Celestalon insight about rogues (not mentioned in mmo-champion blue posts)

[zoomgpally]

Fair point. It's a huge change that we have been asking for for a long time.

(honestly, and maybe I am crazy - I wouldn't have minded if they had just removed the cooldown from redirect as a solution. I kinda actually like the extra level of effort required to move the points around via hotkey. The ridiculous part was needing a glyph slot to shorten a cooldown that IMO shouldn't even exist)

Anyway.

Problem with that is mobs that instantly despawn when they die so the points would be lost or you would have to move them to next target before finishing the kill.

[Creed]

So- I've been doing a bunch of tests with the three specs again- I figured, hell, for PvP, maybe Combat is like some untapped potential; A hidden gem!

So, as per usual I test how much damage I can do in 30, 45, and 60 seconds on the level 100 Shat. Weak Damage Dummy.

Over 65% of my damage is Main Gauche + Auto Attack + Poison. All passive. Not even 40%. Not 50%...over 65%. And thats not just in one test, that number remains pretty consistent for every test.

I did then try using a dagger main-hand, taking from what I heard on this very thread, and stacked mastery instead of haste- the damage actually went UP; So yeah, dagger main-hand, sword off-hand and mastery stacking.

Your sig is right, Nolara; Mastery /WILL/ fix it... Though, I'm not sure it's fixing the right problem <_<

I'd also like to make mention of the Combat 4pc PvP set bonus. Its actually a downside. Sure, one more second should be two more hits which means more damage... But in all my tests, the only time I /don't/ energy cap is if I can use spree at 0-5 energy. And I'm even running the Glyph of Energy! And that is with Mastery stacked; If I stacked Haste (as I tried previously) I capped even faster.

I'd also like to include that Internal Bleeding is accounting for almost twice as much damage as Killing Spree is. And yes, I spree during Deep Insight every time... What is with this class?

[Sativ]

I'd also like to include that Internal Bleeding is accounting for almost twice as much damage as Killing Spree is. And yes, I spree during Deep Insight every time... What is with this class?

Yeah, Internal Bleeding's damage is beyond stupid. I've seen a 31k crt tick on that shit... Compared to a 11k Killing Spree MH. Sad honestly.

[Creed]

Yeah, Internal Bleeding's damage is beyond stupid. I've seen a 31k crt tick on that shit... Compared to a 11k Killing Spree MH. Sad honestly.

And we know, rather than improve killing Spree, they'll just nerf Internal Bleeding into the ground.
I'm still upset about the 60-70% passive damage of Combat, though. I know it's been said into the ground- but, I am.

[Deleted]

And we know, rather than improve killing Spree, they'll just nerf Internal Bleeding into the ground.
I'm still upset about the 60-70% passive damage of Combat, though. I know it's been said into the ground- but, I am.

does internal bleeding even do anything against bosses and such.. that whole tier seems to be just pvp oriented.

[Wow]

does internal bleeding even do anything against bosses and such.. that whole tier seems to be just pvp oriented.

Only if you can stun them.

[Tassia]

Only if you can stun them.

Battleguard Sartura!

[Lesane]

Only if you can stun them.

In which case PotW will always be better.

[Creed]

In which case PotW will always be better.

That also requires you to have the target affected by Kidney or Cheap Shot- which raid bosses are immune to.

[ymirsson]

It was a comment about stunnable bosses.

[SynergyDarkstar]

From the Blue Tracker on the frontpage about the beta:

Everything was fine until I hit level 7, and had to kill a level 8 boss. Lieutenant Palliter blocked my attacks. I was already doing less damage to him than to the mobs outside, but blocking didn't help. I died. Using Evasion and Blood Fury, I was able to narrowly squeak out a victory. Then I went on to the Burning Blade Scroll quest. As a level 8 rogue, I could not kill a level 8 mob, without using either evasion or blood fury. I had to have one of them up, or I died. Facing a level 9 mob required both. I fought through it, and made it to level 9, but I couldn't take it anymore. I died 5 times trying to get 6 drops, from mobs the same level as me, and with less health. Waiting for a 2 min CD between every mob was just too much. The character was just too weak.

