Glaring issues with latest tuning patch for elemental.

[Tweakhead]

The point is that Molten Earth is purely passive, whereas Overload needed action taken before it proc'd. I dont know if you follow Shaman posts at all, or do you just like if people repeat themselves over and over again?

Passive means without interaction...

Elemental Overload worked like:
Cast Lighting Bolt(Action) grants a % chance of Overload(Reaction)

Molten Earth works like:
Cast Lighting Bolt(Action) incite the earth around you to come to your aid for 6 sec.(Reaction)

There is nothing passive about these things. Unless we only have to look at a target and it attacks... THEN its passive.
So please stop calling it a passive ability.

And yes i have played a shaman for 8 years now...

[Irisia]

What does it matter if our mastery is passive or not? The fact is that the old and new mastery will give us exactly the same amount of interactive play during combat, which is nothing by the way.

Lavaburst is like ele's signature spell, why would you not want it to hit significantly harder than your other spells?

And why does it have to hit harder? If it's one of our signature spells, then it should be resposible for a significant portion of our total damage, which it does.



You have two options, less damage but more frequent use, or more damage and less frequent use. The latter is called Chaos Bolt, the former is and always has been Lava Burst. Also, this is from a heavy movement boss with as much mastery as I could get. Lava Burst would have done more damage if I didn't run around so much.

[desert-wind]

I wasn't going to join in on this thread but I did just have a bit of a giggle at this. You are literally saying:

Elemental Overload is not passive because you have to use an ability to activate it, and if you do nothing, it does nothing.
But Molten Earth is passive despite the fact that you have to use an ability to activate it, and if you do nothing, it does nothing.

Pulling the whole "BUT IT LASTS 6 SECONDS" thing is silly. Instead of our abilities replicating themselves, they now add what is essentially a 6 second DoT that requires refreshing by actively using your abilities.

Can you not understand the difference? Playing any way at all, shock on cd, spamming nothing but LB, playing perfectly, all of them result in the same amount of damage from this source. Think about crit, it is a passive stat, but obviously if you don't attack you won't crit. Our mastery is similar, it just does what it does, there is no active component.

Our current mastery only procs off LB and LvB, and it is better if it procs off LvB, therefore the more LvB we cast, the more output we get from it, therefore we ACTIVELY impact how much damage we get from it.

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Whether Molten Earth does 2%, 20% or 90% of our damage is not going to change how the rotation works, ergo, how fun or engaging the gameplay is. So what does that have to do with anything?

And by extension to everybody else - what does it even matter how much of your damage is passive if the gameplay is enjoyable? If 40% of my damage is passive and the other 60% is based on my actions as a human being, then that 60% of my damage will be better than the 60% of someone who isn't as good as I am, and that's how you distinguish good from bad. That 60% could be any figure and it wouldn't even matter.

I understand the argument of it being underwhelming, but if the gameplay doesn't change then I don't see how it matters what portion of the damage is passive for casters. (I can understand it for melee and hunters, after thinking about it, since they work very differently to casters)

Because the game would not be interesting to me if I didn't have to actually play my character to perform ? Why not just script a bot to do heroic encounters and just watch it like a movie?

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What does it matter if our mastery is passive or not? The fact is that the old and new mastery will give us exactly the same amount of interactive play during combat, which is nothing by the way.


And why does it have to hit harder? If it's one of our signature spells, then it should be resposible for a significant portion of our total damage, which it does.



You have two options, less damage but more frequent use, or more damage and less frequent use. The latter is called Chaos Bolt, the former is and always has been Lava Burst. Also, this is from a heavy movement boss with as much mastery as I could get. Lava Burst would have done more damage if I didn't run around so much.

As to why do we want LvB to hit harder ? because it is one of the few reactional / skill based components to the class, the harder it hits, the more your skill matters, i.e. rewarding gameplay. Molten earth, which as per your image is competing with LvB is not engaging or rewarding for skill at all. Also where did you get that breakdown from ? Really seems like you're not playing optimally, I guess that explains why you prefer new mastery...

