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  1. #561
    At the time, the seventeen former members of Blizzard Entertainment had a desire to "do anything but WoW", "In fact, most were excited and overjoyed to try and start over, this time, not making the same mistakes that might have been made before."

    ^Quote from Wildstar wikipedia. They made basically all the same mistakes Vanilla wow did.

  2. #562
    As much as I'd like to see a new MMO worth playing, I do like seeing the uber fan bois either in complete denial or realize just how wrong they were.

    You can never tell how good an MMO is before its released, but you can most certainly tell how bad it will be.

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Strakha View Post
    They made basically all the same mistakes Vanilla wow did.
    Now that's not fair. They made plenty of new mistakes too.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  4. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyese View Post
    DaoC, EQ, and FF11 still have subscribers and are operational. I think FF14 was made to be sustained off 300k subs, and its production values are pretty good (the voicework is cringeworthy and definitely not ToR-level).
    Japanese VA is quite good actually. Common problem with a japanese games (and anime).

  5. #565
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyese View Post
    DaoC, EQ, and FF11 still have subscribers and are operational. I think FF14 was made to be sustained off 300k subs, and its production values are pretty good (the voicework is cringeworthy and definitely not ToR-level).
    Sure, once you got all the fixed costs behind you and not much to add, you can run a server in your backyard for quite some time.
    But convince investors about making a new game like that? Pretty hard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Strakha View Post
    They made basically all the same mistakes Vanilla wow did.
    Considering a lot of Wildstar devs were working on vanilla wow, that is unsurprising >__<
    MMO player
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  6. #566
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Considering a lot of Wildstar devs were working on vanilla wow, that is unsurprising >__<
    Just about every MMO and RPG that has come out in the last decade has involved former Blizzard employees that worked on WoW. It's not really indicative of anything good or ill. What is ironic is that Wildstar devs had said at one point (which they never should have) that their game was 'WoW done right'. Well....that turned out well for them.
    BAD WOLF

  7. #567
    Herald of the Titans Darksoldierr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelimbror View Post
    Just about every MMO and RPG that has come out in the last decade has involved former Blizzard employees that worked on WoW. It's not really indicative of anything good or ill. What is ironic is that Wildstar devs had said at one point (which they never should have) that their game was 'WoW done right'. Well....that turned out well for them.
    *giggles*

    Indeed
    Time is on our side
    Brutal Gladiator Enhancement Shaman *rawr*

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobosan View Post
    I find it somewhat pathetic that people are taking delight in the lesser magnitude of successes of MMO's outside WoW. It's the same juvenile mentality that gets people into fights over sports teams, as though supporting one uncaring brand is somehow superior to the other. Blizzard doesn't care if you wave its banner and piss on WIldstar/ESO/etc, so act a bit more mature already and realize that ANY competition is good for a gaming market.

    Games themselves are what you make of them--there's some kind of fun to be had in most, and few if any are what we'd call perfect experiences. Games like Bioshock or The Last of Us come to mind as being pretty close to perfect in terms of immersion and gameplay, but then again, these weren't MMO's. And perhaps, therein, lies the problem. Every MMO that has come out for a decade now uses WoW as a metric to compare itself to, for sub numbers, revenue, gameplay style, etc. I feel that the MMO market would be better served by individuals who realize that good money comes, not from cheap gimmicks and trite repetitive mechanics, but from GOOD GAMES. It's not about trying to please every single person's tastes (and in the process, pleasing no one). It's not about "innovating" by taking things that work and trying to break them for the sake of banality masquerading as creativity. It's about taking what already works great, and improving on it if possible. It's about creating a beautiful, interactive world that feels REAL, both as a setting and as a vessel for the storytelling that should always be put at the forefront. It's about empowering the players through fun, dynamic combat, meaningful questing, and opportunities to feel unique.

    In short, a good game is meant to sell you an experience, an opportunity few get in real life--the chance to be an important hero (or villain!) in a world where your actions have deep and far-ranging consequences. I brought up The Last of Us earlier because it did all of the things I described--it created a beautiful, haunting, and realistic world, with a compelling story that made you actually care about your role and the lives of the characters around you. It didn't innovate on combat--point and shoot was still point and shoot, with a fairly standard cover mechanic. But it didn't need to, because the combat system already worked. It didn't try too hard to create a ridiculous backstory--zombies, check, post-apocalypse, check. But what it did within the boundaries of an otherwise conventional set-up was draw you in and make you feel like you were right there in the action.

    WoW, ESO, WIldstar--none of these really do that. When's the last time you actually CARED about someone "dying" in WoW? How much more interesting would it be if you actually got to know characters, on a personal level, with some becoming traveling companions who actually affected your story? How much longer would you play if, instead of being forced into mindless fetch quests, each new task you were sent on had genuinely high stakes for you and the story, where failure was an actual possibility with consequences for you and your partners? How much more time would you spend in a game world that looked and felt like it could actually exist, where turning the wrong corner in a dark forest could uncover new mysteries or perils entirely by accident? How accomplished would you feel if, instead of arbitrary numbers on gear, your progress was measured by the number of scars on your character, the way NPC's react to him or her, the amount of responsibility they have (newbies won't get sent to kill dragons after all, but veteran fighters might) or the way his or her gear changes in relation to their status, job, and purpose within the world they occupy?