(http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/14419602009)

AHEM: hahahahahahahahahahahah.....*starts sobbing in a corner*

They just have no fucking clue, do they? Has anyone over in Blizz HQ even created a rogue?

[Feali]

From the Blue Tracker on the frontpage about the beta:



(http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/14419602009)

AHEM: hahahahahahahahahahahah.....*starts sobbing in a corner*

They just have no fucking clue, do they? Has anyone over in Blizz HQ even created a rogue?

I'm gonna try this. Just to see if it's actually true or the person just sucks.

- - - Updated - - -

Update: Leveling is fucking dull. Gave up at level 4. JK.

But seriously: I know now why nobody is leveling a Rogue: 50 Energy Sinister Strike is just plain stupid and until level 10? Fuck that shit.. I wouldn't start a Rogue

[Taeyon]

They should scale energy regen like they do warrior rage to give you access to hitting your few basic spells early on more often. It feels better to be active instead of just auto attacking mobs to death.

[Feali]

They should scale energy regen like they do warrior rage to give you access to hitting your few basic spells early on more often. It feels better to be active instead of just auto attacking mobs to death.

I almost died to a level 6 mob.

- - - Updated - - -

Update 2: The forum poster doesn't even suck that bad. Granted I didn't have Evasion yet but even I died to that fucking mob with Blood Fury.
Also there's a rare mob nearby that kills me before I can get him to 50%.
I don't know what it is but something is wrong. Oh I see: I get my first weapon besides the starter gear with that quest.

[dak1]

From the Blue Tracker on the frontpage about the beta:



(http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/14419602009)

AHEM: hahahahahahahahahahahah.....*starts sobbing in a corner*

They just have no fucking clue, do they? Has anyone over in Blizz HQ even created a rogue?

Even better:

Hunters definitely don't suffer from this problem, they are maybe even a little overpowered. I had no difficulty taking down even a level 9 when I was level 5, although he did kill my pet. Most stuff my level I could just autoattack easily, I had no worries about the level of my enemy.

Oh my. I went and made a fresh rogue after reading this, thinking it can't be that hard. Had to do all the other Goldshire quests and hit level 8 before I could kill Princess (lvl9 boar), still needed a healing potion after evasion lol. Along the way I died a half dozen times to murloc swarms and young forest bears hiding behind trees (had nameplates off to simulate newbie experience). Fun stuff.

Called it quits after dying with no corpse, no way to talk to spirit healer, and "character not found" upon trying to relog.

[SynergyDarkstar]

I almost died to a level 6 mob.

- - - Updated - - -

Update 2: The forum poster doesn't even suck that bad. Granted I didn't have Evasion yet but even I died to that fucking mob with Blood Fury.
Also there's a rare mob nearby that kills me before I can get him to 50%.
I don't know what it is but something is wrong. Oh I see: I get my first weapon besides the starter gear with that quest.

Lol, Nal, keep the updates going, I don't have beta, but want to see how far this lasts (I'm assuming it's not like this at 90)

- - - Updated - - -

Even better:

Completely predictable and upsetting to the same degree

[shadowboy]

But seriously: I know now why nobody is leveling a Rogue: 50 Energy Sinister Strike is just plain stupid and until level 10? Fuck that shit.. I wouldn't start a Rogue

The 50e Sinister Strike wouldn't be so bad if it did as much damage as on live. Unfortunately, WoD mechanics basically nerfed SS's damage into the ground (as in, it does less damage than an autoattack) while retaining the expensive cost. Worst of both worlds.

[Geckoo]

As i always said, the problem with 'haste will fix it' in energy based specs (rogue, feral, monk to a lesser degree) is that it limits the actions you can do in a negative way and that's an overkill at low level, for other classes haste allows them to cast more stuff, to cast faster... that's fine, but the lack of haste never stops them to being able to actually cast things. You won't see a ret paladin or a mage running out of mana constantly while killing a mob because he doesn't have enough haste.

Even if before WoD rogues had enough power at low level to simply destroy mobs (as everyone else), that problem happened sooner or later, the autoattack game. Who had fun leveling in MoP? it was a nightmare because we didn't have enough energy regen, it's usually boring as hell at max level because of that same reason, although is less noticeable at level 100 this time, is still the same problem as always.

