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  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    So, kids.... if casual = more successful, riddle me this.

    WoW has become more and more casual since early Wrath (LFR/LFD, no elites on the world, etc)...


    And the game has lost 5 million subs since then. SO, what was it about 'easier = more popular' again? Or maybe, just maybe, that's wrong. Not that any of you will admit it.
    WoW began losing subscribers at the exact same age as every other MMO to have ever led the market either here or in Asia. Gosh, what a coincidence. And of course the fact that every game that's tried to bring the hardcore back has been a miserable pathetic failure means nothing, right? Yawn.

  2. #762
    There's a difference between a casual and someone who wants stupid faceroll lala hello kitty gameplay. A game doesn't have to be hardcore to not be so pathetically easy as WoW has become.

    Keep defending this stupid gameplay. I just shake my head at all this. The casuals say games are fun and why do you care how others play? The moment the game takes on that attitude it loses integrity. It goes from PC gaming to Wii bowling. No integrity, no depth, no real thought required. Just stupid mindless fun that lasts about 30 minutes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zagnut View Post
    WoW began losing subscribers at the exact same age as every other MMO to have ever led the market either here or in Asia. Gosh, what a coincidence. And of course the fact that every game that's tried to bring the hardcore back has been a miserable pathetic failure means nothing, right? Yawn.
    Actually it began as soon as it went streamlined and watered down. First with LFG and then Cata did it in. LFG was literally the benchmark where the games philosophy switched.
    Last edited by Brandon138; 2014-08-26 at 04:36 AM.

  3. #763
    God riot please come to your senses before this dbag ruins another game.

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    So, kids.... if casual = more successful, riddle me this.

    WoW has become more and more casual since early Wrath (LFR/LFD, no elites on the world, etc)...


    And the game has lost 5 million subs since then. SO, what was it about 'easier = more popular' again? Or maybe, just maybe, that's wrong. Not that any of you will admit it.

    People tend to make personal judgement calls on sub losses, and given the half-assed nature of Blizzards exit survey, they probably don't have the best data they could either. Some will claim that Cata started the big decline specifically because of difficult dungeons. Others will say that it's simply because the game is old. If / when WoD drops subs further, rest assured that people will say it's because of the no-fly thing.

    Universally? I'd say an MMO that is generally considered easy, or at least straightforward to finish at a level your average player finds acceptable, is one that is bound to not retain players for a significant amount of time. And the key here really is 'the average player'.

    This is actually one of the larger problems that this game has right now, and the relatively high number of alts that people have is a very good sign that you have a number of subscribers who thoroughly enjoy this game, but there simply isn't enough for them to do, because so much of the content is quick to consume. For your fringe type of player, the one who needs every achievement, and to beat every aspect the game has to offer, I'd say it's a different story, but that's a small minority.

    Then there are retention factors that have very little to do with the sheer difficulty of the game, such as the in-game community itself and the concept of you being represented by your character, but that's a different topic.
    Last edited by melodramocracy; 2014-08-26 at 04:42 AM.
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  5. #765
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    It makes doing the higher setting pointless for most people. Happy? I like challenging content but I'm not gonna do it just to do it when I've already progressed through it in LFR/Flex.
    So let me get this straight. Having the best gear, mounts, and titles in the game isn't enough to sustain organized raiding. No, on top of that it requires absolutely massive amounts of expensive-to-produce exclusive content, vastly out proportion to the relatively small percentage of players that have ever participated in it.

    Am I reading you correctly?

    Explain to me why organized raiding doesn't deserve to die off. Explain to me why something that can suck up all the best rewards in the game AND most of the endgame content budget and STILL never get more than a small minority of players to do it deserves to exist. Explain to me why entertaining that particular minority is supposed to be so all-consumingly important.

  6. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    People tend to make personal judgement calls on sub losses, and given the half-assed nature of Blizzards exit survey, they probably don't have the best data they could either. Some will claim that Cata started the big decline specifically because of difficult dungeons. Others will say that it's simply because the game is old. If / when WoD drops subs further, rest assured that people will say it's because of the no-fly thing.

    Universally? I'd say an MMO that is generally considered easy, or at least straightforward to finish at a level your average player finds acceptable, is one that is bound to not retain players for a significant amount of time. And the key here really is 'the average player'.

    This is actually one of the larger problems that this game has right now, and the relatively high number of alts that people have is a very good sign that you have a number of subscribers who thoroughly enjoy this game, but there simply isn't enough for them to do, because so much of the content is quick to consume. For your fringe type of player, the one who needs every achievement, and to beat every aspect the game has to offer, I'd say it's a different story, but that's a small minority.

