Do you feel like your Mage has too many buttons?

[TheWorkingTitle]

This is a simple poll about Mage button bloat, currently in Mists of Pandaria.



As a Mage, are you finding yourself unable to key-bind all of your spells of your DPS rotation on to your bars?



Thanks for reading and participating.

[Polarthief]

Frost I think is in a decent spot atm; it feels like a lot, but it's not really. Fire and Arcane are lacking so many buttons.

In WoD though, Frost has too many buttons, Fire still has like none, and Arcane is in a fairly perfect spot with my talent build, though, like you said (and are continuing from the MI vs Rune thread) this is about live and not WoD.

[mrgreenthump]

My mage.. yes, but mostly because of macroes and uti spells that I really don't need bound. In general we don't really NEED too many keys bound, I would even go to say our rotations need more buttons to press.. At least Fire.

[Deleted]

Frost I think is in a decent spot atm....

In WoD though, Frost has too many buttons...

Same thoughts.

[TheWorkingTitle]

Same thoughts.

This is about MoP, not WoD.

[ablib]

No for all.

[Groblje]

No, no and no. When comparing to other classes I think we're in a fairly good position.

[Polarthief]

No, no and no. When comparing to other classes I think we're in a fairly good position.

Define "fairly good"? Fire feels a bit light and Arcane feels incredibly shallow and empty (though at least Arcane is getting some depth in WoD with the L75 choice and AO).

[LocNess]

I think we have unnecessary clutter. I can just have them moved on my bars, but I just don't agree with a Frost Mage being able to use Fireblast, or Fire being able to use Ice Lance. A lot of the specs just had their elemental identity pushed in harder and I am completely fine with that.

[Polarthief]

I think we have unnecessary clutter. I can just have them moved on my bars, but I just don't agree with a Frost Mage being able to use Fireblast, or Fire being able to use Ice Lance. A lot of the specs just had their elemental identity pushed in harder and I am completely fine with that.

Ice Lance I'm skeptical about because it has no cooldown, deals so little damage, and is useful for pulling, popping totems, getting a stealther out of stealth, etc. Fire Blast I'm glad is gone because it was pointless and something leftover from vanilla.

We definitely have unnecessary clutter (as every class does), but we don't have "too many buttons". Cone of Cold for Fire is most definitely not too many buttons, neither is the option to use AE or Blizzard. Mana Gem and Evocate are, now that we're no longer tied to Mana (even Evocate on Arcane is weird, but I'm guessing if we don't do a burn phase, it's just to prevent us from doing nothing should we lose our mana; could be for a Yor'sahj-like fight?).

This is the first time I feel like they're really removing a lot of useful stuff for the sake of dumbing down the game, and it's upsetting. I was skeptical with the talent trees, though I'm over it and okay with the new design (not the new, stupid, philosophy though). This however is taking it too far.

[Deleted]

I think we have unnecessary clutter. I can just have them moved on my bars, but I just don't agree with a Frost Mage being able to use Fireblast, or Fire being able to use Ice Lance. A lot of the specs just had their elemental identity pushed in harder and I am completely fine with that.

Agreed. It's stupid that I'm using arcane explosion when I should be using blizzard. Same goes for fire blast/ice lance.

Cone of cold is another spell that I don't see the use of. I don't PVP enough to determine how useful it is, but I've never used it in PVE once because either I need a root (which pet freeze/nova already do) or a slow, which a frostbolt/ffb does. Unfortunately for frost, there's 3 mandatory DPS glyphs, so you can't glyph cone of cold like fire does.

Evocation is just obvious. So happy to see it gone. I didn't mind the mechanic itself, but it's just some useless button that does nothing but make you a bad player if you don't press it once every minute.

WoD doesn't feel different, save for the spec mish mash. Too many active talents and the removed spells being moved into talents that are currently the best in their rows (MI, bomb) plus some new spells (Amplify, PC) don't really do a good job of reducing button bloat.

But I'll say I was okay with the amount of buttons on my frost mage in MoP, still am in WoD. 24 buttons is enough to fit everything now, definitely will be in WoD. Monks for example are horrible in that regard.

[Pizzakid2093]

not really going to matter in WoD will it?

[LocNess]

Ice Lance I'm skeptical about because it has no cooldown, deals so little damage, and is useful for pulling, popping totems, getting a stealther out of stealth, etc. Fire Blast I'm glad is gone because it was pointless and something leftover from vanilla.

