No Melee

[jtstormrage]

Melee are better when the raid has to move. Much better.

When there is no movement, ranged have no advantage. Melee can do the same sustained dps.

Single target and AOE damage, and the ability to soak are spread across the classes. The best soakers are probably Monks and Rogues (melee).

On some fights there is multi-dotting, but on others there is cleave. It evens out in the end.

As always, melee are better at add control (stuns, interrupts, slows etc).

Melee mostly have better burst (although ranged can do fine as well).

There are very few mechanics where the melee are at a disadvantage. Thok is more or less than only fight I can think of in current tier (during kite phase only – although melee have a massive advantage during aoe phase).

There are a lot of fights where ranged have more work to do than melee (e.g. Sha, Galakras, Shamans, Malkorok, Spoils, Paragons, Garrosh).

In terms of raid utility, there is little overall difference. Some melee are just unique and have unique raid utility, just as ranged do. Locks have gateways and DKs have Gorefiends. There is raid utility everywhere.

TLDR: They are balanced in this tier. OP is just plain wrong (I play a Rogue).

[Gumboy]

and this is one of the core reasons most people prefer ranged - cause most layers really are terrible at avoiding mechanics so in order to actully kill bosses people choose the path of least resistance and stack range //shrug good melee players never have it hard to get into kills - its the weak melee who re sit out all the time.

it really has nothing to do with them being terrible players, if avoiding things is easier and you get back to your normal rotation faster as one, that one will be superior.

[Asiel]

In WoD as I've seen it so far on Beta, the big thing for DPS as a whole (both ranged AND melee) is uptime. Finding clever ways to do mechanics while maintaining the best uptime on the boss will be the determining factor of who does the most damage on any given fight. As a melee, that means reducing the amount of time you spend away from the boss. As ranged, the time you spend moving. They aren't really the be-all, end-all anymore.

[DemoBytom]

Melee are better when the raid has to move. Much better.

Not currently in Mists, unless you raid with only Shadow Priests.. And I don't remember a fight where you had to DPS the boss while being on big, long move.

When there is no movement, ranged have no advantage. Melee can do the same sustained dps.

True.

Single target and AOE damage, and the ability to soak are spread across the classes. The best soakers are probably Monks and Rogues (melee).

Hunter with double deterrance would stomp on WW monks..

On some fights there is multi-dotting, but on others there is cleave. It evens out in the end.

Most ranged nowadays have ways of cleaving as well.

As always, melee are better at add control (stuns, interrupts, slows etc).

Except for interrupts that's also spread amongs both mele and ranged.

Melee mostly have better burst (although ranged can do fine as well).

Isn't one of the highest (single target) burst specs ATM an affliction warlock? Destro that banked his Chaos Bolts also would come very high.. Hunters with all their CDs, stampedes and whatever?..

There are very few mechanics where the melee are at a disadvantage. Thok is more or less than only fight I can think of in current tier (during kite phase only – although melee have a massive advantage during aoe phase).

We 2 heal most fights with Mistweaver, who counts as mele when it comes to mechanics..
ToT:
jin'rokh - you need ranged to deal with the Focused Lightning orbs. It only targeted ranged, so we needed at least 2 ranged + healer, otherwise it could target tanks.
Horridon - with more and more shit on the floor, on 3 out of 4 doors you wanted to be spread out it was much easier with ranged that didn't have to watch out whether or not the frost orb was thrown on them for ex..
Council of Elders - you need certain (again 3? not sure) number of ranged to not get sandstorms on Sul..
Tortos - it's a mele nightmare if you don't have enough ranged to kill the spinning turtles fast enough..
Megaera - easier to spread as ranged and not have fire dropped on mele, but overall it really didn't matter what comp you had. It's a healer fight.
Ji-Kun - in 10 man it didn't matter that much, I think..
Durumu - didn't matter that much since you could DPS him from Orgrimmar ;P You needed good mele though, to run away from the boss before life drain, otherwise it was impossible to intercept the beam (so many wipes cause of that ;()
Primordius - You could kill that with 10 holy priests prolly xD
Dark Animus - In last phase there was so much shit all over the place that stacking up wasn't viable. The more ranged the easier it was to actually spread out around him.
Iron Qon, P1 - with more than 2 mele it was becoming hard to not stack for his Unleashed Flame. Also you needed 3 groups stacking and unstacking, meaning you needed far more ranged than mele.
Twin Consorts - snorefest, though ranged could nearly stand still all the time, while mele had to follow the sun bitch. Snorefest still :P
Lei Shen - You needed certain amount of ranged to not get thunderstrucks in the mele range.. Counted by proximity so in theory could be done by mele (but they'd loose a lot of DPS). Our best soakers for intermission were hunters, who could soak double static shocks with deterrances..

