Has the overall opinion of 'heroes' changed in the last 25 years?

[Trassk]

Speaking as someone who grew up on the comic books, saturday morning cartoons and movies, all aimed at things like comic book heroes to ninja turtles to thundercats to superman and batman and x-men and all that, when I was young I use to be drawn to these characters, because at the end of the day the fundamental basis of their character were that they were heroes, doing the right thing, never stepping out of line from there moral code and beating up anyone who threatened that code.

You have guys like superman beating up bank robbers or multinational heads of organizations because they do questionable things, or batman who will NEVER kill someone because of how his parents died, so he will never kill any of his supervillains, even ones that will never be redeemed like the joker. These whole ethos of how heroic characters do the right thing, don't kill, don't steal, don't go above the law, and always stop those who do is what I grew up on since I was a kid.

however, in the last decade my whole outlook on heroic deeds in comics and movies and tv has shifted a fair bit since those times, and while there will always be a part of me that will love these heroic characters, I find it hard to take them as serious mediums now as what I did years ago. What I read now, see on tv and in films, are fictional characters who have a darker edge to them, and not just for looking, I notice this theme seems to have become stronger in the last decade to what it was in the 80s-90s.

One of my favorite comic book series in the last decade has been the authority, where the 'heroes' in these comics don't split hairs, they don't hold to a spotless moral code of coduct like superman or batman, they outright kill their enemies in the most brutal way possible, and when the next enemy comes along, they kill them to. Infact in the comics the characters get involved in international affairs and kill dictators in other countries and slaughter their followers because they can.
You take it from tv shows too, shows like Dexter where he's a serial killer, but your rooting for him to kill because of how he does it, or games like god of war with kratos butchering anything in his path or lords of shadows where instead of fighting against dracula as simon belmont, you ARE dracula, drinking blood and making bodies explode.

I'm comparing how heroes in fictional media has changed from 20-25 years ago, to what people enjoy to see more nowadays. Is there a more darker tone in what we perceive as likable traits in 'heroes' now? I personally think something changed in that time where its become more acceptable to have darker heroes as the standard in fictional mediums then your white washed heroes like captain american or superman. Infact I think they even try to make these white washed heroes darker because of the times we live in, looking at the last superman movie and what he did at the end of it.

I think also thats why films like guardians of the galaxy worked so well, because of the changed opinion of the time and why it might have been a little more controversial 20 years ago, swearing, drinking, killing, things you'd not expect from comic book heroes mainstream back then, where as now its more acceptable.

[Feali]

People like a good rounded character with flaws, problems of his own, edges and everyone likes a good redeem story. Character development in the stage it is in right now is an idea of the last 25 years.

[ItachiZaku]

My 3 favorite movies for the longest time were:
The Crow
Braveheart
Blade

Aliens has since moved into that list, but that original 3 are all basically hero tales with a lot of killing and definitely not the "always do the right thing" types. They don't kill innocents, but they certainly kill the shit out of shit. That's one thing that's always annoyed me about Batman.

I don't think modern USA has much of a moral compass as it used to, so we've shifted to more of an anti-hero type of icon to root for. Sure, we still have the Captain America's out there, but most people seem to enjoy the Tony Starks and Peter Quills (can you believe GotG is about to beat out CA for the year?). Once in awhile, people will love that wholesome type, but that's just not real anymore. And although many of us go to movies to get away from real life (which is why i like Mike Bay movies), we sometimes still want to believe the everyman or the actual good person can be a hero.

I just want mine to kill without remorse.

[Tastyfish]

I think 2 things are going on really. Kid oriented shows are much more idealistically driven, as we get older, it becomes less, entertaining cause we have a greater sense of reality and heroes like superman, who are monoliths and ethically driven are less appealing then lets say, someone willing to do dirty things to get shit done.
As companies realized the selling power of Superheroes to a more mature viewership we have seen an evolution from, doing what is rite because it's rite, kind of monolithic paragon, kids show, to a more realistic, more empathetic to older people kind of spin on the super hero where they are flawed, they make mistakes...

[Trassk]

Yeah, you could actually write a book on the evolution of how superheroes have changed over the years from as early as the 60s to present day, as the world itself has evolved and opinion, so to are super heroes with their idealistic approach.

Its like comparing how a character like superman is seen in the 1960s:



You know, idealistic, wholesome, teaching good morals and how to hug care bears..

To, well, this today.

