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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
    GC is complaining about a dumbed down game he dumbed down?

    That's level 100 irony right there.

    Lets look at the actual supposed quote

    "It's really refreshing to work on a game where I don't have to worry whether someone's grandmother can pick it up or not."

    He's not complaining about a "dumbed down game he dumbed down", he's talking about not having to worry as much about having to cater to casual customer markets and change the game to their whims or create multiple sections of the game (and somehow balance them together) for many types of players because of multiple market demand.

  2. #602
    Bloodsail Admiral Jamyz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingbrab View Post
    No, they made casual versions of raids so they could significantly cut back on content creation and put more money in the pockets of the owners. They had no problem creating raids in vanilla and TBC, and there are games with significantly less players than WoW managing to put out raid content, it's ridiculous to suggest Blizzard would somehow have to stop making raids completely.
    Of course.

    They probably looked at the numbers, where the curve of players who continue to raiding and players who unsub/stop playeing because there's "nothing to do" and figured out that giving the players who quit a smoother introduction curve to raiding would make a lot of sense for player retention. And thus LFR (and later Flex) were born.

    Now, putting a lot of dev resources to something that only a fraction of players ever do seriously doesn't hurt their bottom line anymore. Had they not done that, I would guess they would have had hard time motivating the ROI costs for raids - probably resulting in less raids (and perhaps smaller raids). I don't think giving up making raids would have ever been an option, but redirecting resources elsewhere would have been a constant battle. This way they can concentrate on producing high quality raids - and it makes good business sense at the same time (and they can shake the ROI demanding beancounters off their backs and concentrate on the game production).

    So you could actually tip over the popular argument and say that LFR and Flex catered to the hardcore players way more than it ever did to casuals.
    Last edited by Jamyz; 2014-08-24 at 11:20 AM.

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The battle pets have the most levelling content out of all of wow. DMF has rep to grind, games to master, pets to collect etc - i.e. you are wrong.
    If you give a crap about battle pets then sure. But I don't cause it doesn't effect my ability to kill a dragon.
    Right, so why are you claiming wows success is due to raiding?
    Cause most people strive to raid. You'd be surprised how many don't actually beat the games they buy. It's not just related to WoW. There's a lot of people who buy Steam games they haven't even touched yet. Maybe the game wasn't their cup of tea? Maybe they got into the game cause a friend forced them? Otherwise if you really want to play WoW then you probably wanted to raid, but something prevented you from doing so.
    If most people don't raid and never did, then this has to be wrong.
    LFR exists so it means people did want to raid.

    Apparently it's questing and pvp for most players, wuit battle pets and LFR just after that. Non LFR Raiding is somewhere below that.
    You assume pet battles are for everyone, but it's like archaeology. Sure it's there but nobody wants to look at it. PvP can really piss off some people because they hate losing to other players. Questing is something everyone has to do to level, unless you pay the $60 to skip it. You can LFR in one day without hands so...

    Raiding is real end game.

    Even normal mode raids in todays wow are much much harder than the hardest content pre LK, btw.
    Whatever makes you sleep at night.
    The other way to look at your argument is this - as raiding has gotten more and more exclusive, wows sub numbers have declined.
    But raiding hasn't become more exclusive now has it? After WOTLK raiding became a lot more accessible, and the subs just continue to drop. Remember the concept of Heroic raids was introduced mid WOTLK, but it was done successfully cause of how the mechanic was activated. In Cata you activate Heroic modes through a menu. But the idea was that normal was easier than Heroic. This was due to the mess of Naxxramas being too herp derp easy.
    Last edited by Dukenukemx; 2014-08-24 at 11:28 AM.

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamyz View Post
    They probably looked at the numbers, where the curve of players who continue to raiding and players who unsub/stop playeing because there's "nothing to do" and figured out that giving the players who quit a smoother introduction curve to raiding would make a lot of sense for player retention. And thus LFR (and later Flex) were born.
    And the ATVI quarterly reports show just how well that idea is working out for them.

