I feel like I'm cursed or something...

[chuachua]

1. I could do belts on normal on horribly geared 530++ alts without cloaks. And many were casters that couldn't maximize dps on belts.
2. Before you say I don't know what melee is like, just know I main a rogue that does heroic siege belts every week since months ago and we have a ret on belt duty.
3. Why are you getting hit by bombs as melee?
4. I suggest you l2p before making a thread to whine on forums. Terrible players get into terrible groups. People forming pugs who know their stuff look at experience over ilvl. The groups with many bad players are normally those that focus on ilvl.

[Alroxas]

I'm really curious to know more details of these runs in "flex". The overall lack of teamwork seems to indicate that this is most likely a PuG without voice comms (and more importantly) lack of someone raid leading.

If the group is insistent on not using voice comms but still fails then there is an issue of mechanic handling and either you need to teach those people the mechanics OR replace them. If neither of those two actions are done, then leave the group.

[Deleted]

I have to say that some of you have a really weird view on raiding. Maybe I should translate some of your "answers" to IRL situations to show how weird they really are.

Malkorok breaths:

Hey, mr boss, Freddy the trainee from sales keeps adressing our customers as "fuckheads" in his mails. What should we do?
Reasonable answer from the boss: "That's unacceptable. fire him at once and replace him."
What you guys are saying the boss should reply: "well, not much we can do about that, even though he's only in a trial period. How about we let Nzall proofread all his mails before Freddy sends them so he can edit the mistakes. If any pass through, we can yell at Nzall. It's easier for us to tell Nzall that he should have had put in extra work to compensate fro Freddy's incompetence than it is for us to replace Freddy."

I talked to Alex from FatbossTV about this while he was livestreaming. You know, the 14/14hc 25 man guild that makes all the boss guides? he says that if you fail at something as easy as Malkorok breaths, it's your fault and not the fault of the person who could have theoretically saved you with a raid CD. Also, malkorok breath does NOT do merely 600K or so damage, else we wouldn't even care about it. According to DJ, it does 1.2M shadow damage. You need a MAJOR CD to survive that, like a dispersion or something.

I should not have to compensate for other people failing hard at simple stuff that's just pressing a movement button for 2 seconds. That includes malkorok breaths, Sha projections (the stuff that you need to go stand in or else it explodes for massive damage) or Spoils bombs. Imagine you go to a guild in early progression, and they say "oh, we have a few slow people that keep standing in avoidable stuff, so we setup a CD rotation for the instakill stuff that's easily avoidable so our raidmembers don't have to worry about that". I doubt any sane raider would think that's actually viable. if you don't believe me, try suggesting that to your guild next time you raid SoO.

Alex compared that instakill avoidable stuff to an acid potion of certain doom that's labeled with "DO NOT DRINK ME OR YOU WILL DIE!": If someone drinks from that, it's their fault and not yours for not slamming the bottle from their hands when they drink from it.

[Illana]

I have to say that some of you have a really weird view on raiding. Maybe I should translate some of your "answers" to IRL situations to show how weird they really are.

Malkorok breaths:



I talked to Alex from FatbossTV about this while he was livestreaming. You know, the 14/14hc 25 man guild that makes all the boss guides? he says that if you fail at something as easy as Malkorok breaths, it's your fault and not the fault of the person who could have theoretically saved you with a raid CD. Also, malkorok breath does NOT do merely 600K or so damage, else we wouldn't even care about it. According to DJ, it does 1.2M shadow damage. You need a MAJOR CD to survive that, like a dispersion or something.

I should not have to compensate for other people failing hard at simple stuff that's just pressing a movement button for 2 seconds. That includes malkorok breaths, Sha projections (the stuff that you need to go stand in or else it explodes for massive damage) or Spoils bombs. Imagine you go to a guild in early progression, and they say "oh, we have a few slow people that keep standing in avoidable stuff, so we setup a CD rotation for the instakill stuff that's easily avoidable so our raidmembers don't have to worry about that". I doubt any sane raider would think that's actually viable. if you don't believe me, try suggesting that to your guild next time you raid SoO.

Alex compared that instakill avoidable stuff to an acid potion of certain doom that's labeled with "DO NOT DRINK ME OR YOU WILL DIE!": If someone drinks from that, it's their fault and not yours for not slamming the bottle from their hands when they drink from it.

you're talking about a completely different situation.

They are a cutting edge progression guild who cannot afford to carry people

you are pugging flex.

[Deleted]

you're talking about a completely different situation.

They are a cutting edge progression guild who cannot afford to carry people

you are pugging flex.

