RNG in Dota 2

[Deletedaccount1]

I want to create a topic discussing how RNG affects Dota in both the competitive scene and in pubs.

I recently played a game as Luna, http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/843660988

Although we won, I went back and took a closer look at the game and realized how luckily and unfairly we had won.

Kills were neck and neck for the first 4 minutes, however my friend on Invoker had essentially won us the game by getting 5 runes in the order of DD, Haste, DD, Haste and DD at the bot rune at 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12. He was able to gank the radiant safelane so many times uncontested that the game was decided before the midgame even happened.

Now I want to go over why this was complete luck, my friend was joking around all game and didn't feel like doing very much CSing in lane so he camped that rune spawn, not caring if the rune was there or not. And every single time, he was correct. The rune was warded but my friend camped it in ghostwalk so observers were useless. Granted the enemy safelane and midlane would try to stop him and contest the runes but their was really nothing they could do aside from either abandon 2 lanes or be constantly carrying TPs in order to escape but they could not have possibly known he could get so lucky until it was too late.

Now I know this is rare and in a pro game he could never have gotten away with this but it seems really dumb to me that we can win just because my friend was a lucky piece of shit 5 times in a row. I posted the video above because despite it being old, is still very accurate in how it describes how randomness creates a lot of flaws in Dota. I don't want this to seem like a blog, so I will pose the question,

Do you think that Dota 2 is compromised competitively by its RNG elements and has RNG personally affected your experience playing at all?

In the video, Rune RNG is discussed starting at 3:59 but I'd watch the whole thing if you have time, its really a good video.

[minteK917]

I want to create a topic discussing how RNG affects Dota in both the competitive scene and in pubs.

I recently played a game as Luna, http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/843660988

Although we won, I went back and took a closer look at the game and realized how luckily and unfairly we had won.

Kills were neck and neck for the first 4 minutes, however my friend on Invoker had essentially won us the game by getting 5 runes in the order of DD, Haste, DD, Haste and DD at the bot rune at 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12. He was able to gank the radiant safelane so many times uncontested that the game was decided before the midgame even happened.

Now I want to go over why this was complete luck, my friend was joking around all game and didn't feel like doing very much CSing in lane so he camped that rune spawn, not caring if the rune was there or not. And every single time, he was correct. The rune was warded but my friend camped it in ghostwalk so observers were useless. Granted the enemy safelane and midlane would try to stop him and contest the runes but their was really nothing they could do aside from either abandon 2 lanes or be constantly carrying TPs in order to escape but they could not have possibly known he could get so lucky until it was too late.

Now I know this is rare and in a pro game he could never have gotten away with this but it seems really dumb to me that we can win just because my friend was a lucky piece of shit 5 times in a row. I posted the video above because despite it being old, is still very accurate in how it describes how randomness creates a lot of flaws in Dota. I don't want this to seem like a blog, so I will pose the question,

Do you think that Dota 2 is compromised competitively by its RNG elements and has RNG personally affected your experience playing at all?

In the video, Rune RNG is discussed starting at 3:59 but I'd watch the whole thing if you have time, its really a good video.

Rune spawns at every 2 minutes, if they dont contest them to at least deny. Can only blame themsleves if they never got a sentry by the runes, considering invoker ghost walk even warns them hes there.

[Deleted]

I think you can a lot away from the game without RNG, but it would be stupid to say that RNG doesn't have massive impacts on the game.

A random crit in a team fight and suddenly you've got from about to die to killing the other carry and winning the game ( an extreme example but it has happened in my games a few times. It even changes how you last hit on certain, for example Chaos knight, do you risk going for max damage or do you wait till the creep has low HP and risk a deny ?

There are a few other elements of RNG, such as runes like you said that can change the game completely. I have had games as Pudge where I am losing mid, getting pushed back to my tower and getting 0 last hits only to pick up a haste and get a double kill or an invis and kill mid.


Certainly it changes a pub game in a huge way (or it does sometimes), can't really talk about high level play as I only really watch the international and RNG didn't seem to affect many games too much.

[Deletedaccount1]

Rune spawns at every 2 minutes, if they dont contest them to at least deny. Can only blame themsleves if they never got a sentry by the runes, considering invoker ghost walk even warns them hes there.

