Celestalon insight about rogues (not mentioned in mmo-champion blue posts)

[Feali]

You people are complaining like rogues are broken and unplayable.

When in reality the ONLY problem with rogue besides SR scaling poorly and DFA being CCable is:

Our talent and Glyph choices are so damn bland I had more choices in MoP than I do in WoD. That's seriously saying something...

Reading comprehension isn't one of your better skills it seems.
It's not about being broken or unplayable. It's about being stale, ignored and having bugs that while not gamebreaking are seriously annoying.

[Miko]

A major problem is new players playing Rogues for the first time in beta. Rogues 100% have a good theme, a great resource, do a lot of dmg, and have 3 viable specs. However once you actually understand all your "themed abilities are taken away(disarm trap) or given to other classes(some improved on), the resource that you have matters very little, or is broken/bugged, the dmg we do is mostly passive so you're not playing your class the cpu is, and the 3 viable specs are mostly the same spec with a different icon.

The only thing I can think of is that blizzard is really scared of making Rogue game play complex, too flashy. As it is now a skilled Rogue in pve or pvp "looks" flashy looks cool, preforms well and just seems OP to players that don't understand whats happening. (This Rogue did 600k to jug111oneone, or This Rogue killed me in a stun!!one) now seeing the externals from other classes or bad game play for the poor soul that died. They didn't see the Rogue really didn't need to do very much as his melee and poisons did all the work.

P.S. The lvl 100 talents

Shadow Reflection: Will always be trash because its a talent asking to become op due to the skilled players that would use it if it did anything remotely decent.
Venom Zest: Is passive dps only, its mindless. Why didn't they just give us new fun poisons instead.
DFA: Should be faster and do way more dmg, maybe usable only in exe: range or something. It's just a trap as it sits and we have enough of those.

- - - Updated - - -

You people are complaining like rogues are broken and unplayable.

When in reality the ONLY problem with rogue besides SR scaling poorly and DFA being CCable is:

Our talent and Glyph choices are so damn bland I had more choices in MoP than I do in WoD. That's seriously saying something...

They most defiantly are playable and viable and will hold a raid spot, but after 10years shouldn't it feel just a little different? I mean assassination (isn't) that bad, I like it, but it feels just like it does now and I guess I am willing to risk everything a Rogue has going for us for the class to just feel more active.

[Willoughby]

The changes to Subtly are interesting, but I don't want to comment because we really won't be able to get a feel for how those changes effect the spec until we reach larger amounts of Multistrike

I went with a mastery-heavy sub spec the other day for raid testing (with MS weapon enchant) and thought it felt pretty bad, TBH. Even with minimum MS, your bleeds advancing by 2 seconds every time you MS is jarring and requires you to really babysit your bleeds even more than you already do.

I can't imagine it'd be very fun in a tier or two, when you'll Eviscerate pretty much never because your Ruptures are falling off so fast.

[Bullettime]

You people are complaining like rogues are broken and unplayable.

When in reality the ONLY problem with rogue besides SR scaling poorly and DFA being CCable is:

Our talent and Glyph choices are so damn bland I had more choices in MoP than I do in WoD. That's seriously saying something...

No one has complained that they're not viable or unplayable. We're complaining that the class is going on yet another expansion with zero excitement factor and the talent grid being a boring pile of garbage with no choice at all.

-Over dependence on auto attacks. Monks and Enhancement are examples of specs that have a solid contribution of their DPS being from autos but still don't feel like an auto attacker. The damage just happens but their actives feel strong and exciting to press. Rogues just feel like you're stabbing something to death and your actives are done just because you need CP. Finishers hit for very little and in the case of Assassination, only serve to make your autos hit harder. When a Shaman throws out Stormstrike, you feel like a fucking boss. It hits hard, it has a cool animation, and if it triggers Windfury you get excited. When Monks throw Blackout Kicks, the big numbers and spin kick are awesome. When Rising Sun goes out, you feel awesome and like you just wrecked your target's face with the big red/white line or a back flip kick. For Rogues, you just feel like you pressed a button for an extra auto attack.

-Talent grid failure. The talents offer basically no choice with each row being your choice of low impact and often passive skill that's predetermined by what area of the game you play in. If you solo, you take X, If you PvP, you take Y. If you raid, you take Z. No choice, no fun.

-Lack of flash and flair. Every one of the specs lacks something that feels awesome to us. Your CP generators feel terrible and have crap animations. Your finishers feel terrible and have crap animations. Only Killing Spree has any excitement factor at all...until it kills you instead of the boss. The final tier of talents in WoD could have addressed this but Venom Zest ends up being a boring passive, Shadow Reflection is bugged all the hell and does not function properly (I guarantee it gets replaced in the following expansion,) and Death from Above is useless for 2/3 specs and looks more goofy than cool despite the potential it had given the description.