    Then there are retention factors that have very little to do with the sheer difficulty of the game, such as the in-game community itself and the concept of you being represented by your character, but that's a different topic.
    It's supposed to be a carrot on a stick game. But we've been sitting here munching on the carrot for a while now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zagnut View Post
    So let me get this straight. Having the best gear, mounts, and titles in the game isn't enough to sustain organized raiding. No, on top of that it requires absolutely massive amounts of expensive-to-produce exclusive content, vastly out proportion to the relatively small percentage of players that have ever participated in it.

    Am I reading you correctly?

    Explain to me why organized raiding doesn't deserve to die off. Explain to me why something that can suck up all the best rewards in the game AND most of the endgame content budget and STILL never get more than a small minority of players to do it deserves to exist. Explain to me why entertaining that particular minority is supposed to be so all-consumingly important.
    You're missing the point. It's not about organized raiding, it's about progression. Which doesn't exist anymore.
    And lol at gear/mounts/titles. Like those matter anymore. Why do I need gear? So I can do the raids I've already done or so I can replace every piece next content patch?
    Last edited by Brandon138; 2014-08-26 at 04:46 AM.

  7. #767
    Bloodsail Admiral Jamyz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    There's a difference between a casual and someone who wants stupid faceroll lala hello kitty gameplay. A game doesn't have to be hardcore to not be so pathetically easy as WoW has become.
    So go play something more challenging? Why keep on hating the gameplay and paying sub? I hear WildStar is wildly popular with its oldschool gameplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Actually it began as soon as it went streamlined and watered down. First with LFG and then Cata did it in. LFG was literally the benchmark where the games philosophy switched.
    Actually it began as soon as it was released. By the time of TBC heydays, WoW had 10M subs, but another 10M had tried and quit. But of course no one is trying to explain why Vanilla/TBC failed so badly and lost 10M subs.
    Last edited by Jamyz; 2014-08-26 at 04:54 AM.

  8. #768
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Actually it began as soon as it went streamlined and watered down. First with LFG and then Cata did it in. LFG was literally the benchmark where the games philosophy switched.
    So let me get this straight. The game's philosophy changes with the introduction of LFD during Wrath, but subscribers stay stable because reasons. Then like a year later, just as the game coincidentally reaches the exact same age every other huge MMO begins aging out, subscribers suddenly start dropping because everyone hates that LFD thing that got added a year ago.

    Oh and that huge difficulty bump at the beginning of Cata? The one that DID come at the exact same subscriptions dropped, and caused gigantic amounts of drama? Of course that had NOTHING to do with anything, because players love difficulty. Rather, subscriptions started dropping because everyone really hated those Wrath changes from a year ago. Or maybe they dropped because of LFR, even though LFR wouldn't come out until a year after the decline had already begun?

    What a joke. How do you people type garbage like this and then act surprised that Blizzard can't see your infinite wisdom?

  9. #769
    Quote Originally Posted by Zagnut View Post
    So let me get this straight. The game's philosophy changes with the introduction of LFD during Wrath, but subscribers stay stable because reasons. Then like a year later, just as the game coincidentally reaches the exact same age every other huge MMO begins aging out, subscribers suddenly start dropping because everyone hates that LFD thing that got added a year ago.

    Oh and that huge difficulty bump at the beginning of Cata? The one that DID come at the exact same subscriptions dropped, and caused gigantic amounts of drama? Of course that had NOTHING to do with anything, because players love difficulty. Rather, subscriptions started dropping because everyone really hated those Wrath changes from a year ago. Or maybe they dropped because of LFR, even though LFR wouldn't come out until a year after the decline had already begun?

    What a joke. How do you people type garbage like this and then act surprised that Blizzard can't see your infinite wisdom?
    Ugh. Why do you people talk about what you don't know? The game has been downhill since the end of Wrath. Cata watered down the whole game, 5 mans were a small factor. And the only problem with raid difficulties was that there wasn't something like flex to make them PuGable.
    You talk like a businessman that isn't actually involved in the game.

    If your points weren't based on your own assumptions you might begin to have an argument. I mean really, subs are hardly an argument for either side. People leave for all different reasons at all different times. They might have gone down the way they did no matter what gameplay was like. What we can do is look at how the game played at different times.

    I mean, if you think this faceroll gameplay is anything other than Blizzard trying to grab as many short term subs as possible in order to milk WoW then I'm sorry you can't see it.
    Last edited by Brandon138; 2014-08-26 at 05:07 AM.

