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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Chitika View Post
    That's because right now casters have high mobility. That change comes with WoD.
    Thankyou captain obvious, that is the point of this whole thread, after all.

    Also apparently on top of bringing bloodlust, bringing the ONLY OTHER real dps increase raid cd isn't bringing raid utility. Hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Willoughby View Post
    Maybe I'm missing something, but how does Hunter/KJC-style mobility for all make casters more diverse?
    I was just talking about mobility as a general concept, not about giving every caster a flat "you can cast everything while moving" skill. It could come in the form of lots of instant-cast abilities, skills that are useable while moving, or any other mechanic that gives casters buttons to press while running around.
    I was also talking about this high-mobility style being an option that would be exclusive with turret talents like AD or Focusing Shot.

    Basically my overall point was: It's better to have casters who can choose between powerful stationary DPS, or lower mobile DPS, rather than forcing them all to either be one or the other. It's the *choice* that's important.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondercrab View Post
    Basically my overall point was: It's better to have casters who can choose between powerful stationary DPS, or lower mobile DPS, rather than forcing them all to either be one or the other. It's the *choice* that's important.
    It's honestly not much of a choice. Maybe there's the odd fight that doesn't require much movement, but the vast majority of fights in this coming tier involve a decent amount of movement. There'd be very few circumstances where the choice is even meaningful.

    From what I've seen, casters aren't doing poorly on movement fights and will only get better when they learn to minimize movement and maximize uptime.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Willoughby View Post
    It's honestly not much of a choice. Maybe there's the odd fight that doesn't require much movement, but the vast majority of fights in this coming tier involve a decent amount of movement. There'd be very few circumstances where the choice is even meaningful.

    From what I've seen, casters aren't doing poorly on movement fights and will only get better when they learn to minimize movement and maximize uptime.
    If it's tuned correctly then it absolutely is a choice, particularly for the majority of players to whom playstyle is more important than min/maxing on individual raid fights. That's more what I'm getting at here. It's not about performance, or "needing" the option to remain competitive, it's about playstyle and personal preference. More options of this kind, designed well and tuned appropriately, are always a good thing.

  5. #245
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondercrab View Post
    If it's tuned correctly then it absolutely is a choice, particularly for the majority of players to whom playstyle is more important than min/maxing on individual raid fights. That's more what I'm getting at here. It's not about performance, or "needing" the option to remain competitive, it's about playstyle and personal preference. More options of this kind, designed well and tuned appropriately, are always a good thing.
    Okay, I just can't hold it back any longer.
    If you want to play a class that has high mobility play a class that has high mobility.
    If you buy WoD you get a free 90 boost. Use that for a hunter. That's the choice you have.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondercrab View Post
    If it's tuned correctly then it absolutely is a choice
    Honestly, who's going to voluntarily choose low mobility? Especially on progression.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Willoughby View Post
    Honestly, who's going to voluntarily choose low mobility? Especially on progression.
    Who's going to voluntarily choose less damage would be more accurate... Mobility is only going to be taken when absolutely necessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Willoughby View Post
    Honestly, who's going to voluntarily choose low mobility? Especially on progression.
    I think you just killed Focusing Shot and MM.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Willoughby View Post
    Honestly, who's going to voluntarily choose low mobility? Especially on progression.
    People who like bigger numbers and a turrety playstyle. Or progression raiders who are confident that they can squeeze out more DPS with the turret playstyle by managing their positioning effectively. Again, this is 100% to do with tuning. With bad tuning the opposite scenario is equally likely, where the stationary option offers such a huge DPS boost that few people ever pick the more mobile option.

    And if it seems like a no-brainer purely from a playstyle perspective, then that should be a strong indicator as to why it's a bad thing to force large groups of players into either one style or the other in the first place.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Who's going to voluntarily choose less damage would be more accurate...
    Yeah, like that was remotely the case with KJC on most fights.

  11. #251
    It's a hunter only thing, when they gave multiple ranged the ability to move while dps'ing it wasn't unique anymore, AND, the casters who can't move and cast generally do more damage than hunters ever will.

    The price for moving and fighting is that we do less raw damage.
    "Cataclysm could have used more of Nozdormu. I think all he did was show up shirtless to Thrall's wedding."