    Just food for thought. I don't think any MMO can succeed by trying to beat WoW, not be WoW, or be WoW without changing. We need a developer willing to create a game that gets back to the roots of what makes a fun, immersive experience, without worrying about the buzz words of the day or the identities established by those brands which came before.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Or we can all go back to fetching coyote teeth off the many (apparently) toothless coyotes, while simultaneously complaining about how there's no good games out there and continuing to support the ones that fail to evolve. To each their own.
    Not everyone has a complex where they have to be the main hero or villain. I'm happy just being a soldier.

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by Bastila-Shan View Post
    MMOs are DEAD! I will never ever play a MMO again. The last time there was a good MMO was WoW in 2008.
    your boyfriend is getting his own expansion pack tho!
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by ministabber View Post
    lessons learned from wildstar and eso ? .....don't start game threads on a wow based forum!
    Just because people have criticism about a game you like doesn't mean everyone just bashes it, but it is easier to act like a victim.

  11. #571
    Titan Tierbook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    your boyfriend is getting his own expansion pack tho!
    He needs it after not being able to get it up for a year.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I'd never compare him to Hitler, Hitler was actually well educated, and by all accounts pretty intelligent.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by Khorm View Post
    Not everyone has a complex where they have to be the main hero or villain. I'm happy just being a soldier.
    Agreed, although, in my case I prefer being a mercenary and most of the time that's how I play. I'm not a fan of being put in the 'loyal soldier' role any more than the "hero". It's probably the biggest reason I didn't fall in love with the AD faction in ESO. You are squarely under the queen practically from the word go.
    "We must now recognize that the greatest threat of freedom for us all is if we go back to eating ourselves out from within." - John Anderson

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobosan View Post
    By definition, MMO games are designed to place you at the center of the action. Even being "just a soldier" in such a game puts you in a heroic role. Characters in WoW are technically "just soldiers", but your actions are meant to appear heroic and have far-ranging consequences. Also note I said "important", not "main", so please don't make attempts to twist words for the sake of inflaming the thread. A cop who protects his city is important, but he may not be the chief of police. A soldier who protects his squad and earns promotions is important, but he's not a General. Important=/=main.

    If the above concept doesn't appeal to you, games like Call of Duty are perhaps better suited to your tastes--just shooting and general fighting, no real plot or importance to your character. As I said, MMO's cannot, and should not, try to meet everyone's specific personal tastes--other genres exist for that..
    Quite condescending, though I love a good Battlefield game.

    I agree with your first paragraph thought the Soldier would rather see his unit promoted and rewarded over any individual awards. The 7th Legion area in Dragonblight is the best area in the game. Other people however cry that even though they've killed Illidan and the LK and etc that it is below them to pick up bear arses. I didn't say this is the way it should be, I did say 'not everyone' implying that people are different to me.

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobosan View Post
    You used incendiary language and intentionally altered the words I used to try and support an unnecessary argument, which is a poor way to facilitate constructive conversation.
    How did I alter your words?

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobosan View Post
    By replacing "important" with "main" and then trying to attack that as a point of contention. It was a rather trite debate tactic commonly called a "straw man" and it is often used on these forums as a means to incite needless conflict for the sake of someone's personal amusement. Regardless of whether or not it was intentional, it was in the past, and new points have been made with communication strengthened. Moving on!
    Haha, really champ? I quoted your whole article just for reference to what I was replying to in general and then said my own words.

  16. #576
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Wildstar didn't implement any casual content. Simple as that. Once you were done screwing around with your house there wasn't anything else to do between raid times. Rep grinds that didn't reward anything of any significance don't count either.

  17. #577
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelimbror View Post
    Just about every MMO and RPG that has come out in the last decade has involved former Blizzard employees that worked on WoW. It's not really indicative of anything good or ill. What is ironic is that Wildstar devs had said at one point (which they never should have) that their game was 'WoW done right'. Well....that turned out well for them.
    That's because the concentration of ex-WoW devs in Wildstar must have reached a critical point. :P
    And which is why, as you say, they tried to do a "WoW done right", with predictable results.
    MMO player
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  18. #578
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    That's because the concentration of ex-WoW devs in Wildstar must have reached a critical point. :P
    And which is why, as you say, they tried to do a "WoW done right", with predictable results.
    Turns out they were ex-Blizzard employees for good reason.

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravasi View Post
    Turns out they were ex-Blizzard employees for good reason.
    That's not really fair, but I think you know that.

    WildStar's problems appear to be twofold. First, the people in charge didn't have a good handle on what the market actually wanted. And second, they appear to have had problems with managing the development effort.

    All of this is sourced from the very top. The people under them could have been skilled and experienced at what they do and I suspect it wouldn't have helped.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  20. #580
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That's not really fair, but I think you know that.

    WildStar's problems appear to be twofold. First, the people in charge didn't have a good handle on what the market actually wanted. And second, they appear to have had problems with managing the development effort.

    All of this is sourced from the very top. The people under them could have been skilled and experienced at what they do and I suspect it wouldn't have helped.
    Well, the "peons" are pretty good; but as you said that doesn't change the fact that there are many systemic flaws. It remains to be seen how much of it they can fix.

    Carbine (and other developers) also missed a lot of good opportunities to cut down development effort without sacrificing quality or quantity. Hopefully the next generation of MMOs will learn and improve even on these "minor" things.

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