SoO:
Immerseus.. Please.. wake me up after it's dead..
Protectors - doesn't matter that much, spreading out to avoid spinning kick/Suns AoE prist thingy helps healers though.. Also that poison on the floor.. With more mele I had to move He so much more :/
Norushen - doesn't matter that much.
Sha - doesn't matter that much. On HC you want to spread out and raneged would loose less DPS running.. Still doesn't matter that much.
Galakras - doesn't matter that much.
Iron Juggernaut - you want to spread out. Doable with lot's of mele though.
Shamans - in theory doesn't matter that much. In practice the less ranged you have the more likely you're to wipe cause some shit hit the fan and snowballed onto your tiny mele group all stuck behind 1 boss with tiny hitbox.. Also you want someone competent on those blobs and again - it's easier for ranged to just kill them before they reach anyone..
Nazgrim - doesn't matter that much
Malkorok - you need certain amount of people at range to not get knocked up into the air.. Heard heroic was nightmare if you had to many mele (not sure though)
Spoils - WTB more ele shammies ;P You need few ranged to not get bombs on you, but it's a 5 man fight so it doesn't matter.
Thok - Hunters. That's a fight for hunters.. P1 punishes casters, P2 punishes mele. Hunters have fun all teh time.
Siegecrafter's - sawblades - you NEED at least 3 ranged classes (mistweavers don't count) in 10 man or else you'll be having sawblades thrown at tanks/mele. It
checks by class, not proximity so, if like my guild, you 2 heal with MW - you need at least 2 more ranged that stay 100% on the platform.
Bugs - their hitboxes are small. You get lots of mele in very tiny areas, meaning most of the mechanics hit you harder (fire lines?) or flat out screw you (charges onto mele all the time).. It's a shit fight, and the more you spread out the easier it gets.
Garrosh - again, need at least 3 ranged for defiled weps. Although I have to say that since our healers got geared and more comfortable with the fight mele don't hurt so much. At progress we needed everyone but tanks to run away from whirling corruptions, meaning mele were loosing DPS there.. Today I like to have around 2 maybe 3 mele for interrupts, but we've done it with only 1 ranged and it wasn't that bad.


Now, except for Garrosh - all those fights are more or less equally hard with heavy ranged setup. But if you swap around, they become so much harder and flat out punishing for mele heavy groups.
I remember our tries with mele only on Iron Qon or Klaxxi.. The pain of seing 3 mele go SPLAT! at once wasn't funny :/

There are a lot of fights where ranged have more work to do than melee (e.g. Sha, Galakras, Shamans, Malkorok, Spoils, Paragons, Garrosh).

And the fact that:
a) you need those ranged to do those things, or otherwise get shit thrown into the face and die
b) ranged still are coming equally in DPS to mele
means that mele are less welcome..

TLDR: They are balanced in this tier. OP is just plain wrong (I play a Rogue).

This tier is better than ToT, that's for sure. But truth is that still mele are on a weaker side when it comes to distributing raid spots. And ranged are preferred by pretty much any raid leader for almost any fight.

[Gumboy]

The simple fact of the matter is, there is a harshness point that gets worse and worse the more melee you have, even if you still have less melee then ranged. The more melee you add=the harder the fight gets, on several fights.

[Raiju]

There are a lot of fights where ranged have more work to do than melee (e.g. Sha, Galakras, Shamans, Malkorok, Spoils, Paragons, Garrosh).

ANYONE who uses this argument as a point against ranged viability / ranged being brought to raids has no place in such discussions. It's bordering on blind to not be able to see that the reason the ranged have to do more work on those fights is because they are doing tasks that are difficult/impossible/inefficient for melee to do. Otherwise melee would just do them as well or instead.

We haven't had a frequent interrupt requirement this entire expansion that couldn't be covered by ranged. We haven't had it since firelands in fact? I think they thought heavy interrupt requirements were a bad idea after nefarian (although that was more mechanics + a lot more manageable with the change to interrupts not requiring hit cap). I haven't fully looked at WoD bosses but haven't heard anything of frequent/numerous interrupt requirements.

Even ignoring warlocks a good burst ranged can be mentioned for every melee. It's even here.

Melee are not better when the raid has had to move this expansion (exception: spriests), why on earth do you think this is changing so drastically?

