering that wrong though.

Still, it's a whole mess better than 20 EpS with Ascension giving 10% energy regeneration.

I think the talent needs to either be buffed considerably, or be made into a fixed energy regen buff rather than a percentile. The latter makes it less interesting, comparatively, but it makes it a lot easier to balance for the beginning and the end of the expansion, where haste values (and how much haste you can realistically HAVE) fluctuate wildly.

[Totaltotemic]

It goes back to what I said in the post on the theorycrafting results thread, it is impossible for the talents to be balanced for WW and BrM simultaneously as they have different energy/chi ratios. What really needs to happen is there needs to be a BrM version of Ascension that increases energy regeneration by 20% or 25% while the WW version stays at 15%. Until they do that, it won't make sense.

Also I think the reason they were updated in the notes and not in the build may have been because my post detailing the problem wasn't until after the build had gone out but before the notes were updated. Either it's a crazy coincidence or he just read it that night and went and changed it internally for the next build, the latter seems more likely.

[The Madgod]

Yeah that's true, isn't it. Chi has different costs and values for the two specs.

That talent is just a fun little mess.

[Totaltotemic]

The way it is now though I'm happy with it, worst case scenario is that Ascension is still dumpster tier for BrM, but then again it was throughout all of 5.4 but people still used it because it's smoother than resource generation every 15+ seconds. At the very least MW and WW are pretty close between all 3 choices, which is better than it has been through the entire existence of the Monk class.

[matthias9742]

I would almost like to see EB charges become part of T45 like chi brew has. have the split be something like PS devalues haste the most, CB has moderate haste devaluation and moderate crit devaluation. Ascension has highest devalue of crit, but has a positive impact on haste. I know this wouldn't be implemented this far into the patch cycle, but with a spec specific mechanic like EB it provides a tuning knob besides the ones the other specs use.

[Promdates]

Patch notes today show Ascension being 20% ER. Also, can anyone confirm what the energy regen per haste is? I think I was showing 90 haste rating = .1 eps.

[Totaltotemic]

Haste is I believe 78 rating per 1%, so 78 per .1 eps for WW and 71 for BrM.

[Promdates]

Base_Regen = 10
Stance = 1.1 BM 1 WW
Ascension = 1.2

Spec_Regen = Base_Regen * Stance * Ascension

Haste_Regen = (Haste_Rating * (Spec_Regen * 0.0001))

Total Regen = round(Spec_Regen + Haste_Regen,2)

That's what I've figured out so far. So far, it matches all of the random haste points I've come across through testing various gears/enchants/flasks on the 100 PvP server.

edit: Also this

Power Strikes is 4 chi per minute
Chi Brew is 2.666....7 chi per minute
Ascension with 0 haste rating is 3.3 chi per minute.

This means that with 355 haste rating, Ascension becomes the better talent for Chi per minute (4.005 chi per minute). The 660 premade pvp set has about 700 or so haste rating before enchants/food/etc. 700 rating would be 4.68 chi per minute.

edit 2: That was for BM. For WW, you would need 555 rating for Ascension to give more Chi per Minute than the other 2.

[Totaltotemic]

I'm all for anything that makes Ascension just barely the best talent, I think it's the most fun one anyways. As long as Power Strikes and Chi Brew are still valid choices if you feel like using them, we're in a pretty good place.

[TheWindWalker]

edit 2: That was for BM. For WW, you would need 555 rating for Ascension to give more Chi per Minute than the other 2.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, proportionally 555 (6.0) rating is equivalent to about 3200 (5.4), isn't it? That's way, way more than "barely the best talent."

[Totaltotemic]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, proportionally 555 (6.0) rating is equivalent to about 3200 (5.4), isn't it? That's way, way more than "barely the best talent."

It depends on what stat priorities are like. Serenity and Hurricane Strike still immensely devalue haste, if haste somehow ends up as one of the worst stats for a fight or something then Ascension would only be barely the best talent. What I'm getting at is that requiring 7.5% haste (when you get 5% from a raid buff anyways) to be the best is a lot better than requiring 20% or 30% haste to be the best because it's very unlikely that those would happen anyways.

[Promdates]

Ok, so apparently I was looking at Total_Regen with ascension and subtracting spec_regen without ascension. It should be Total_Regen w/Ascension minus Total_Regen w/o Ascension to figure out the benefit of ascension's bonus 20%.

This means:

800 haste rating for BM = 11.88 regen without and 14.26 with, a gain of 2.38 ER. (2.38*60)/40=3.57 chi per minute. So, 800 rating is still worse with Ascension (unless I'm doing this wrong too, it is past midnight here) This would put it at 2150 haste rating (or 21.5% haste) to make it better than the others. For WW it would have to be 3350 rating or 33.5% haste. Good luck!

edit: Totaltotemic, don't forget that not only do you gain 5% haste, but you also gain 5% haste rating on top of it from the buff (the buff doesn't mention it, just that it's 5% additional haste... perk!)

[Totaltotemic]

Weird, I thought they got rid of that interaction.


Also I think your numbers are off, for WW one chi has a little more than half of the value it does for BrM, at base value it gets 120 energy in a minute, which is 2.67 Jabs, or 5.333 chi.

[Hinalover]

Currently on live, haste cap for BM is 15 energy per second. For Beta, With Ascension, you are looking at

((15 / 1.2 / 1.1) - 10) * 10 = 13.63% haste or 1363 Haste Rating.

[Totaltotemic]

Currently on live, haste cap for BM is 15 energy per second. For Beta, With Ascension, you are looking at

((15 / 1.2 / 1.1) - 10) * 10 = 13.63% haste or 1363 Haste Rating.

Why 15 energy per second? I don't really know where that number is supposed to come from considering Jab, Jab, BoK takes 80 energy in 3 seconds.

[Hinalover]

Why 15 energy per second? I don't really know where that number is supposed to come from considering Jab, Jab, BoK takes 80 energy in 3 seconds.

Well, most of it is the timing; able to jab every 3rd cooldown.

The other is at 15 energy you can fit 2 Jabs and a KS in an 8 second window:

8 * 15 = 120 / 3 = 40 energy.

So really it's just a soft cap more than anything else.

[Promdates]

You honestly wouldn't go for that much haste as brewmaster though. Especially not this early in an expansion.

edit: It seems like we're going to have to choose between Power Strikes with the "optimal" chi per minute, Ascension with slightly lower CpM but with faster regen to 40 for expel harm, or Chi Brew for the additional Elusive Brew usage and very subpar CpM.