    -Anonymous priest

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Willoughby View Post
    Yeah, like that was remotely the case with KJC on most fights.
    KJC offered more dps on most fights because the tier was never a significant dps increase like say, the grimoire tier was. If KJC was on the grimoire tier what would happen? Oh right, it would barely be taken at all if ever. The level 90 talent was "situational damage increases", which is exactly why KJC was good, it wasn't situational it was near constant compared to 2 shitty talents in most situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    The level 90 talent was "situational damage increases", which is exactly why KJC was good, it wasn't situational it was near constant compared to 2 shitty talents in most situations.
    That's exactly the thing though. When, except for the extremely rare patchwerk fight, can freedom of movement ever be considered situational?

    How would they even balance these two completely opposite things well enough to even call it a choice?

  14. #254
    Dreadlord MetroStratics's Avatar
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    This was already addressed. Its because hunters aren't considered a caster. They are essentially a melee dps that doesn't need to stand in melee.
    Cast while moving elsewhere really effects the game.
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  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Willoughby View Post
    That's exactly the thing though. When, except for the extremely rare patchwerk fight, can freedom of movement ever be considered situational?

    How would they even balance these two completely opposite things well enough to even call it a choice?
    When it's verse a universal dps increase it will lose against all but most the mobility heavy fights, as I explained. If it was against grimoires everyone would take grimoires.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Whoopdedoo, Hunters still arent topping the charts even though that is the case, whats more, even on mobility fights they dont bring much in terms of raid utility. (not to mention that isnt even the fault of Hunters, thats on Blizzards raid dev team)
    Hunters bring Heroism/BL, combat res, snare remove, magic & enrage dispel, CC, interrupt, a tank CD (RoS), all the raid buffs in the game, all class debuffs in the game, Aspect of the Fox (raid wide spellcast while moving) and they can kite stuff forever & survive pretty much everything with Deterrence & Feign Death.

    In what way hunters don't bring much in terms of raid utility?

    OT: Hunters were always the mobile ranged class. Casters are meant to stand and cast, that's how the game worked for years, and having everyone just running around is not what Blizz have in mind.
    Even now the only true mobile casters are shamans & warlocks, and they can only cast their filler spells while moving. In order to maintain high DPS even shamans & warlocks need to stand still and cast.

  17. #257
    Scarab Lord Lime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinlea View Post
    "Hunters aren’t casters, so they will still be able to cast many things while moving. If there is a fight with no movement, Hunters won’t do as well, but there aren’t really many (or any) fights with no movement." - source (Warlords of Draenor Class Changes, 6th point).
    Ah, thanks a lot. Saves me a lot of time.

    Regardless, I'm not sure that's good design. But thats due to almost every encounter in PvE and PvP will require movement. If there aren't any "stationary" encounters, then that disadvantage is completely negated which gives Hunters the best of both worlds.

    In movement heavy fights, they would be superior and in stationary fights, they be subpar? Idk, but that sounds horrible to me.
    Last edited by Lime; 2014-08-31 at 08:01 PM.

  18. #258
    Deleted
    a hunter uses a weapon like a melee. why should he not move while using it? a caster needs to concentrate to cast a spell cause he uses cracy magic stuff

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Willoughby View Post
    That's exactly the thing though. When, except for the extremely rare patchwerk fight, can freedom of movement ever be considered situational?

    How would they even balance these two completely opposite things well enough to even call it a choice?
    Simply by providing a talent that will, on average, equal out to a similar amount of stationary damage as a mobility talent across a given raid tier. If you spend, say, ~20% of each fight moving, then a class with zero mobile DPS would need to have their stationary DPS increased by ~20% to make up for it. That's a very basic example, and the optimal talent would vary from fight to fight regardless of tuning, but that's always going to be the case for anyone who likes to min/max to that degree.

    It's really not a difficult design choice to put into practice, especially considering how it's *exactly* what they're doing with hunters and Focusing Shot in WoD. The devs clearly see the merit to it and feel confident that it can be balanced, so why can't this same philosophy be applied to casters?

    Liked turreting in TBC? Great! Here's a talent that makes you blow things up hard while you're standing still! Preferred the freedom of movement you had in MoP? Well, not to worry! Here's a talent that lets you move around a bit more!
    Choice is a great thing to have.

  20. #260

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