-No changes to the base gameplay. Rogues arguably work the best at a mechanical level than any other class which is why they've never been changed. The problem is that lack of change does also lead to stagnation and lead to boredom after awhile. Even if something works, there's only but so long you can do the same thing without change before burnout sets in. Blizzard has given very minor tweaks aimed at the specs but they all still largely share the same playstyle of "auto attack them to death, use 1 for CP, use 2 to dump CP" which leads back to the previously mentioned problem of the active skills being fucking boring and unimpactful so you don't even feel awesome when pressing your buttons.

I went with a mastery-heavy sub spec the other day for raid testing (with MS weapon enchant) and thought it felt pretty bad, TBH. Even with minimum MS, your bleeds advancing by 2 seconds every time you MS is jarring and requires you to really babysit your bleeds even more than you already do.

I can't imagine it'd be very fun in a tier or two, when you'll Eviscerate pretty much never because your Ruptures are falling off so fast.

Tbh, that's largely the point but it'll take people some time getting used to and change the mentality. Eviscerate is basically Ferocious Bite now and Sub is Feral + daggers. If only Rupture had a neat visual or something.

[Willoughby]

Tbh, that's largely the point but it'll take people some time getting used to and change the mentality. Eviscerate is basically Ferocious Bite now and Sub is Feral + daggers. If only Rupture had a neat visual or something.

The problem is, simply advancing your bleeds isn't technically a DPS gain, is it? It'll still tick just as many times per application. Seems like more of a burst thing.

Eviscerate hits so hard for sub and feels so good to press compared to the other two spec's wet noodle finishers. Losing it to full-time Rupture babysitting is a shame.

[Skarzog]

The problem is, simply advancing your bleeds isn't technically a DPS gain, is it? It'll still tick just as many times per application. Seems like more of a burst thing.

Eviscerate hits so hard for sub and feels so good to press compared to the other two spec's wet noodle finishers. Losing it to full-time Rupture babysitting is a shame.

Not only that but it also kind of conflicts with the whole idea of find weakness no? After a certain amount of MS I imagine it will become increasingly difficult to spam eviscerate during the FW cycle. Once the average duration of our Rupture drops below 18-16 seconds it will be impossible to keep Rupture outside of the entire Shadow Dance + FW period.

[Kael]

The problem is, simply advancing your bleeds isn't technically a DPS gain, is it? It'll still tick just as many times per application. Seems like more of a burst thing.

This is more of a 6.0 discussion than anything about the dev team's responses, but so long as your bleeds are a higher DPCT than the alternative (rupture > evis), it's a damage increase to have it tick faster. The more ruptures you cast at full damage instead of evis, the better. That said, it makes the entire gain of the passive (more rupture ticks) a gain of the difference between rupture and evis... while reducing the number of "kapow" actions the rogue gets to take, as you mention.

[Deleted]

Pathal from EJ did testing for DFA as Combat rogue .... gues what http://http://pastebin.com/V29KQ8ZH

[Emophia]

Pathal from EJ did testing for DFA as Combat rogue .... gues what http://http://pastebin.com/V29KQ8ZH

With a few hours of practice and testing. I'm not sure if DFA is even a DPS increase

lol blizzarrd, Just lol.

[Willoughby]

This is more of a 6.0 discussion than anything about the dev team's responses,

Apologies, just seemed like somewhere around the last few pages the discussion derailed more towards bitching about what we think is wrong with the class in 6.0.

but so long as your bleeds are a higher DPCT than the alternative (rupture > evis), it's a damage increase to have it tick faster.

I feel dumb for not realizing this. Not only is Rupture higher DPCT than Evis but it's also higher DPE.

Regardless, variable bleed durations feel awful and should go. The previous iteration of Sinister Calling was closer to the right direction, even with its problems.

[Feali]

Pathal from EJ did testing for DFA as Combat rogue .... gues what http://http://pastebin.com/V29KQ8ZH

This is so ridiculous...

[Kael]

Apologies, just seemed like somewhere around the last few pages the discussion derailed more towards bitching about what we think is wrong with the class in 6.0.

oh it's fine to discuss anywhere 6.0 talk is happening, I was just surprised to see it in a complaint thread rather than the broader discussion in the 6.0 thread.