They'll fix the numbers to avoid the real problem: haste has too much impact in energy regeneration, no class should be so limited by one single stat.

[Lesane]

As i always said, the problem with 'haste will fix it' in energy based specs (rogue, feral, monk to a lesser degree) is that it limits the actions you can do in a negative way and that's an overkill at low level, for other classes haste allows them to cast more stuff, to cast faster... that's fine, but the lack of haste never stops them to being able to actually cast things. You won't see a ret paladin or a mage running out of mana constantly while killing a mob because he doesn't have enough haste.

Even if before WoD rogues had enough power at low level to simply destroy mobs (as everyone else), that problem happened sooner or later, the autoattack game. Who had fun leveling in MoP? it was a nightmare because we didn't have enough energy regen, it's usually boring as hell at max level because of that same reason, although is less noticeable at level 100 this time, is still the same problem as always.

They'll fix the numbers to avoid the real problem: haste has too much impact in energy regeneration, no class should be so limited by one single stat.

This is just a matter of perception. With a caster class you get a cast bar in the bottom of the screen, giving you the illusion that you are actually doing something. A 2.5 energy cast means you are doing nothing for 2.5 sec however. Obviously, with baseline energy regen and no passives that improve it, Sinister Strike is effectively comparable to a 5 second cast. However, rogues aren't the only class with such issues at very low levels. Other classes also get abilities that with 4+ second cooldowns as their only way of doing something outside of auto-attacks. Once you get energy regen passives, it gets a lot better. Either way, while leveling shouldn't be horrible, I don't think it's a good idea to balance your game around it. Also, you can't compare energy to mana. They're completely different and using your example, I did level a ret paladin last month and until you get the passive that makes Judgement give Holy Power it's also very slow paced. They're limited by their cooldowns, not mana. Rogue spells don't have cooldowns but are limited by energy. Energy is superior to ability cooldowns because it allows you to pool while ability cooldowns don't. Every class has limitations on ability usage, we are limited in the best way if you ask me.

Leveling in MOP wasn't all that bad until the later levels, and even then it was doable, it just took a while to kill stuff and you couldn't really multipull. It wasn't caused by energy regen. People don't understand that being slow at killing stuff doesn't have to be a direct result of slow energy regen. Scenario A: energy now regens by 20 per sec instead of 10, sinister strike hits for 100 damage. Scenario B: energy regens at 10 per sec as it does now, and SS hits for 250 damage. Which scenario makes you kill stuff faster (ignore CP generation, we're talking low level rogue here)? Being slow at killing stuff is a combination of low haste, low crit chance, low mastery, low dodge etc. I've played in beta and @ 100 with questing green gear Subtlety and Assassination seem more than fine in terms of energy regen. In fact I'm worried that it's going to cause problems in the last tier, although they've been hinting so much at a 2 tier expansion that I can see that happening and then it should be fine.

The whole energy "issue" is a psychological one (Contrast effect). Energy regen feels so slow at the start of an expac because you've been playing for months (in this case over a year) with end-tier haste levels and super fast energy regen. Why didn't anyone experience this frustration in the vanilla -> BC or BC -> wrath transition? Because back then all you had in terms of energy regen was your steady chunk of 20 energy every 2 seconds, and combat potency procs in terms of TBC raiding. We didn't know any better, we never got to the point where wé're running around with 18~ energy per sec before Combat Potency procs. Our energy regen in end-MOP is effectively twice as high as it was in end-TBC. But our baseline energy is always 10 per 1 sec, and during leveling you're brought back closer to baseline again. It's not that energy is slow during leveling, it's just that it's super fast in last tier raids.

[Ryme]

The whole energy "issue" is a psychological one (Contrast effect). Energy regen feels so slow at the start of an expac because you've been playing for months (in this case over a year) with end-tier haste levels and super fast energy regen.

I don't agree entirely. I feel that spending 40% of your time without the ability to do anything is pretty dreadful, and a valid issue. I agree the jump from expansion end to start accentuates this, but that doesn't invalidate the point that it sucks spending 40% of your time not being able to press a dps button as a dps.

Bear in mind, that 40% is what you get in the 660 pvp gear, not the items you'll have when you first start raiding, so in reality, you're first few weeks at end game and perhaps the time you spend levelling up will have more downtime.