    Now, putting a lot of dev resources to something that only a fraction of players ever do seriously doesn't hurt their bottom line anymore. Had they not done that, I would guess they would have had hard time motivating the ROI costs for raids - probably resulting in less raids (and perhaps smaller raids). I don't think giving up making raids would have ever been an option, but redirecting resources elsewhere would have been a constant battle. This way they can concentrate on producing high quality raids - and it makes good business sense at the same time (and they can shake the ROI demanding beancounters off their backs and concentrate on the game production).
    But all the raid content is basically wasted. I got back recently to try MoP after quitting in Cata. I went from level 1 to having done all MoP raids in less than a month. Then quit because the game was dull. It would've been better for me if all MoP contained was one tier like Kara, and a bunch of real heroics like TBC. I saw all the content, but the gaming experience was disastrously bad. The fundamental game mechanics and end game model is just completely broken at the moment.

  5. #605
    Bloodsail Admiral Jamyz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingbrab View Post
    And the ATVI quarterly reports show just how well that idea is working out for them.
    Hmm, I think they've been doing quite ok in the reports, except for the last quearter, but that probably has different explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingbrab View Post
    But all the raid content is basically wasted. I got back recently to try MoP after quitting in Cata. I went from level 1 to having done all MoP raids in less than a month. Then quit because the game was dull. It would've been better for me if all MoP contained was one tier like Kara, and a bunch of real heroics like TBC. I saw all the content, but the gaming experience was disastrously bad. The fundamental game mechanics and end game model is just completely broken at the moment.
    I don't see why it would be wasted? You ran it through in a month because you didn't play when they came out and were relevant to your ilvl. The only raid content that is relevant in that context is Siege - and even that relevancy can be debated now that it is 1 year old (it's fully possible to get carried through HC SoO, if your guild is willing).
    Kara was also a 15 minute faceroll when you ran it at end of TBC with a guild that had cleared Sunwell.
    Last edited by Jamyz; 2014-08-24 at 11:55 AM.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Zagnut View Post
    Based on what, the sonic boom of failure created when Wildstar flopped? I love this fucking fantasy that Blizzard would make more money if only they didn't cater to casuals so hard, and how desperately people like you cling to it. Reality check: There have now been at least two attempts at a "hardcore MMO" and both turned out to be horrible trainwrecks.
    Yeah, it amazing how that ridiculous canard keeps being repeated, despite zero evidence to support it. It's hardcores (or, more likely, hardcore wannabes) projecting their own supposed desires onto the general player population. Totally illegitimate and illogical.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  7. #607
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Honestly, accessibile is a good thing. You play a game for enjoyment, not to spend hours perfecting your craft. It's the community that get behind this idea that things need to be hard, and only the best should be able to do the hard things so everyone else looks in awe at that. I have zero issue with something that's designed for average people, because that's average. You don't design around the top or the bottom, you design around the middle because everything else are outliers.

    The idea that hard content is needed is a myth, just like how before there was this myth that if you made content hard, people would rise to the challenge when it was almost always proven to be false and yet people still brought it up.

    I play actual hobbies (tabletop wargaming) that require an investment of time and/or money (expensive figures, painting them, etc.) and even those tend to rarely focus on the tournament, top-tier crowd. You get some that are more tournament-friendly, but there isn't this big myth that everyone has to be playing at a high level like you find in online games. A game like LoL seems to be more competitively positioned anyways, while WoW (and most other MMOs) generally realize in short order that making things super hard for only the best of the best works fine for the first month or two, then it turns out that people don't like being told "VIP only. No riffraff" at the door. There's a reason why virtually all MMOs end up having to add a dungeon finder, if they don't start with one.
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  8. #608
    Stood in the Fire Spalding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojomoses View Post
    LoL is a casual/fun game that has been labeled as competitive.
    isn't any game casual/fun? it just depends in the person and how serious they are at being the best at it. silly statement
    Dear frozen yogurt, you are the celery of desserts. Be ice cream or be nothing.