The point is you would get max output of mastery just by playing. it is passive because u don't do anything specific to get anything from it. Overload rewards better gameplay, molten earth rewards not being afk.

I'm really unsure at this point if people are actually not understanding or trolling.

If you're actually at your computer in a raid you will obviously press something every 6 seconds... yes you need to press SOMETHING to activate it, but you will be doing that anyway that is why it is passive. The difference between a good and a bad ele is using the correct abilities more often or actively playing the character better, overload rewarded this better game play, molten earth does not.

Even if you disagree with my usage of the word passive (believe me it is an accurate description) it doesn't matter... You should still be understand the difference between skill reward for playing with overload and ME. Molten earth contributing such a huge portion of damage is terrible.

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Passive means without interaction...

Elemental Overload worked like:
Cast Lighting Bolt(Action) grants a % chance of Overload(Reaction)

Molten Earth works like:
Cast Lighting Bolt(Action) incite the earth around you to come to your aid for 6 sec.(Reaction)

There is nothing passive about these things. Unless we only have to look at a target and it attacks... THEN its passive.
So please stop calling it a passive ability.

And yes i have played a shaman for 8 years now...

So crit / multi-strike are active? Because none of your abilities can crit unless you use them? Overload has an active component because it only works with certain abilities, i.e. what you use impacts the benefit it gives you.

Crit either crits or doesn't same with multistrike on every ability.

[Chubathingy]

Wow, so much of the same talk we have been having for months...

I can say it again as well ! The new mastery is going to do X dmg per min unless you are a vegetable not pressing any buttons. The old mastery did X(% of mastery) per spell cast, so the guy who gets more casts is... You guessed it, did more dmg. BUT I would say, with ULB our mastery was fairly passive, as ALL masterys are/have been/will be. Mastery for every class is a tuning knob.

The actual "glaring issue" with this build is how amazing(read was over tuned) ES's dmg is. As currently ESing with like 1stack of Lshield is more dmg per global than LvB is. But I don't see it as much of an issue to get worked up over since Celestalon knew(was informed by people who know how to math) 5mins after the patch went up and he agrees something needs to change so we aren't ESing during ascendance...

[Tweakhead]

So crit / multi-strike are active? Because none of your abilities can crit unless you use them? Overload has an active component because it only works with certain abilities, i.e. what you use impacts the benefit it gives you.

Crit either crits or doesn't same with multistrike on every ability.

Something about apples comes to mind now...

[Deleted]

Can you not understand the difference? Playing any way at all, shock on cd, spamming nothing but LB, playing perfectly, all of them result in the same amount of damage from this source. Think about crit, it is a passive stat, but obviously if you don't attack you won't crit. Our mastery is similar, it just does what it does, there is no active component.

Our current mastery only procs off LB and LvB, and it is better if it procs off LvB, therefore the more LvB we cast, the more output we get from it, therefore we ACTIVELY impact how much damage we get from it.

Lmao, this was just comical. You're just looking for ways to try and be right. I forgive you for it though, 'cause that's what MMOC people do.

There are two types of abilities: Active and passive. Active requires you to activate something. Passive is an effect that happens regardless.

Earth Shock is active.
Fulmination is passive (it's an effect that occurs after casting Earth Shock).

Lava Burst is active.
Lava Surge is passive (it's an effect that occurs on DoT ticks).

Lightning Bolt is active.
Elemental Overload is passive (it's an effect that occurs after casting an ability).

Unleash Elements is active.
Molten Earth is passive (it's an effect that occurs after casting an ability).

There is literally not a single thing you could do to convince me that Elemental Overload is even remotely an active ability lmao. It's like saying "But 254,254,254 is TECHNICALLY black because only 255 is fully white!"

Because the game would not be interesting to me if I didn't have to actually play my character to perform ? Why not just script a bot to do heroic encounters and just watch it like a movie?