Malkorok was on normal mode. in a pug still, but if you can't handle something as simple as Malkorok Breath (move ten feet towards the other end of the room) with marks on all 3 zones, you shouldn't even be doing normal mode.

[JemiS]

Similarly, if you (a) can't handle belts at pretty much any ilvl post-530, or (b) get hit by iron star on Garrosh, you don't belong on those attempts. If you, personally, are getting projections as a non-healer or tank on Sha, you're probably failing at mechanics and causing your pride to shoot up.

Yes, if I was in a group where people died to breaths more than once, I'd ask the leader to either kick them or I'd leave.

But I'd ask the same thing for people doing things you seem to be failing at.

People aren't saying it's acceptable, but at some point in a PuG, you're carrying other people. And there's only so much you can do about those other people unless you're the raid leader.

If you're the raid leader, explain what they did wrong, give them an attempt to fix it and move on. If you're not the raid leader, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. From your post, they should probably be removed, and you should probably be as well, so....

[Frederick]

I have to say that some of you have a really weird view on raiding.

The view on raiding is that they want/expect to do whatever they can to avoid a wipe. If the breath does 1.2M, and you have a full shield (which you should) then a minor CD will absolutely save you. I guarantee that if he was at full health with a shield, a minor CD will absolutely save him from the breath.

You appear to be concentrating on raiding as an individual, which is fine, but don't complain about the standard of your groups if this is the case - if you want to move onwards and upwards and progress to more difficult raiding, you have to stand out amongst your peers. One way to do that is by helping your raid avoid wiping.

[Dracodraco]

I have to say that some of you have a really weird view on raiding. Maybe I should translate some of your "answers" to IRL situations to show how weird they really are.

Malkorok breaths:



I talked to Alex from FatbossTV about this while he was livestreaming. You know, the 14/14hc 25 man guild that makes all the boss guides? he says that if you fail at something as easy as Malkorok breaths, it's your fault and not the fault of the person who could have theoretically saved you with a raid CD. Also, malkorok breath does NOT do merely 600K or so damage, else we wouldn't even care about it. According to DJ, it does 1.2M shadow damage. You need a MAJOR CD to survive that, like a dispersion or something.

I should not have to compensate for other people failing hard at simple stuff that's just pressing a movement button for 2 seconds. That includes malkorok breaths, Sha projections (the stuff that you need to go stand in or else it explodes for massive damage) or Spoils bombs. Imagine you go to a guild in early progression, and they say "oh, we have a few slow people that keep standing in avoidable stuff, so we setup a CD rotation for the instakill stuff that's easily avoidable so our raidmembers don't have to worry about that". I doubt any sane raider would think that's actually viable. if you don't believe me, try suggesting that to your guild next time you raid SoO.

First off, your entire post implied flex. Flex "just" does 900K dmg, which with devo+personal reductions makes it surviveable. Normal mode, no, you probably won't save people from a breath. Flex, you will.

Second, you have absolutely no god damn clue how high end progression works. I'm from a guild that killed stuff before the guy you spoke to did - and I can tell you this much: You most ceartainly do add raid CDs to "surviveable don't stand in shit"-abilities that might kill you. Take Malkorok as an example, as it's the boss we're discussing mainly right now:
During progress, we happened to have four paladins. After the initial 3 smashes/soaks (AKA after the breath), we started rolling devotion auras on each subsequent soak, as for the first 3x, people would have full health that would slowly get widdled down due to the aura, accidentelly taking orbs, or soaking pools with not-full shields. The Devo's kept people from dying on the last 3 of the set, so we could heal up during the blood rage and repeat it again after. You could say "well people should just not step in the small orbs then, HAH, easy!" - and you'd be right. But that's not how you get kills. People are going to get hit, so you work around it.

Another example could be sha of pride - you don't strictly need raid cooldowns for anything, nothing can 1 shot you on the fight. Sure, a combo of swelling pride + getting hit by a rift or a tick of the debuff might, but you could just say "well, he shouldn't have been hit" / "well, the healers should just dispell faster". And sure, you could try that. OR you could combat accidental deaths by smashing a few raid CDs at the ability. Add a devotion aura and a tranq that wouldn't be used otherwise, and suddenly everyone is topped before the hit, and the hit+RNG element won't be fatal. It makes for better consistency, and it's how you get a kill. It's not just viable - any sane high end raider should be questioning a new guild if they aren't doing this, and are just slamming their heads against bosses, hoping everyone performs perfectly.