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    You're missing the point. It's not about organized raiding, it's about progression. Which doesn't exist anymore.
    That literally answers absolutely nothing you were asked.

    And lol at gear/mounts/titles. Like those matter anymore. Why do I need gear? So I can do the raids I've already done or so I can replace every piece next content patch?
    So you love "progression" but hate upgrading gear as you defeat a series of increasingly demanding raids over the course of an expansion. Uh huh. By the way, have I ever mentioned how much I love pancakes but hate flapjacks? It sounds like you just don't like WoW anymore if you think having to upgrade gear with every patch is a pain.

  11. #771
    Quote Originally Posted by Zagnut View Post
    That literally answers absolutely nothing you were asked.
    What was I asked?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zagnut View Post

    So you love "progression" but hate upgrading gear as you defeat a series of increasingly demanding raids over the course of an expansion. Uh huh. By the way, have I ever mentioned how much I love pancakes but hate flapjacks? It sounds like you just don't like WoW anymore if you think having to upgrade gear with every patch is a pain.
    WHAT AM I UPGRADING MY GEAR FOR!? There is nowhere to go! There is no progression.

    The way progression works now is similar to putting double a batteries in a device that charges double a batteries.

  12. #772
    Bloodsail Admiral Jamyz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Ugh. Why do you people talk about what you don't know? The game has been downhill since the end of Wrath.
    Downhill for you. Don't expect others to have same taste as you do, I actually hated Wrath and liked Cata a lot (until it was nerfed). Contrary to popular opinion I don't think TBC was better than sliced bread.

    No matter how you look at it, any evidence we have is just purely anecdotal. Only Blizzard has access to the exit questionnaire data and can speculate as to why people are quitting. But I bet some of the changes since TBC have been based on that data.

  13. #773
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    I mean really, subs are hardly an argument for either side.
    That's weird, you seemed to think they were an argument for YOUR side like three posts ago.

    Hint: This is called "losing an argument".

    Really fucks up the typical hardcore dipshit narrative when one points out that subs dropped long before anyone heard of LFR, long after the casualization of Wrath, but at the exact same time as a controversial difficulty spike.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    WHAT AM I UPGRADING MY GEAR FOR!?
    BECAUSE THERE IS GOING TO BE ANOTHER RAID THAT REQUIRES BETTER GEAR.

    Jesus Christ, is this hard to understand?
    Last edited by Zagnut; 2014-08-26 at 05:15 AM.

  14. #774
    Btw, I'm technically casual. Which is why trying to argue for/against casual/hardcore is flawed. You don't know what either side wants. I don't play a lot anymore but it doesn't mean I want instant gratification from faceroll content on rails. Raiding is a tiny tiny part of all this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zagnut View Post
    That's weird, you seemed to think they were an argument for YOUR side like three posts ago.

    Hint: This is called "losing an argument".
    Yea and that's why I started that statement with, 'i mean really'.

    Sorry, but this argument is impossible to lose.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zagnut View Post

    BECAUSE THERE IS GOING TO BE ANOTHER RAID THAT REQUIRES BETTER GEAR.

    Jesus Christ, is this hard to understand?
    Jesus, I don't think you know how this game works.
    Last edited by Brandon138; 2014-08-26 at 05:19 AM.

  15. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    I wouldn't say that, exactly.

    I think it's more that they can't do it for one reason or another (intimidated, lack of skill, lack of time..)
    And there seems to be a lot of bitter wannabe raiders who had a bad experience with raiding and condemn it.
    I more or less agree with all of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  16. #776
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Yea and that's why I started that statement with, 'i mean really'.
    What the fuck are you talking about? How the hell does "I mean really" modify the meaning of a sentence at all? You started out wanting to tell me about how the subscriber decline coincided with this-and-that thing you didn't like, but once you got some facts rammed up your ass your tune suddenly changed to how subscribers aren't an argument for anything, and gosh who really knows, blah blah blah.

    But hey, you started the sentence with "I mean really" so... that totally changes everything? I guess? I wonder what would have happened if you'd started the sentence with "dude but like" or "oh yeah well" instead.

    Jesus, I don't think you know how this game works.
    Great comeback bro, I guess people DON'T upgrade their gear to beat the harder raids they know are coming. You sure told me.

    You're really really bad at this.

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    What was I asked?


    WHAT AM I UPGRADING MY GEAR FOR!? There is nowhere to go! There is no progression.