(Warning, spoilers)

http://alfa.gifs-planet.com/new3/1523.gif

Although people considered the ending completely out of character, it did highlight the changing face of the times, that if superman didn't kill him in this movie, it would have been considered weak by todays system of belief in superheroes not doing enough as compared to the real world. A world where by we do kill terrorist leaders to the sanctity of peace.

[Stormcall]

however, in the last decade my whole outlook on heroic deeds in comics and movies and tv has shifted a fair bit since those times, and while there will always be a part of me that will love these heroic characters, I find it hard to take them as serious mediums now as what I did years ago. What I read now, see on tv and in films, are fictional characters who have a darker edge to them, and not just for looking, I notice this theme seems to have become stronger in the last decade to what it was in the 80s-90s.

Guessing you missed, like, the entirety of Image Comics in the 90's? They had TONS of heroes who were perfectly willing to kill. Some of them, such as Grifter and Deathblow(from Image's Wildstorm line) were actually government black ops killers BEFORE they got their powers. Spawn was another Image character that was willing to kill, and there were many others(I know DC owns the Wildstorm stuff now, but I dunno how much the characters have changed if at all). There was also stuff like Matt Wagner's Grendel series, The Crow, DC's Vertigo lineup with stuff like Preacher...okay, so the regular DC universe and Marvel mostly held back(aside from a couple exceptions, like Punisher and Venom during his "so popular I got my own comic and became a good guy" phase), but really, the whole edgy and darker anti-hero/ruthless killer hero took actually off huge in the 90's. In the early 2000's there seemed to be burnout on the whole "edge hero" thing and stuff started going back more to the classic heroes(possibly spurred on by the success of the X-Men and Spider-man movies).

[Herecius]

The overall concept and opinions of heroes havn't changed much in 2000 years, let alone 20.

[Trassk]

Guessing you missed, like, the entirety of Image Comics in the 90's? They had TONS of heroes who were perfectly willing to kill. Some of them, such as Grifter and Deathblow(from Image's Wildstorm line) were actually government black ops killers BEFORE they got their powers. Spawn was another Image character that was willing to kill, and there were many others(I know DC owns the Wildstorm stuff now, but I dunno how much the characters have changed if at all). There was also stuff like Matt Wagner's Grendel series, The Crow, DC's Vertigo lineup with stuff like Preacher...okay, so the regular DC universe and Marvel mostly held back(aside from a couple exceptions, like Punisher and Venom during his "so popular I got my own comic and became a good guy" phase), but really, the whole edgy and darker anti-hero/ruthless killer hero took actually off huge in the 90's. In the early 2000's there seemed to be burnout on the whole "edge hero" thing and stuff started going back more to the classic heroes(possibly spurred on by the success of the X-Men and Spider-man movies).

yes yes those are all known, but just how mainstream are they compared to others? Within image comics they have fans, but outside of that how popular are they in terms of reaching?
Perhaps there was more of a growth in it around the 90s, but I wasn't as aware of it as I am now with a lot of mediums in movies, comics and tv, the comics you mantioned were very much off to the side of the mainstay comics everyone knows, kind of like how the horror genre has always had its own little area. Its just that nowadays, even the mainstream comic book heroes have been a lot darker then they were 20 years ago, almost on par with these more edgy, darker comic book characters.

[Stormcall]

yes yes those are all known, but just how mainstream are they compared to others? Within image comics they have fans, but outside of that how popular are they in terms of reaching?

How popular were they?
"The first Image comic books to arrive in stores were Liefeld's Youngblood, Larsen's The Savage Dragon, McFarlane's Spawn, and Lee's WildC.A.T.s. Propelled by the artists' popularity and the eagerness of comic book collectors to get in on the "next big thing", these series sold in numbers that no publisher other than Marvel, DC, or Valiant Comics had achieved since the market's decline in the 1970s. Within a few months, the Image titles' success led to Malibu having almost 10% of the North American comics market share,[8] briefly exceeding that of industry giant DC Comics.[9] By the beginning of 1993, Image's financial situation was secure enough to publish its titles independently, and it left Malibu. By the mid-1990s Image series such as Spawn and The Savage Dragon had proven themselves as lasting successes (the former frequently topping the sales charts for months in which new issues came out), while new series such as Wildstorm's Gen¹³, and Top Cow's Witchblade and The Darkness were also successful. Image had become the third-largest comics publisher in North America, exceeded only by long-established industry leaders Marvel and DC Comics"

During the 90's, comics like Spawn and WildCATS were selling better than many Marvel and DC titles and Spawn was even made into a (crappy) theatrical movie long before the current crop of comic book movies came out.