Monks soaking is situational, dispersion has been the king of soaking since its implementation because it doesn't get ignored like bubble/IB do. Surely having raided in cataclysm you'd remember a shadow priest was considered the standard for soaking impales? Doing it any other way was just making it hard on yourself (like bringing melee generally is - so maybe this point is ironic to bring up). This expansion the mechanics have favoured warlocks and hunters for soaking. I can see an argument for monks being at least comparable to these classes.

As touched on above, every fight where there is a mechanic that is of significant benefit to the raid to have a ranged handling is a melee disadvantage. It seems strange you mention garrosh when your own class is often touted as *THE MELEE* that does things better than ranged here? (engineers / stars)

Raid utility is indeed everywhere. If anything I'd say ranged were slightly lighter on raid utility but that can be just due to the density of pures among them (which is also being addressed next expansion). The hybrid ranged and warlocks certainly had bucketloads of it.

TL;DR not only does nearly everyone in this thread disagree with you, but so does blizzard based on the changes they've made to ranged for WoD. I will leave number tuning as a consideration not evidence - but right now they seem to have intentionally tuned ranged lower than melee on patchwerk.

[pkm]

The only melee that seems to be worth bringing is rogue. Just by being rogues they can benefit to the raid. Cloak of shadows to bypass dangerous mechanisms. Dispel like for sha and thok. Still got cheat death if shit hits the fan. Then there is also feint which helps immensely with aoe damage. Though the only problem with feint is it uses energy.

Oh tank is down? Np rogue can evasion tank till he is back up.

[Manabomb]

Yes, random mmo champion poster, you are the god of knowing everything about what is preferred!


Or, you could actually look at the games mechanics right now, and realize that as of right now, ranged>>>>>>>>>melee, and it is not even close. Can it be done? Yes, no shit, it can be done. Would it be a lot easier with more ranged then melee? Obviously.


"Except for very few fights" you bring a balanced comp. We did not say every single fight. We mentioned a couple fights. And yet you have to be arrogant about how your melee are so awesome, its pretty hilarious.

- - - Updated - - -



Isn't it funny how everyone but the extremely arrogant person is saying basically the same thing? Probably super mad that casters are getting mobility nerfed.

Or you know, melee could be good at the game? I mean. Is melee dps harder because it require you to pay an nth of attention more? Yeah, but I'm pretty sure that's the design philosophy of melee since this games inception. You have a much harder time playing than casters because you're melee, but everything you do is extremely bursty and instant cast.

Casters mobility getting nerfed only returned this game to the WotLK world of meleecraft, anyone that played WotLK should be upset over that stupidity.

[PickleballAce]

They're reducing the mobility of all casters in WoD, and by "all casters" I mean Affliction, Demonology, Destruction and Elemental.

[Deleted]

So far after reading most posts in here i can see that either you are a mele and agree with OP (me) or you are a ranged and trying to defend that being ranged is not better in most cases.
To answer some questions, yes in wod they are tuning down the difference with mele vs. ranged. and yes this might fix the issue of bringing melee will make the fight harder. Im not saying that melee is bad vs ranged, what im saying is that the CURRENT raiding tir is designed to favor ranged, and sorry but if you disagree or come with more random examples of you doing soo with 5 melee you are missing the point. It CAN be done yes ofc it can i mean fuck me at this point 10 blood DKs could do it. What I'm saying is that it is not OPTIMAL which means that most raids will not want to run that risk, and why should they? the fact is that the majority of the of guilds regardless of lvl tend to run with a few melee - unless thoes melee players are miles better than the ranged, and often work a lot harder in most fights - they will be left out in favor for more ranged. And these numbers can be seen in most guilds.
I realize that being ranged, and not wanting to hear that your role (class) is easier to play than being melee is a hard blow to that ego, and thus will make you deny any evidence of the opposite.

[rinleezwins]

Some people just prefer to play melee, and a reasonable guild will always have 5 or more melee dps so that no gear goes to waste and your overall raid dps is min-maxed. However, I do k that melee should be doing ~5% more dps than ranged or something like that, just to compensate the range requirement(I find playing a melee class much harder than a ranged one). Melee are more vulnerable to taking accidental damage and they required more healing in the past, but currently with all the smartheals they don't really require any special attention when healing. I do agree that this is an issue and should be addressed. It's a similar issue to some classes/specs bringing zero, or barely any utility to the raid, but they are still being used just because there is gear that drops just for them(hunters are a good example).