    The way progression works now is similar to putting double a batteries in a device that charges double a batteries.
    Every time you go up a level the monsters get stronger too. Why bother?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    It's supposed to be a carrot on a stick game. But we've been sitting here munching on the carrot for a while now.
    How does the HM Garrosh carrot taste?

    It's really a series of little carrots on sticks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  18. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    I wouldn't say that, exactly.

    I think it's more that they can't do it for one reason or another (intimidated, lack of skill, lack of time..)
    And there seems to be a lot of bitter wannabe raiders who had a bad experience with raiding and condemn it.
    "Uh oh, the fact that the majority of WoW players never raided at all is hurting my worldview that raiding is the most important thing in the world! Time to indulge in some good old fashioned fantasy about how people totally cared about it even though they never did it. That gives it value, right? Ahh, there, my butt hurts much less now."

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post



    How does the HM Garrosh carrot taste?

    It's really a series of little carrots on sticks.
    I wouldn't know, I'm already full.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zagnut View Post
    "Uh oh, the fact that the majority of WoW players never raided at all is hurting my worldview that raiding is the most important thing in the world! Time to indulge in some good old fashioned fantasy about how people totally cared about it even though they never did it. That gives it value, right? Ahh, there, my butt hurts much less now."
    Yea that's totally why PuGs were(and still are) constantly going in BC/Wrath.

    Why don't you talk about the actual casualization of the game not just raiding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zagnut View Post
    What the fuck are you talking about? How the hell does "I mean really" modify the meaning of a sentence at all? You started out wanting to tell me about how the subscriber decline coincided with this-and-that thing you didn't like, but once you got some facts rammed up your ass your tune suddenly changed to how subscribers aren't an argument for anything, and gosh who really knows, blah blah blah.

    But hey, you started the sentence with "I mean really" so... that totally changes everything? I guess? I wonder what would have happened if you'd started the sentence with "dude but like" or "oh yeah well" instead.



    Great comeback bro, I guess people DON'T upgrade their gear to beat the harder raids they know are coming. You sure told me.

    You're really really bad at this.
    lol just stop, you're trying to make something out of nothing.
    Last edited by Brandon138; 2014-08-26 at 05:38 AM.

  20. #780
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    People tend to make personal judgement calls on sub losses, and given the half-assed nature of Blizzards exit survey, they probably don't have the best data they could either. Some will claim that Cata started the big decline specifically because of difficult dungeons. Others will say that it's simply because the game is old. If / when WoD drops subs further, rest assured that people will say it's because of the no-fly thing.
    If anyone has ever played old 8-bit Nintendo games, then there's a good chance you haven't beaten many of them. I remember playing Ninja Gaiden and loved the game, but never beat it as a kid. Came back as an adult and beat it, but my opinion of the game was never negative. Many games that were hard I loved, but never could finish them.

    This is actually one of the larger problems that this game has right now, and the relatively high number of alts that people have is a very good sign that you have a number of subscribers who thoroughly enjoy this game, but there simply isn't enough for them to do, because so much of the content is quick to consume. For your fringe type of player, the one who needs every achievement, and to beat every aspect the game has to offer, I'd say it's a different story, but that's a small minority.
    The problem with this is that old content is considered irrelevant once new content is introduced. And as returning players it pisses them off to no end cause they can't enjoy it unless you go into LFR. This wasn't a problem in vanilla WoW, as new or returning players would have no problems experiencing MC, AQ40, and BWL. That's because gear in those older dungeons never became irrelevant. That's because of two reasons. One being the presence of resistance stats in all gear. This made it harder for new gear to flat out destroy older gear. So raiders doing AQ40 wouldn't have a problem going back and visiting MC or BWL. Secondly the resist stats were needed to progress, and usually you had to go one or two dungeons back to farm the gear.

    You can see developers trying to return to this by introducing Minor stats. Survival stats that take up stats but don't add any damage or healing output. Though the devs may have wanted to use these stats as a way to get players to farm for more gear than to slow down the rate at which players power increases with their characters.
    Then there are retention factors that have very little to do with the sheer difficulty of the game, such as the in-game community itself and the concept of you being represented by your character, but that's a different topic.
    The toxicity of the community is purely due to anonymity. Since raiding with friends or a guild isn't required, so too is manners. Remember, Blizzard tried to fix this by showing your real name to players in game, and that wasn't very popular. Things like LFR, LFG, and CRZ are a major cause of these problems. Take them away and suddenly a players reputation matters in the game.
    Last edited by Dukenukemx; 2014-08-26 at 05:38 AM.

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