Now, if you mean "mainstream" recognition, rather than "comics fan" recognition, well, prior to the movies, Iron Man, Thor, Blade, and CERTAINLY Guardians of the Galaxy didn't have mainstream recognition either(in fact, prior to the current movies, you'd probably find more mainstream people who were familiar with Spawn than you would people who had a clue about GotG).

[Halicia]

Its easier to relate to someone that is flawed and human and lives in the "grey area" rather than some impossible ideal of righteousness.

That being said, antiheroes being popular in mainstream media isn't really anything new...

Taxi Driver, Death Wish, Dirty Harry, Hard to Kill

V for Vendetta, Man on Fire, Boondock Saints for more recent ones.

And those are just a few vigilante movies.

Yeah, they aren't all 'comic book heroes', but the differences in genres are less meaningful nowadays, so if there's more 'morally questionable comic book antiheroes' in mainstream, its because comic book heroes (and scifi/fantasy) has become more mainstream, so has adopted more of the morally ambiguous facets of these movies.

[Powerogue]

Part of it is getting older. They tend to reel back the optimism on the superheroes as they aim for older audiences. You're not going to see Word Girl snapping the main villain's neck.

[Revik]

Its easier to relate to someone that is flawed and human and lives in the "grey area" rather than some impossible ideal of righteousness.

That being said, antiheroes being popular in mainstream media isn't really anything new...

Taxi Driver, Death Wish, Dirty Harry, Hard to Kill

V for Vendetta, Man on Fire, Boondock Saints for more recent ones.

And those are just a few vigilante movies.

Yeah, they aren't all 'comic book heroes', but the differences in genres are less meaningful nowadays, so if there's more 'morally questionable comic book antiheroes' in mainstream, its because comic book heroes (and scifi/fantasy) has become more mainstream, so has adopted more of the morally ambiguous facets of these movies.

This is basically what I was going to put down. This is all nothing new. In fact if you have watched Magnum Force (Dirty Harry movie) I believe it covers exactly the material you are talking about. Anti-heroes just killing as they see fit but a man has got to know his limitations.

[Deleted]

I think heroes have gotten more realistic. Humans, even really good humans are flawed individuals, every single one of us. It's harder to relate to some morally flawless paragon. The current trend of anti heroes is a result of our flaws being writ large.

[Shinzai]

The only real difference is that the all-American, clean-cut super heroes have been played out now. They've had so many iterations, so many variations and repeated reinventions that people just aren't as interested any more. You can only have so many similar such characters before people lose interest. What qualities would you insert into a flawless hero now, to make them compelling?

[ProphetFlume]

Part of it is getting older. They tend to reel back the optimism on the superheroes as they aim for older audiences. You're not going to see Word Girl snapping the main villain's neck.

I'm reminded of a note George Lucas wrote during the first Star Wars trilogy. Paraphrasing, he said that the villain should have what he wants to do to the heroes done back at him, because kids are firm believers in justice, even if justice means killing. And that it's only when we're older and more in control of things that we learn mercy. I remember as a kid always being annoyed when they saved someone clearly beyond saving. I don't think killing in a story is a problem for children or something we grow into, quite the opposite. As we get older we understand the crossed line and moral issues that come with it.

But sometimes I'm tired of getting a forced excuse that doesn't really mesh with the plot for why someone won't kill in any situation and just want to see Spider-Man snap Green Goblin's neck, toss him in an incinerator, empty the ashes into a river then hurl the river into space.

[Halicia]

I'm reminded of a note George Lucas wrote during the first Star Wars trilogy. Paraphrasing, he said that the villain should have what he wants to do to the heroes done back at him, because kids are firm believers in justice, even if justice means killing. And that it's only when we're older and more in control of things that we learn mercy. I remember as a kid always being annoyed when they saved someone clearly beyond saving. I don't think killing in a story is a problem for children or something we grow into, quite the opposite. As we get older we understand the crossed line and moral issues that come with it.

But sometimes I'm tired of getting a forced excuse that doesn't really mesh with the plot for why someone won't kill in any situation and just want to see Spider-Man snap Green Goblin's neck, toss him in an incinerator, empty the ashes into a river then hurl the river into space.

Reminds me of Rectify, although thats the furthest thing from this topic. =)