  9. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Yeah, it amazing how that ridiculous canard keeps being repeated, despite zero evidence to support it. It's hardcores (or, more likely, hardcore wannabes) projecting their own supposed desires onto the general player population. Totally illegitimate and illogical.
    It's not like the reality of Wildstar's hilarious failure is going to deter them. MMO-C's resident foreveralones have built themselves into a bubble where they seriously believe casual gamers will happily pay a monthly fee for a game that only offers them table scraps out of pity if they beg nicely enough so it can funnel its budget into content balanced for the top 5% of the player base. Wildstar was a fluke, you'll see! So were RIFT, and Everquest 2! The next game that comes out gunning for WoW's hardcore audience will totally succeed and kill WoW once and for all, heralding a new, glorious age of hardcores-only MMO gaming!

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Honestly, accessibile is a good thing. You play a game for enjoyment, not to spend hours perfecting your craft.
    'perfecting your craft' is part of the enjoyment for many people though. accessibility is all fine and dandy until you overdo it and dumb down your game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    The idea that hard content is needed is a myth, just like how before there was this myth that if you made content hard, people would rise to the challenge when it was almost always proven to be false and yet people still brought it up.
    why does blizzard continue supplying all this hard content then? the problems only arises when you tie it to LFR/LFD.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Joey Ray III View Post
    why does blizzard continue supplying all this hard content then? the problems only arises when you tie it to LFR/LFD.
    They must think the rather low marginal cost of including a hard mode (once you already have easier modes) is worth the return. But even GC in that twitter thread said for WoW, the hardcores cannot sustain the game themselves.

    https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...71835465789440
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamyz View Post
    I don't see why it would be wasted? You ran it through in a month because you didn't play when they came out and were relevant to your ilvl. The only raid content that is relevant in that context is Siege - and even that relevancy can be debated now that it is 1 year old (it's fully possible to get carried through HC SoO, if your guild is willing).
    Kara was also a 15 minute faceroll when you ran it at end of TBC with a guild that had cleared Sunwell.
    I paid Blizzard for my xpac and a month a play time, I didn't get quality gaming experience in return. That's the bottom line, and that's why they're losing customers quarter after quarter for years.

    You're describing exactly why the current model is so badly broken. In TBC all the content was current all the time (until they started handing out T6 level gear for badges and dropped T6 attunement at the end). If I had come into TBC late, I could still do heroics the way they were intended and there would still be guilds starting on Kara progress that I could've played with. I wouldn't have "seen everything", but all my play hours would've been filled with meaningful, high quality gaming. In MoP all I did was run through all heroics in a night and all raids in 2-3 nights, and then I had seen everything and was out of content. There was actually quite a lot of content, but all of it was wasted since I didn't get to experience it in a meaningful way, and it didn't provide me with a quality gaming experience.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Honestly, accessibile is a good thing. You play a game for enjoyment, not to spend hours perfecting your craft.
    Who are you to tell me why or how I am supposed to play? Get over yourself. In TBC/WotLK I did spend hours perfecting my craft and it was great, I enjoyed it, and it was worth my money.

    It's the community that get behind this idea that things need to be hard, and only the best should be able to do the hard things so everyone else looks in awe at that.
    Except people who do the hard content typically don't care how others look at them. This is just a fantasy concocted by casuals, who selfishly believe that hardcore players put in all the time and effort just to have the casuals look at them in awe. It's an utter fallacy and needs to be put to rest already.

    The idea that hard content is needed is a myth, just like how before there was this myth that if you made content hard, people would rise to the challenge when it was almost always proven to be false and yet people still brought it up.
    Now you're just parroting GC's tweets. Not everyone will rise to the challenge, not everyone needs to. What the game needs is diversity and variety, and part of that is hard content. It's absolutely not a myth, it's the reason why I don't pay Blizzard at the moment. There should be hard content for hardcores and easy content for bads, and meaningful content for skilled casuals. Blizzard is not delivering that. They're trying to push everyone do the same content at the same time, with only difference being how many times you grind it in how many modes. That's just bad game design, and the sooner they realize they need to build different content for different playstyles, the sooner WoW has a chance to start recovering from the death spiral it is currently in.