Yeah you're completely right and that's what I meant by what happened would never happen in a pro game but the very fact that the runes spawned towards the radiant safelane that many times only favors the Dire midlaner even if he isn't going for runes since it severely limits the amount of ganking that the Radiant midlaner can do.

I think even in the most controlled scenario, this still lends a Dire advantage (Or a Radiant one assuming the opposite happened) and this is entirely due to RNG which makes me concerned for how fair the game is.

[LiiLoSNK]

The only true RNG in dota is determining how many regular attacks it takes to kill a cliff ward from the low ground.

Getting 4x multicasted or backtracked 9 times in a row is just plain being outskilled.

[Longview]

i have a couple of issues with the video you posted

i guess i disagree on multiple levels, but for me the random elements is what makes dota exciting. he talks about randomized hero damage as a pointless mechanic, but doesn't mention damage deadzones or how it is possible for a hero which is behind to get creepkills with luck, even when behind in damage. small things like these give dota a depth not matched by many games.

i dont understand how he thinks randomized spawns are bad or what possible strategic possibilities he thinks exists in knowing what type of ancient spawn is next.

most of his approaches (or proposed fixes) seem equally pointless and lowers the skill ceiling. he doesn't think warding and counter-warding takes any skill, and instead proposes having wards being visible (and only killable by support players?), because that will give you exact information about what your enemy knows. which i think is boring.

a lot of his points are more out there than some stuff i read on here, my impression is that he would need a couple of hundred more hours under his belt. it is an old video, perhaps he has changed his mind about some of it?

i do not view most of the random elements in dota as "flaws". this game is not go or chess or quake or starcraft 2, and it doesn't need to be. a lot of the skill in dota is being aware of the random elements, and using them to your advantage.

of course i have lost lanes over rng. i have survived a lot of ganks through rng. sometimes you get lucky kills. that's dota.

[veiledy0]

Legend says that only the most skilled Sniper players can pull this off.

[Charge me Doctor]

It's not RNG that won you game, but Invoker who used advantage he got from RNG, while enemy did nothing to contest said advantage. Yes, RNG affects the game, yes if you are skilled and can use this RNG for your advantage you can win games, but if your enemy is equally skilled he won't allow you to do that. If PA who jumped on you and landed 3 crits in a row while you sit under tower with full health you blame RNG? Yes, but in 99% of times she would be dead if she did so, she got lucky, she get small advantage with HUGE possibility of failing horribly. Usually people don't do that. And usually things like these don't happen. You have to count on RNG elements, but you also have to remember that they can fail you, and if you see enemy running away from you and you think "heck, if i bash, i can kill him, but his teammates are coming and i don't have an escape so if i don't bash he lives and i die", you make a decision and put you luck over your skill.

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Legend says that only the most skilled Sniper players can pull this off.

Fun rng no one misses it from being removed. Also, rip troll warlord permabash. All people who complain about permabash in dota 2 should be burned

[Keldarin]

Legend says that only the most skilled Sniper players can pull this off.

Looking at the youtube comments (which were surprisingly civil and intelligent), I know really want to see a AD Bloodseeker with Thirst and racecarbuild with the SpiritBreaker bash and movespeed passives. I wonder how painful his bashes will be, given that a Bloodseeker can get upwards of 900 ms if the enemy team is below 50%.

[PizzaSHARK]

RNG has no place in competitive games, honestly, but Dota is still RPG-like in a lot of ways and RPGs compensate for their lower level of player skill involvement through RNG mechanics.

It's not like Counter-Strike where all guns have set spread patterns and memorizing and manipulating them is a major element of player interaction. There's no way to aim or position yourself in such a way that your swing becomes a bash in Dota, so they just leave it up to a dice roll.

I'd love to see RNG removed from DotA entirely, but that would require such a massive rework all up and down the game that the end result wouldn't even be DotA anymore.

[Rucati]

it seems really dumb to me that we can win just because my friend was a lucky piece of shit 5 times in a row.

I don't really see how you won simply because of that. Why didn't the enemy team TP in bot lane when the gank started, why didn't the enemy bot team TP out, why didn't the enemy mid laner either push through mid or gank top at the same time, why did the other team not buy wards to avoid the ganks? Even if your friend was in ghostwalk, they'd still see him pick up the rune, especially if he had already gotten them the previous 4 times. There's tons of things the enemy team didn't do.