[Artorius]

Pathal from EJ did testing for DFA as Combat rogue .... gues what http://http://pastebin.com/V29KQ8ZH

Pathal doing this kind of TC made me remember the old good Aldriana's spreadsheets

The idea of the flying shurikens while performing DfA to continue auto-attacking or the Shadow reflection doing it would be awesome, but I highly doubt that they'll do something more than tune numbers this far...

[Coldkil]

Pathal from EJ did testing for DFA as Combat rogue .... gues what http://http://pastebin.com/V29KQ8ZH

lolwat. Then we have people complaining about us complaining.

[Artorius]

lolwat. Then we have people complaining about us complaining.

And DfA is not even the worst problem...

[Tziva]

Pathal from EJ did testing for DFA as Combat rogue .... gues what http://http://pastebin.com/V29KQ8ZH

Oh, wow. Alright then.

- - - Updated - - -

lolwat. Then we have people complaining about us complaining.

Well, I think it's safe to assume it won't go live that way.

I mean, that's not to say I expect all issues to be solved by launch but a top tier talent not being a DPS increase will probably be something they tweak numbers on.

Obviously I have some criticism of the class as evident from this thread, but I'm not so cynical that I don't expect them to be doing more numbers passes throughout the beta. So I'm not worried about that. I mean, it still might not end up being the talent we pick but I expect it to end up at least a DPS increase.

[Coldkil]

Well, I think it's safe to assume it won't go live that way.

I mean, that's not to say I expect all issues to be solved by launch but a top tier talent not being a DPS increase will probably be something they tweak numbers on.

Obviously I have some criticism of the class as evident from this thread, but I'm not so cynical that I don't expect them to be doing more numbers passes throughout the beta. So I'm not worried about that. I mean, it still might not end up being the talent we pick but I expect it to end up at least a DPS increase.

It was safe assuming that feedback of MoP beta was bringing the issues to devs eyes, and one of the biggest one was the absolute trainwreck of design that level 90 talent tier was. They took out redirect and made it baseline and redid a talent in 5.1, which is half the expansion after.

The biggest issue most people here have is not the current rogue situation; it's the reiterating of a discussion which has been brought up more or less on the same topics years ago.

Numbers is the last of our worries. They are fine and they always have been - this is why we work well. We aren't a recount simulation environment, though it seems we've become one and that's all that matters to devs.

EDIT: not intending to attack you in any way. If there's people enjoying their rogues, i'm happy for them. But i just see rogue population being surpassed by the last class added (which btw you neede to level up from scratch thus DK argument doesn't apply) as a symptom of something not working well.
People try rogues, get bored half way, leave them in the dust. People raiding with rogues get bored and reroll - not because of fotm, but because other classes are more entertaining to play. Ask people around, rogues still playing have been main character from the start.

That's why people (well, at least i) are angry.

We're not talking anymore about buff/nerfs or even fixes. We're talking about needed improvements as a whole, but it seems we don't need them for Blizzard.

[Hitei]

Obviously I have some criticism of the class as evident from this thread, but I'm not so cynical that I don't expect them to be doing more numbers passes throughout the beta. So I'm not worried about that. I mean, it still might not end up being the talent we pick but I expect it to end up at least a DPS increase.

Perhaps if we wave our disproportionately small forelimbs (metaphorically speaking) enough about this we can get them to scrap the entire 100 talent row and give us something better.

[SynergyDarkstar]

Pathal from EJ did testing for DFA as Combat rogue .... gues what http://http://pastebin.com/V29KQ8ZH

More complaining for rogues!? This is just ridiculous, it's not like the class is broken. Besides we have posters who have played a rogue in beta for a whole SIX HUNDRED SECONDS telling you idiots that every other class is jealous of a super talent like DfA. Probably best talent in WoW. I mean, what's this Pathal guy know compared to someone who just picked up the class. AND Burst of Speed is the most OP thing ever created in the land of OP-ness, so that means the talent tree is fine too!

Who cares about combo points disappearing? I mean, you people whine about how the class used to be, how combo points used to disappear in the past AND THEN WHEN BLIZZARD CHANGES IT you just whine some more about the changes!

And how dare you complain now, beta is over! Guess you should have given valid feedback when beta started, morons, instead of just more whining.

/sarc

But seriously, that's horrible. It's like they designed something that they never bothered to test...and it'll be shipped as-is in 2 months. We still barely get an indication that they're aware of the problem.

[Sesshou]

And DfA is not even the worst problem...

No, I actually think it is. The reason I say this is because people keep pointing to it as the answer to 'giving rogues something new and cool' and 'giving rogues an animation that stands out'. I keep seeing people pointing to DfA acting like it solves our issues without knowing how garbage the thing actually is, and people thinking our issues are solved when they aren't is probably the worst possible problem for us.