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They must think the rather low marginal cost of including a hard mode (once you already have easier modes) is worth the return.
    do we know that's how they design btw? i always thought they start at the hardest mode and go down from there.

  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by Joey Ray III View Post
    do we know that's how they design btw? i always thought they start at the hardest mode and go down from there.
    That's irrelevant. Marginal cost doesn't depend on which is "done first"; it's a measure of how much you save if you omit one of the modes.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  15. #615
    Why would anybody pay to play a game that's too difficult to win in this day and age? Maybe once or twice, for the challenge. But I'm not going to spend however many bucks a month on something that I get no joy from, when I can spend on things I do enjoy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jewbacca View Post
    The reply was not from a tired employee or something. It was an automatic response from an email bot. So it's a grammatical error in their email template. Blizzard can not into English.

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That's irrelevant.
    do you know the answer though?

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Marginal cost doesn't depend on which is "done first"; it's a measure of how much you save if you omit one of the modes.
    doesn't matter what the cost is. if it wasn't worth it blizzard wouldn't be bothered with heroic modes. not only we get them every tier sometimes they even throw in heroic only boss. we also got challenge modes and brawler's guild.

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Honestly, accessibile is a good thing. You play a game for enjoyment, not to spend hours perfecting your craft.
    Great games very much encourage both sides of this coin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    The idea that hard content is needed is a myth, just like how before there was this myth that if you made content hard, people would rise to the challenge when it was almost always proven to be false and yet people still brought it up.
    Hard content, or, in looser terms, 'the stuff you can't do quite yet' certainly is needed, because a player feeling like they've done all they want to is a bad thing for a company trying to sell a persistent-world, sub-based game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That's irrelevant. Marginal cost doesn't depend on which is "done first"; it's a measure of how much you save if you omit one of the modes.
    Shareholders make terrible game designers.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by Prothall View Post
    Why would anybody pay to play a game that's too difficult to win in this day and age? Maybe once or twice, for the challenge. But I'm not going to spend however many bucks a month on something that I get no joy from, when I can spend on things I do enjoy.
    Some people glean their enjoyment from feeling like they worked to accomplish something.

    Some could say the very same thing you said about why someone would play a game that's too easy to win, it's all a matter of personal preference.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dequanacus View Post
    Some people glean their enjoyment from feeling like they worked to accomplish something.

    Some could say the very same thing you said about why someone would play a game that's too easy to win, it's all a matter of personal preference.
    That's not to say of course, that artificial difficulty is a good thing, something can be hard and enjoyable instead of being hard for the sole purpose of extending the time you're playing the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kekekz View Post
    Everyone hated BC, everyone hated Wrath, everyone hated Cata and everyone will hate MoP. MoP will become the new worst expansion and Al'akir or BoT will become the new "last good raid" or something stupid like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelliak View Post
    You're now blocked. Told you I was done with you. You want to pick fights over minute details as if this is the fucking presidential debate on a gaming forum.
    Enjoy.

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by Prothall View Post
    Why would anybody pay to play a game that's too difficult to win in this day and age? Maybe once or twice, for the challenge. But I'm not going to spend however many bucks a month on something that I get no joy from, when I can spend on things I do enjoy.
    What joy or satisfaction is there in the easily achieved?
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
    GC is complaining about a dumbed down game he dumbed down?

    That's level 100 irony right there.
    Ghostcrawler wasn't 100% in charge of anything. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he wasn't even 5% in charge of anything in the game. Everything has to go through a team, and when they sit down and have their board meeting, and Mike Morhaime tells them all that the game has to be accessible to all players, then their design concepts have to mold into whatever he wants the game to be.

    Ghostcrawler probably very much so wanted WoW to be much harder or more complex than it is, but was likely restrained by what the company wanted or needed as a whole. He worked for the company, not the other way around.

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