Combustion Technique - Tick compression

[durrtygoodz]

this is indeed correct. 9/10 times tonight my heating up was munched away leaving me only a single pyro to fire at the boss. I still managed and 800k ignite though, twice that of my previous best


Has anyone had any luck with logging fights using this 'mechanic'? id be interested to see some warlocks put in their place

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...pe=damage-done

That's the highest parse so far.

Only 1.4million dps to go!

[Komman]

this is indeed correct. 9/10 times tonight my heating up was munched away leaving me only a single pyro to fire at the boss. I still managed and 800k ignite though, twice that of my previous best


Has anyone had any luck with logging fights using this 'mechanic'? id be interested to see some warlocks put in their place

All top 5 25H TFP fire mage parses have been from the last 36 hours...

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings...Mage&spec=Fire

[Deleted]

Let's check out the fight the #1 mage parse is from ... surely he was topping his guilds warlocks ( http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...pe=damage-done )



Nope, nope, nope. Dear God, nope.

[Soisoisoi]

Has this still not been fixed yet?

[Deleted]

Has this still not been fixed yet?

Seeing as Warlocks are still capable of this:

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...pe=damage-done

I'm going to go ahead and say they're probably not going to touch it until 6.0 drops.

[LocNess]

Has this still not been fixed yet?

Blizzard stated they would not fix it until 6.0. Progression is more than over, it is not an issue in the slightest.

[Valkaneer]

Saw this today when looking at the patch notes listed.

Ignite now deals the same total damage with a 1 second period (down from 2 seconds) Base duration changed to 5 seconds so what duration when refreshed remains 6 seconds.

Not sure if this changes anything or not.

[Komman]

Saw this today when looking at the patch notes listed.



Not sure if this changes anything or not.

This has been active for a few months now. The trick, when I discovered it on beta, was done with this new ignite model. In fact, originally I thought it was a beta-only bug. The next day I decided to test it on Live, only to find that it also worked.

[Ráam]

Been practising this for a few nights now to no avail. What is the timing needed between IB secondary, combust and IB main target? I can get 1 high ignite tick to appear, but it seems to evade me when I try to combust spread.

[Deztru]

Been practising this for a few nights now to no avail. What is the timing needed between IB secondary, combust and IB main target? I can get 1 high ignite tick to appear, but it seems to evade me when I try to combust spread.

Heroism, 3 inside AT Pyro!'s* to main target and PoM Pyro to 2nd target. Break AT, cast 2 Pyro!'s* to the 1st target, 1 to the 2nd target, IB the 2nd target to get the added compressed 7th second ignite to the 1st target and combust the 1st target.

Something like that, I've gotten bigger combustions with it but not even close to Kommans 800k ticks.

[Hauntedd]

Just one pyro on the secondary target, the trick comes into play when you IB a less than 1.5 second ignite from target 2 onto target 1 making the very large ignite on target 1 get compressed to < 1.5 seconds. The game currently tries to calculate that ignite on target 1 by taking the damage that ignite would have done (over 3-4 seconds left on ignite debuff from target 1) and compressing it down to < 1.5 seconds.

So, if you had a 600k ignite with 3 seconds left, that baby becomes 1.8 million over 1 second (I feel like it also averages in your lower ignite with your higher ignite for the compression, otherwise we would probably be seeing bigger numbers)

Soooooo, if you had a 600k ignite on target 1 with 3 seconds left, 100k ignite on target 2 with 1 second left, it would be something like 600k+100k = 700k/2 = 350k x 3 = 1.050 million ignite


Not entirely sure of every detail but that is how I picture what is going on behind the scenes and how I sleep at night

[Deztru]

Just one pyro on the secondary target, the trick comes into play when you IB a less than 1.5 second ignite from target 2 onto target 1 making the very large ignite on target 1 get compressed to < 1.5 seconds. The game currently tries to calculate that ignite on target 1 by taking the damage that ignite would have done (over 3-4-5 seconds left on ignite debuff from target 1) and compressing it down to < 1.5 seconds.

So, if you had a 600k ignite with 3 seconds left, that baby becomes 1.8 million over 1 second (I feel like it also averages in your lower ignite with your higher ignite for the compression, otherwise we would probably be seeing bigger numbers)

Soooooo, if you had a 600k ignite on target 1 with 3 seconds left, 100k ignite on target 2 with 1 second left, it would be something like 600k+100k = 700k/2 = 350k x 3 = 1.050 million ignite


Not entirely sure of every detail but that is how I picture what is going on behind the scenes and how I sleep at night

Ah that makes so much more sense, thanks.