On top of that your team was still successful in a lot of ways. You as Luna had 130 more CS than anyone on the other team, that isn't because your friend got lucky 5 times in a row, there's no reason you should be up 110 CS on Tinker, regardless of ganks. On top of that the enemy team's item builds weren't that good, rushing Agh's on Bane when you're behind against a team that all has interrupts? Yup, that's a surefire way to be useless.

Was your friend lucky in getting the runes bot? Of course. Was that the only reason you won the game? No, not at all. Could the enemy team have stopped the ganks bot? Yes absolutely.

There's a lot of RNG in DotA, sure, and sometimes it is game changing like getting a string of crits/bashes/dodges in a fight, or Faceless Void rewinding three ultimates or something, but rune RNG really isn't that hard to play around.

[Keldarin]

I agree with most professional Ogre Magi players and say that luck is a factor of skill. And a completely skillbased game should have some small elements of luck.
Everything becomes cut and dry pretty quickly if you remove all luckbased factors. "This team is the mechanically better team, so they will win."

[Notshauna]

I agree with most professional Ogre Magi players and say that luck is a factor of skill. And a completely skillbased game should have some small elements of luck.
Everything becomes cut and dry pretty quickly if you remove all luckbased factors. "This team is the mechanically better team, so they will win."

There is also players who make better decisions as well, but, I suppose my issues with randomness in DotA is that they make little to not effort to reduce it. Riot does on many occasions removing the dodge mechanic completely for the sake of reducing randomness (it was never very important anyways). There are some ways DotA reduces it though, with pseduo-random distribution, and monkey king bar to name a few but, I'd be lying if I haven't seen team fights won and lost in competitive DotA due to luck. I once took a lot of a harder line in terms of luck, but since getting into magic and following it competitively I recognize that it's very possible to have a game that relies heavily on luck and still have a balanced experience for those involved (not that there are games where you get extraordinarily unlucky or lucky but the fast game time and best of three series balances that out a lot).

[Itase]

Runes are fair , both players need to decide if they are gonna go and get that rune and thus getting rewarded.
There are ofc. many other factors like wards,having your support getting runes,bottle crowing etc.

I used to play DotA since WC3 days and this was always questioned (rune RNG) and how DD rune was auto win for your lane if you manage to get it , witch sometimes is.

What i would like DotA2 to have is , even tho it will never happen is to REMOVE completely bottle crowing and use same system that Heroes of Newerth use and that is new rune called "refreshment rune" its basically 2 charges of bottle, and it spawns opposite side of main rune , so if you fail to get rune , at least you get some HP/Mana back , i think this is more balanced then getting nothing and the other player getting haste/DD, and its the main reason you will see many players just bottle crowing instead even trying to go for rune.

[Deletedaccount1]

i have a couple of issues with the video you posted

i guess i disagree on multiple levels, but for me the random elements is what makes dota exciting. he talks about randomized hero damage as a pointless mechanic, but doesn't mention damage deadzones or how it is possible for a hero which is behind to get creepkills with luck, even when behind in damage. small things like these give dota a depth not matched by many games.

i dont understand how he thinks randomized spawns are bad or what possible strategic possibilities he thinks exists in knowing what type of ancient spawn is next.

most of his approaches (or proposed fixes) seem equally pointless and lowers the skill ceiling. he doesn't think warding and counter-warding takes any skill, and instead proposes having wards being visible (and only killable by support players?), because that will give you exact information about what your enemy knows. which i think is boring.

a lot of his points are more out there than some stuff i read on here, my impression is that he would need a couple of hundred more hours under his belt. it is an old video, perhaps he has changed his mind about some of it?

i do not view most of the random elements in dota as "flaws". this game is not go or chess or quake or starcraft 2, and it doesn't need to be. a lot of the skill in dota is being aware of the random elements, and using them to your advantage.

of course i have lost lanes over rng. i have survived a lot of ganks through rng. sometimes you get lucky kills. that's dota.

It might make it exciting but its very cheap and at a pro level do we really know who the best players always are? Since situations have such drastic knock on effects is it fair to say that a tournament champion really is the best? Or are they only the best in that controlled circumstance?