Almost every single boss has things you can make more lenient through raid cooldowns, and any guild in the top 100 will know to exploit that to the best of their raid's ability, and make sure there's cooldowns up. You'd rather spend 10 minutes sorting out who CD's when and have someone lose maybe 5% output to focus on calling it out during the fight (not that all people do, but just as an example), than add 10 wipes that'll take 10 minute a piece, and hope people just don't fuck up.

Heck, this whole train of thought is why Disc's are considered so extremely overpowered this tier - because having a good disc in your raid essentially means they're always covered in 100-200K shields that makes it harder for them to die due to fucking up by standing in shit etc - it's a layer of protection that helps you kill stuff.

[Deleted]

What draco said. This "but it's not my fault" and "I shouldn't have to" attitude is ridiculous. If there's a big burst incoming for 95% of my hp I also shouldn't have to pop shamanistic rage as personal, nor guidance for raidmembers, but unless I need to save it for some more important part, why not? You seem to be under the impression that raiding is somehow "do as little effort required as possible to get the boss down". Especially something like devo aura on malkorok. It's useless during blood rage and off the global cooldown, so why don't you use it if it can make the encounter go more smooth?
I pug garrosh on a lot of chars for heirlooms, and yeah my 586 shaman overgears it massively, but if I'd just be focusing on pulling numbers and doing mechanics on my own I'd probably have double the amount of wipes. Personal cd's and guidance/htt can make up a massive difference. At some point I even resorted to healing rain during empowered when I saw healers struggle, and prevented a wipe. By your logic I'd just pewpew and then say I got unlucky with bad groups/incompetent healers, instead of just helping out and getting the boss down.

[Drsolders]

People were getting projections in flex? Did they stand in every reflection? Hell my group rarely gets them in heroic, although we nuke the boss pretty fast but it's still not too uncommon to have some towards the end of the fight. Sounds more like a l2p issue. As for pugs, make your own, set your requirements and go. Flex is easy even in pugs, almost all but maybe garrosh is a serious joke even with pugs who are 520-530, and garrosh is still pretty easy at that ilvl. Although i do admit I don't deal with it and just find 570+ pugs now that wreck the whole thing but I still did it back earlier. Normal is a toss up, most groups will hit three major pitfalls. Really bad groups will get stuck somewhere in the first four, that is just being terrible. Mediocre groups will fail near nazgrim/malk. Bellow average will get stuck thok-garrosh, but at this point it is all so easy there should be no trouble. Lets take your sha for example. There are litterally 4 things in that entire fight.

Healer: Dispell with gift
tanks: Swap when you get the debuff
Dps: Kill add in the back

Everyone: Don't stand in reflection

That is the whole fight. I mean even on heroic the only change is shit mortars spawning that someone has to go stand on, and pac-man ( It's so hard to turn left twice and be out within 5 seconds ).

With all that said, sometimes you do just get bad groups, you can't do anything about it. From your post though, you seem to not want to adapt. I mean good luck going anything further without doing so. I REALLY didn't want to do belts for heroic siege on my priest, but guess what? Have my spriest on there to levitate 4 hunters every other belt made it a joke.

[Nobleshield]

I have to say that some of you have a really weird view on raiding. Maybe I should translate some of your "answers" to IRL situations to show how weird they really are.

Malkorok breaths:



I talked to Alex from FatbossTV about this while he was livestreaming. You know, the 14/14hc 25 man guild that makes all the boss guides? he says that if you fail at something as easy as Malkorok breaths, it's your fault and not the fault of the person who could have theoretically saved you with a raid CD. Also, malkorok breath does NOT do merely 600K or so damage, else we wouldn't even care about it. According to DJ, it does 1.2M shadow damage. You need a MAJOR CD to survive that, like a dispersion or something.

I should not have to compensate for other people failing hard at simple stuff that's just pressing a movement button for 2 seconds. That includes malkorok breaths, Sha projections (the stuff that you need to go stand in or else it explodes for massive damage) or Spoils bombs. Imagine you go to a guild in early progression, and they say "oh, we have a few slow people that keep standing in avoidable stuff, so we setup a CD rotation for the instakill stuff that's easily avoidable so our raidmembers don't have to worry about that". I doubt any sane raider would think that's actually viable. if you don't believe me, try suggesting that to your guild next time you raid SoO.

Alex compared that instakill avoidable stuff to an acid potion of certain doom that's labeled with "DO NOT DRINK ME OR YOU WILL DIE!": If someone drinks from that, it's their fault and not yours for not slamming the bottle from their hands when they drink from it.