[Komman]

So, if you had a 600k ignite with 3 seconds left, that baby becomes 1.8 million over 1 second (I feel like it also averages in your lower ignite with your higher ignite for the compression, otherwise we would probably be seeing bigger numbers)

Soooooo, if you had a 600k ignite on target 1 with 3 seconds left, 100k ignite on target 2 with 1 second left, it would be something like 600k+100k = 700k/2 = 350k x 3 = 1.050 million ignite

This is not entirely correct. It actually ignores the spread source. It's rather simple in fact - if target one has 3 ticks left, 500K per tick, and then you spread from a target with only 1 tick left, then target one's ignite will become a single tick of 3 * 500K = 1.5M.

In theory, we could so something like "Use first POM pyro on main target" -> "Fireball second target, AT gives you back Pyro procs and POM during this cast" -> "4 pyros into main target" -> "Spread 1s ignite from second target with IB" -> "Combust main target". Unfortunately, things just get increasingly complicated as we start doing these tricks.

[Hauntedd]

This is not entirely correct. It actually ignores the spread source. It's rather simple in fact - if target one has 3 ticks left, 500K per tick, and then you spread from a target with only 1 tick left, then target one's ignite will become a single tick of 3 * 500K = 1.5M.

In theory, we could so something like "Use first POM pyro on main target" -> "Fireball second target, AT gives you back Pyro procs and POM during this cast" -> "4 pyros into main target" -> "Spread 1s ignite from second target with IB" -> "Combust main target". Unfortunately, things just get increasingly complicated as we start doing these tricks.

Really? That's surprising, obviously when you IB, it spreads your ignite dot to all targets, so you're saying if its spreading a lower ignite to a higher ignite the lower ignite damage gets ignored but it still spreads the duration left of the lower ignite? I guess I never looked close enough to see what is going on. Damn you common sense!

edit: I just briefly reviewed my video and according to my combustionhelper (lol) my ignite on my main target was 726,052 before switching and my ignite on my second target was 252,651 right before IB and switching back to main target before combusting. My ignite of my combustion was 2,786,600 which is god awfully close to 3.5 (seconds left of ignite) x 726,052 + 252,651 (=2,793,833). (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpNPk8KZhTI)
The tooltip of ignite also seems like it definitely adds in the ignite of the second target.

Your target burns for an additional 12% over 4 sec of the total direct damage caused by your Fireball, Frostfire Bolt, Inferno Blast, Scorch, and Pyroblast. If this effect is reapplied, any remaining damage will be added to the new Ignite.

So my initial belief of averaging the two ignites is wrong, but it does seem to add them.

[Komman]

So my initial belief of averaging the two ignites is wrong, but it does seem to add them.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't add them, but I cannot say for sure what happened in your case without a log. Let me show some evidence of how it doesn't add.

Here's an analysis by a Chinese dude over at NGA Mage forums (Chinese): http://bbs.ngacn.cc/read.php?tid=7296005&_ff=182&_fp=2
Essentially, what he did he this:
1. Multiply first ignite tick size by 2, divide by opening pyro; this gives mastery %. In this case, it's ~47.4575%.
2. Observe that Target A has a 432019 ignite tick.
3. Observe that a Pyroblast lands for 797647 before IB. This adds 797647 * 0.47575 ~= 378543 to ignite bank. The expected ignite bank is now (432019 original tick size) * (2 ticks) + 378543 = 1242582.
4. IB spread on Target B happens.
5. Observe that ignite ticks on Target A for 1242581. This is exactly 1 damage away from the expected ignite bank on Target A.

In his analysis, we can conclude that either Target B's ignite doesn't matter, or the contribution is less than 1 damage.


Here I'll do the same with the log from Dutchmagoz, linked in the OP: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...ents&options=2
Unfortunately, his log involves a complicated mechanic with Ignite tick protection, which happens when a spell impacts too close to an ignite tick.

00:00:00.000	Dutchmagoz Pyroblast Raider's Training Dummy 1 *288080*
00:00:02.129	Dutchmagoz Ignite Raider's Training Dummy 1 80587

Dutch has 80587 * 2 / 288080 ~= 55.9477% mastery.