We definitely have unnecessary clutter (as every class does), but we don't have "too many buttons". Cone of Cold for Fire is most definitely not too many buttons, neither is the option to use AE or Blizzard. Mana Gem and Evocate are, now that we're no longer tied to Mana (even Evocate on Arcane is weird, but I'm guessing if we don't do a burn phase, it's just to prevent us from doing nothing should we lose our mana; could be for a Yor'sahj-like fight?).

This is the first time I feel like they're really removing a lot of useful stuff for the sake of dumbing down the game, and it's upsetting. I was skeptical with the talent trees, though I'm over it and okay with the new design (not the new, stupid, philosophy though). This however is taking it too far.

I do speak entirely for a PvE experience, so I can understand it being helpful in PvP and I do neglect that. However I do not think it is worth having something you can use for a one in a thousand occurrence mechanic PvE wise. And why use Blizzard as a Fire Mage when removing it allows them to make Flamestrike actually competent, give us Blast Wave and Meteor. I think it is more than a fair enough trade. They are not just removing things and not filling it out, they are making each spec more individualised which I fully get behind.

[Sithalos]

"Button bloat" is a myth.

[TheWorkingTitle]

I think we have unnecessary clutter. I can just have them moved on my bars, but I just don't agree with a Frost Mage being able to use Fireblast, or Fire being able to use Ice Lance. A lot of the specs just had their elemental identity pushed in harder and I am completely fine with that.

This is how Mage has been for near 10 years. I find it very odd that anyone would want to support a near complete overhaul of our established Class identity for the sake of this "ability pruning". How long, may I ask, have you been playing Mage?

- - - Updated - - -

I do speak entirely for a PvE experience, so I can understand it being helpful in PvP and I do neglect that. However I do not think it is worth having something you can use for a one in a thousand occurrence mechanic PvE wise. And why use Blizzard as a Fire Mage when removing it allows them to make Flamestrike actually competent, give us Blast Wave and Meteor. I think it is more than a fair enough trade. They are not just removing things and not filling it out, they are making each spec more individualised which I fully get behind.

Bolded part is patently wrong. PvE is not only raids. I use Cone of Cold (as well as Arc Explosion, Blizzard, Ice Lance, and Deep Freeze) constantly in Dungeons, Brawler's Guild, Scenarios, Farming, Solo'ing and I haven't even mentioned PvP where it's absolutely critical for Fire's spec.


Also if it's not part of your rotation (and has more nuanced uses) why would you want to use it? Just take it off your bars while the rest of us can keep using it where necessary.

I do speak entirely for a PvE experience, so I can understand it being helpful in PvP and I do neglect that. And why use Blizzard as a Fire Mage when removing it allows them to make Flamestrike actually competent, give us Blast Wave and Meteor.

Blizzard has uses where Flamestrike (as currently is) will never be able to fulfill going forward. You see (or hear using in-game Sound) a stealthed target perusing around you - you can instantly cast Blizzard repeatedly, covering more area than virtually any other spell out there (and especially within our current arsenal). This goes back to PvP, which you say you neglect (which is a large part of the game).

[Polarthief]

This is how Mage has been for near 10 years. I find it very odd that anyone would want to support a near complete overhaul of our established Class identity for the sake of this "ability pruning". How long, may I ask, have you been playing Mage?

Just because Blizzard "establishes" it doesn't mean you can't disagree with it though. Their design for Fire, for example, is utter crap, yet it's been the same (for the most part) since Lich King.

Bolded part is patently wrong. PvE is not only raids. I use Cone of Cold constantly in Dungeons, Brawler's Guild, Scenarios, Farming, Solo'ing and I haven't even mentioned PvP where it's absolutely critical for Fire's spec.

Agreed, though Fire Blast for Frost has no real use, especially with Ice Lance damage being doubled. Arcane just needs Ice Lance, but sadly that's being removed.

Also if it's not part of your rotation (and has more nuanced uses) why would you want to use it? Just take it off your bars while the rest of us can keep using it where necessary.

Also agreed. They're removing a lot of utility with WoD. Below is the entire list (according to Blizzard and AFAIK), and anything bolded is still useful utility that was removed. (I'm also cutting out a few from the list as it really shouldn't be on the list. You will find those at the bottom of this post)

Arcane Barrage replaces Fire Blast for Arcane Mages.
Arcane Blast now replaces Frostfire Bolt for Arcane Mages.
Arcane Explosion is now available only to Arcane Mages.
Blizzard is now available only to Frost Mages.
Conjure Mana Gem has been removed.
Evocation is now available only to Arcane Mages.
Flamestrike is now available only to Fire Mages.
Ice Lance replaces Fire Blast and is now only available to Frost Mages.
Pyromaniac has been removed.
Shatter is now available only to Frost Mages.
Mage Armor is now a passive effect and is available only to Arcane Mages.
Frost Armor is now a passive effect and is available only to Frost Mages.
Molten Armor is now a passive effect and is available only to Fire Mages.Combustion no longer deals direct damage or stuns.
Frostbolt can no longer be used to heal the Mage's Water Elemental.
Mirror Image is now a level-90 Talent, replacing Invocation.