Like I said, whether 10% is passive, or 40% is passive, you still do exactly the same thing to make up the remaining 90%, or 60%. And that percentage is what separates good from bad.

[Chubathingy]

The point he is trying to make is that with the 5.4 Mastery better uptime(spells casted per fight)/spell selection(use of procs) makes for more dmg per Mastery. That is not going to be the case with the 6.0 Mastery.

But as long as 6.0 mastery is tuned to the point that we don't want it(worse then MS/Haste/Crit by a wide enough margin to make up for lost spells due to movement), it will be a fine tuning knob.

Currently on Beta I think its to good of a stat, since it seems like most of the Mythic bosses have plenty of sporadic movement going on(which they promised wouldn't be the case btw..)

[desert-wind]

Lmao, this was just comical. You're just looking for ways to try and be right. I forgive you for it though, 'cause that's what MMOC people do.

There are two types of abilities: Active and passive. Active requires you to activate something. Passive is an effect that happens regardless.

Earth Shock is active.
Fulmination is passive (it's an effect that occurs after casting Earth Shock).

Lava Burst is active.
Lava Surge is passive (it's an effect that occurs on DoT ticks).

Lightning Bolt is active.
Elemental Overload is passive (it's an effect that occurs after casting an ability).

Unleash Elements is active.
Molten Earth is passive (it's an effect that occurs after casting an ability).

There is literally not a single thing you could do to convince me that Elemental Overload is even remotely an active ability lmao. It's like saying "But 254,254,254 is TECHNICALLY black because only 255 is fully white!"


Like I said, whether 10% is passive, or 40% is passive, you still do exactly the same thing to make up the remaining 90%, or 60%. And that percentage is what separates good from bad.

Again, arguing whether or not you think passive is the right word is not relevant, current mastery rewards better play, new mastery rewards the ability to not be afk. The skill component of the class is dropped.

Your final line is exactly what the problem is. If 100% of my damage is caused by me doing the right spells, and I am 80% effective then I will do 80% of my damage. If I am playing a class with 50% guaranteed passive damage, (likely to occur at some point based on what we've seen so far) and I play at 80% effectiveness, then I will so 90% of what my class is capable of. The issue here is that the larger the passive contribution the easier it becomes for a shaman playing sub optimally to appear to be playing well, and the class becomes a 'noob' class. Once mastery is around 50%, and believe me some people are going to work this out and stack it... even the worst shaman will be better then an average player in another class. I think it would be generous to say that your average lfr player at the moment is doing 50% of what their class is capable of.

I'm not ok with my class having a lower skill cap to the extent that about a 3rd of my damage on release requires no input from me whatsoever.

Based on the total sum of your posts that I have seen over the last week or so, you're either bating / trolling me or an idiot, as such I'm going to do my best to ignore you, and if you are not trolling, probably just stay out of threads because you are lowering the intelligence of the people around you and hurting me from repeated face-palming.

[Deleted]

I'm not ok with my class having a lower skill cap to the extent that about a 3rd of my damage on release requires no input from me whatsoever.

Then gear for multistrike instead of mastery.

[desert-wind]

Something about apples comes to mind now...

I assume you mean apples to oranges ? I'm saying your logic is that because you use an ability for it to occur it is active. Multistrike and crit will not occur without using an ability and infact any ability. This is not what differentiates something being active / passive. Passive = not involving visible reaction or active participation. You do not need to do anything additional to get full benefit out of new mastery, playing the class and being present in a poor fashion still yields 100% mastery damage.

I've said it enough times but once more... Instead of nitpicking the fact that you think passive is being used incorrectly, the fact that our class has a 30%+ skill-less component of dps is bad for the class.

[Zixan]

I think molten earth is a great mastery, and there are still entertaining ways to play elemetal.

Remember Molten Earth is being added into Elemental. nothing is being taken out in its regards.