00:00:13.504	Dutchmagoz Pyroblast Raider's Training Dummy 1 *783195*
00:00:14.130	Dutchmagoz Ignite Raider's Training Dummy 1 484855
00:00:14.645	Dutchmagoz Pyroblast Raider's Training Dummy 1 *977673*
00:00:15.479	Dutchmagoz Inferno Blast Raider's Training Dummy 2 *150913*
00:00:16.136	Dutchmagoz Ignite Raider's Training Dummy 1 1954872

Ignite at 484855 per tick. Tick protection causes the Pyroblast applied slightly before it to be excluded for some reason.

Total ignite contribution from the 2 pyros: (783195 + 977673) * 0.559477 ~= 985164
Expected ignite bank: 484855 * (2 ticks) + 985164 = 1954874

This 1954874 figure is 2 off from the observed 1954872 ignite tick, which again limits the contribution from the secondary target to less than 2 damage.

That should be pretty conclusive that the secondary target is not contributing.

[Frost1129]

Are we talking about on beta or live?

[Komman]

Are we talking about on beta or live?

I think ~2M ignite ticks on beta would be considered a gamebreaking bug more than a trick!

That said, I still don't have a good idea of this mechanic on beta, due to what seems like complications from pandemic. Many of the logs make no sense to me.

[Frost1129]

I think ~2M ignite ticks on beta would be considered a gamebreaking bug more than a trick!

That said, I still don't have a good idea of this mechanic on beta, due to what seems like complications from pandemic. Many of the logs make no sense to me.

Right, I was mainly asking due to the difference on how interpretable the live vs. beta ignite logs are. Beta just seem completely without logic, live is a bit more understandable.

[Hauntedd]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't add them, but I cannot say for sure what happened in your case without a log. Let me show some evidence of how it doesn't add.

Here's an analysis by a Chinese dude over at NGA Mage forums (Chinese): http://bbs.ngacn.cc/read.php?tid=7296005&_ff=182&_fp=2
Essentially, what he did he this:
1. Multiply first ignite tick size by 2, divide by opening pyro; this gives mastery %. In this case, it's ~47.4575%.
2. Observe that Target A has a 432019 ignite tick.
3. Observe that a Pyroblast lands for 797647 before IB. This adds 797647 * 0.47575 ~= 378543 to ignite bank. The expected ignite bank is now (432019 original tick size) * (2 ticks) + 378543 = 1242582.
4. IB spread on Target B happens.
5. Observe that ignite ticks on Target A for 1242581. This is exactly 1 damage away from the expected ignite bank on Target A.

In his analysis, we can conclude that either Target B's ignite doesn't matter, or the contribution is less than 1 damage.


Here I'll do the same with the log from Dutchmagoz, linked in the OP: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...ents&options=2
Unfortunately, his log involves a complicated mechanic with Ignite tick protection, which happens when a spell impacts too close to an ignite tick.

00:00:00.000	Dutchmagoz Pyroblast Raider's Training Dummy 1 *288080*
00:00:02.129	Dutchmagoz Ignite Raider's Training Dummy 1 80587

Dutch has 80587 * 2 / 288080 ~= 55.9477% mastery.

00:00:13.504	Dutchmagoz Pyroblast Raider's Training Dummy 1 *783195*
00:00:14.130	Dutchmagoz Ignite Raider's Training Dummy 1 484855
00:00:14.645	Dutchmagoz Pyroblast Raider's Training Dummy 1 *977673*
00:00:15.479	Dutchmagoz Inferno Blast Raider's Training Dummy 2 *150913*
00:00:16.136	Dutchmagoz Ignite Raider's Training Dummy 1 1954872

Ignite at 484855 per tick. Tick protection causes the Pyroblast applied slightly before it to be excluded for some reason.

Total ignite contribution from the 2 pyros: (783195 + 977673) * 0.559477 ~= 985164
Expected ignite bank: 484855 * (2 ticks) + 985164 = 1954874

This 1954874 figure is 2 off from the observed 1954872 ignite tick, which again limits the contribution from the secondary target to less than 2 damage.

That should be pretty conclusive that the secondary target is not contributing.

Yeah I'll trust your math over my napkin math, just seems counter-intuitive that the second ignite has NOTHING to do with it..

[Komman]

Yeah I'll trust your math over my napkin math, just seems counter-intuitive that the second ignite has NOTHING to do with it..

I'd argue that this whole thing about "copying remaining duration" is counter-intuitive to start with!