Temporal Shield has been removed and replaced by Alter Time.
Alter Time is now a level-30 Talent, replacing Temporal Shield.

And while not on Blizzard's official list for some reason: Cone of Cold is replaced by Dragon's Breath for Fire Mages.

Truthfully, I don't feel like we were compensated for this loss by any means, especially when it comes to PvP and solo play.


Weird ones that shouldn't have been posted to the list:

Ice Floes no longer has a restriction on base cast or channel times for spells (formerly only worked on spells with a base cast or channel time of less than 4 seconds).
Ignite now deals the same total damage with a 1 second period (down from 2 seconds). Base duration changed to 5 seconds so that duration when refreshed remains 6 seconds.
Polymorph variants except for Polymorph: Sheep are now all learned as spells and grouped in a flyout on the Spellbook instead of being a Minor Glyph that alters the visuals of Polymorph: Sheep.

[TheWorkingTitle]

Agreed, though Fire Blast for Frost has no real use, especially with Ice Lance damage being doubled. Arcane just needs Ice Lance, but sadly that's being removed.

It's uses are limited I'll be the first to admit, although if you're locked out of using Frost spells due to a counterspell or interrupt, you're going to wish you had Arcane Explosion, Flamestrike, or Fireblast. Another use is when your target is low (mostly in PvP/Arena but also PvE) and they are casting a heal; often time you don't have the extra tenths of a second for your Ice Lance (or Frostbolt) to travel through the air and need the instant-ness of Fireblast to score that kill or push back their spell just enough for a teammate to finish them off. When you Arena/PvP often, you'll realize more and more where these tenths of seconds become vital.

Just as an aside; a by-product of this realization is further growth of disdain for Hunters as their arrows travel through the air faster than our spells (and you realize even further how important instant cast spells can be).

Also agreed. They're removing a lot of utility with WoD. Truthfully, I don't feel like we were compensated for this loss by any means, especially when it comes to PvP and solo play.

So many are just completely neglecting PvP and solo-play when looking at these changes. I get that they might not like to do these things but they make up large portion of over-all Mage Game-Play. This is the first expansion I may not play due to these changes and I love all things WoW.

[Polarthief]

Just as an aside; a by-product of this realization is further growth of disdain for Hunters as their arrows travel through the air faster than our spells (and you realize even further how important instant cast spells can be).

Scorch vs Fireball also shows me this when it comes to Hot Streak. I'm aware of the issues with spells that fly vs instant hitters, but that's a very, VERY specific situation you said about Fire Blast, and not one that comes often.

So many are just completely neglecting PvP and solo-play when looking at these changes. I get that they might not like to do these things but they make up large portion of over-all Mage Game-Play. This is the first expansion I may not play due to these changes and I love all things WoW.

*Nods* It's pretty sad how much of a disregard Blizzard is having towards Mages (for yet a second expansion in a row) in general. These changes just cripple us massively in nearly all aspects of play except direct raiding (which still gets affected through not having Alter Time as a baseline, or TS as a talent; plenty of other cases, too).

[Daffan]

Frost Mage is fun as hell

compared to a Destro warlock it's funny

its like 4 (Destro) buttons vs 10 (frost)

[TheWorkingTitle]

Scorch vs Fireball also shows me this when it comes to Hot Streak. I'm aware of the issues with spells that fly vs instant hitters, but that's a very, VERY specific situation you said about Fire Blast, and not one that comes often.

Specific, yes. "Having no real use", no.

*Nods* It's pretty sad how much of a disregard Blizzard is having towards Mages (for yet a second expansion in a row) in general. These changes just cripple us massively in nearly all aspects of play except direct raiding (which still gets affected through not having Alter Time as a baseline, or TS as a talent; plenty of other cases, too).

Maybe when more Mages start playing Beta (or PTR soon) this awareness/realization will increase. All of my PvP Mage friends are beside themselves about these changes. Til then, I can't even play Beta anymore (due to being turned off by these changes). Guess we'll just have to keep spreadin' the word.