By camp spawns he means a jungler can either be set back by a lot of bad creep spawns (Ones like golems or centaurs) or easy to kill ones that level him up after and can be effected by the jungler's abilities. He means that the entire role is essentially a gamble because you can either have a good jungle, a balanced one or a bad one there is no guarantee which is bad for competitive play.

[LiiLoSNK]

Aren't they aware of that risk when they pick the jungler? I mean there's nothing forcing people to pick Chen/Ench, yet they do because the slight risk in "camp luck" can add a big payoff. Not sure how this can be "bad for competitive play", if it's not something all teams are forced to do.

[Deletedaccount1]

Aren't they aware of that risk when they pick the jungler? I mean there's nothing forcing people to pick Chen/Ench, yet they do because the slight risk in "camp luck" can add a big payoff. Not sure how this can be "bad for competitive play", if it's not something all teams are forced to do.

There are more than two junglers in Dota, I don't think I need to tell you that and I'm not sure why you think camps only matter for Chen and Ench. The type of camp you get also effects Naix, Ursa, Lycan, LD, Enigma, Dark Seer and Furion to a lesser extent (Probably more that I can't think of).

The fact that the risk exists alone is a problem. In the video, Matthew says Dota 2's design philosophy is "bolting new things on instead of refining them" and it really shows here.

When you consider all the heroes that random creep spawns can effect it starts to be an issue of competitive play because it begins to tap into the hero pool. And sure, no one is forced to play those heroes in those positions but that seems more like an excuse along the lines of "well sure it's shitty and makes no sense but lets not fix it anyway".

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I agree with most professional Ogre Magi players and say that luck is a factor of skill. And a completely skillbased game should have some small elements of luck.
Everything becomes cut and dry pretty quickly if you remove all luckbased factors. "This team is the mechanically better team, so they will win."

I fail to see your logic here, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. It seems like a lot of you are defending the current game mechanics just for the sake of it. I like Dota and have almost 1000 hours logged over the past year and half but I really don't understand how luck and randomness can be defended in a game that rewards millions of dollars in prize money.

I really don't think removing RNG would have any effect on the game in a negative way. I came off of Starcraft 2 before I started Dota 2 and that game was (and is) great and only had 1 RNG element that I can think of (The side of a building that an SCV will spawn on after building a structure) and that is incredibly, incredibly minor.

One other important thing Matthew says is that things like the SCV are incredibly insignificant risks since they are not worth much in the overall game but acceptable risks are harder to come by in Dota since every decision a player makes is potentially life or death or a loss of gold or xp.

[LiiLoSNK]

I wouldn't try to mention PRO GAMES if you're gonna start talking about stuff that doesn't happen in pro games. Since when do any of those heroes jungle in pro games? Never? Ok. Now let's talk about pubs. If jungle luck is affecting any of those heroes you mentioned, you aren't jungling properly (lol dark seer jungle). The only way I kind of see where you're coming from is when talking chen/enchantress, because in both pro games and pubs, their strats change much more than the heroes you mentioned based on this jungle RNG.

If someone beats me to a DD rune, I don't cry, because I could've beat him to the rune if I felt like taking such a gamble and leaving early. Taking risks is a part of dota. That being said, listening to other people like yourself complain about dota, is also a part of dota. A big part. So enjoy.

[Longview]

It might make it exciting but its very cheap and at a pro level do we really know who the best players always are? Since situations have such drastic knock on effects is it fair to say that a tournament champion really is the best? Or are they only the best in that controlled circumstance?

By camp spawns he means a jungler can either be set back by a lot of bad creep spawns (Ones like golems or centaurs) or easy to kill ones that level him up after and can be effected by the jungler's abilities. He means that the entire role is essentially a gamble because you can either have a good jungle, a balanced one or a bad one there is no guarantee which is bad for competitive play.

the RNG is not that big of a gamechanger. the better team will come out ahead almost always.

i have played a lot of jungle, and it is incredibly rare to get gimped by spawns. you will be able to set a time for X item and be within 30 seconds every time.

[Deleted]

All i heard during that vid was: Whinge Whinge Whinge. As someone who has played dota for quite a few years now i haven't had any issues with a little bit of RNG every now and then. A bit of luck only adds to the game and makes it that much more exciting to play.