I've seen this attitude before, in fact I had it myself for a while. Here's the thing: When you're in a raid you do what you need to in order to help the team overcome the encounter. People have different skill levels. There is no "But So-and-so says to do it this way!". You have a job to do in a raid, even if said job is "DPS the big scary monster". That doesn't mean you can or should ONLY focus on that job, especially as a Paladin. When I raid, I do whatever I can to help, even if it lowers my own DPS. I'll toss a Flash of Light (with Selfless Healer ofc) on someone who needs a heal. I'll hand of sacrifice someone, or even BoP them if I need to (e.g. Nazrim assassin add). I don't sit there and let them die and then be like "Oh well you should be better" if I could have helped out.

You don't have to "compensate" for other people, and if people are consistently failing at things then they do need to learn to improve, but if you aren't helping in any way you can when you are in a raid, then you are just as much to blame as them. A raid is a team exercise. You win or lose as a team. In your example, if people are standing in avoidable stuff you need to get them to improve, but if setting up a CD rotation helps defeat the encounter, then you do that.

I have an anecdote which isn't from WoW but still apt. I played RIFT for a bit when the Storm Legion expansion hit, and with what I would consider a bad to mediocre guild. We struggled in the "entry level" 10 man raid for a long time. We finally got the last boss, which is meant to be a solo tank fight but she spawns adds and later turns into a dragon. Our tank had major issues picking up the two adds that spawned; I'm not entirely sure why, but he did. So I swapped to tank spec, using a high DPS tank spec so I wouldn't lose too much of our DPS. We did that and it worked; he tanked the boss, I tanked the adds and did DPS on the boss whenever possible. When we would get a kill on it, we literally would kill it within seconds of enrage every single time (because while I was using a high DPS tank spec, it was still a good chunk below a real DPS spec), and I kept saying how stupid it would be to two-tank the fight, to the point where I would get laughed at on forums for saying our strategy. But you know what? It worked. We killed that boss. We used an unorthodox way, but we still did it.

My point is that sometimes the group you are with will use an unorthodox way or doing a fight or, if people just aren't that good, there are ways to help out to compensate for it. The wrong answer is to just complain how everyone else sucks and aren't doing things right, especially if you aren't doing your part to help compensate for some of the issues.

[Deleted]

Apparently, I should be complaining more on these forums, because every time I express my discontent about the game, you guys manage to cause a mentality shift in me.

Back during MoP beta, I complained on the paladin forums that there were so many talents in our tree that were useless for pure DPS, to which the paladin community replied en masse that being a DPS is not just about your main role. They said about the same as you guys: "Don't focus on meters, focus on the encounter and your group as a whole. Noone cares about your DPS, they just care that the boss dies".

And then after that, MoP came out and I promptly forgot all that because being stuck in LFR has a tendency to make you think that nothing in LFR is dangerous. It dulls your senses and makes you forget that your main task is to kill the boss, because it's nearly impossible not to do that in LFR unless you have key people fucking up.

It's probably going to happen again, since I'm just not the right material for guilds and will again be stuck the whole of WoD in LFR... Only this time, I'm not really going to like it in there since the good players will be gone and they are tuning it like they're still in there...

[chuachua]

Apparently, I should be complaining more on these forums, because every time I express my discontent about the game, you guys manage to cause a mentality shift in me.

Back during MoP beta, I complained on the paladin forums that there were so many talents in our tree that were useless for pure DPS, to which the paladin community replied en masse that being a DPS is not just about your main role. They said about the same as you guys: "Don't focus on meters, focus on the encounter and your group as a whole. Noone cares about your DPS, they just care that the boss dies".

And then after that, MoP came out and I promptly forgot all that because being stuck in LFR has a tendency to make you think that nothing in LFR is dangerous. It dulls your senses and makes you forget that your main task is to kill the boss, because it's nearly impossible not to do that in LFR unless you have key people fucking up.

It's probably going to happen again, since I'm just not the right material for guilds and will again be stuck the whole of WoD in LFR... Only this time, I'm not really going to like it in there since the good players will be gone and they are tuning it like they're still in there...

Simply put, if you don't want to join a guild then you expect to have silly wipes in pugs. Although after reading all your posts it's obvious you haven't got a clue what heroic raiding is about. Popping a raid cd to save the raid is what separates the good players from the bad. Yes it isn't your fault someone missed a puddle. Does that mean you don't devo to try to get the boss down? Absolutely not. You need to understand using a raid cd/ personal can be the difference between a kill and a wipe.

Btw, still waiting for what you have to say about ret pallies being bad at belts.