[Raiju]

Or you know, melee could be good at the game? I mean. Is melee dps harder because it require you to pay an nth of attention more? Yeah, but I'm pretty sure that's the design philosophy of melee since this games inception. You have a much harder time playing than casters because you're melee, but everything you do is extremely bursty and instant cast.

Casters mobility getting nerfed only returned this game to the WotLK world of meleecraft, anyone that played WotLK should be upset over that stupidity.

You mean when mages absolutely DESTROYED anyone without a shadowmourne? And the melee who couldn't get shadowmourne were pretty shit?

Yeah totally world of melee craft. vanilla was meleecraft. TBC had popular specs in both categories.

[Acidbaron]

In WoD as I've seen it so far on Beta, the big thing for DPS as a whole (both ranged AND melee) is uptime. Finding clever ways to do mechanics while maintaining the best uptime on the boss will be the determining factor of who does the most damage on any given fight. As a melee, that means reducing the amount of time you spend away from the boss. As ranged, the time you spend moving. They aren't really the be-all, end-all anymore.

Pretty much it's all about finding the best way to get up time as melee, if you want a greater challenge you're often better off sticking with melee, you decide for that handicap but that does not mean that despite the handicap you'll do that much worse then you're ranged counter part if any.

They have done a lot to improve target swapping and reducing the damage loss from disconnects on fights for melee classes.

[Deja Thoris]

So far after reading most posts in here i can see that either you are a mele and agree with OP (me) or you are a ranged and trying to defend that being ranged is not better in most cases.
To answer some questions, yes in wod they are tuning down the difference with mele vs. ranged. and yes this might fix the issue of bringing melee will make the fight harder. Im not saying that melee is bad vs ranged, what im saying is that the CURRENT raiding tir is designed to favor ranged, and sorry but if you disagree or come with more random examples of you doing soo with 5 melee you are missing the point. It CAN be done yes ofc it can i mean fuck me at this point 10 blood DKs could do it. What I'm saying is that it is not OPTIMAL which means that most raids will not want to run that risk, and why should they? the fact is that the majority of the of guilds regardless of lvl tend to run with a few melee - unless thoes melee players are miles better than the ranged, and often work a lot harder in most fights - they will be left out in favor for more ranged. And these numbers can be seen in most guilds.
I realize that being ranged, and not wanting to hear that your role (class) is easier to play than being melee is a hard blow to that ego, and thus will make you deny any evidence of the opposite.

I think that most of your OP is bullshit. Bad raid leaders have the perception that lots of melee is bad, that doesn't mean its true. I can't think of a fight bar Malkorok where a lot of melee is a stumbling block and we did that on HC with 3 melee on progression. A balanced team is generally a good thing so you have a roster with an ability to suit all situations.

Also, statements like "melee work a lot harder in fights and unless they are miles better they will be left out", thats just conjecture / opinion.

Anyway, show me where the current tier favours ranged except for a couple of niches like blobs on Shamans (which our dps warrior handles fine). Also, what level of rankings are you looking at here? I mean outside of top few hundred the difference isn't enough to matter.

[Alroxas]

So far..<snip>

Basically, you're saying that this is a QQ thread then because you're only really concerned with CURRENT tier and the most optimal setup for SoO fights.

Whereas, several posters (myself included) have shown that Blizzard sees this disparity between Melee and Ranged and are attempting to fix said issue in WoD through the reduction of DPS while being mobile for all ranged DPS classes (except Hunters).

So much for not being a "QQ" thread then.

[cFortyfive]

My problem is - and the purpose of this thread, is to understand why the game is balanced around ranged dps being better in every way?

Well they had a pretty dumb but effective solution this addon for the issue with melees being simply not targeted by shittons of abilities.

Casters mobility getting nerfed only returned this game to the WotLK world of meleecraft, anyone that played WotLK should be upset over that stupidity.

Strange I remember it being world of wizards.

Whereas, several posters (myself included) have shown that Blizzard sees this disparity between Melee and Ranged and are attempting to fix said issue in WoD through the reduction of DPS while being mobile for all ranged DPS classes (except Hunters).

To what extent that happens remains to be seen.

[Trubo]

Having more tanking classes isn't the same as having more people who play tanks. Honestly, I expect the number of people who play tanks to come down in 6.0 with the removal of vengeance. No more #1 dps tank anymore.

Insane tank damage is due to fights being designed/outgeared such that they could be solo tanked. Use two tanks plus Blizzard's original strategy for the fight and you'll see tank damage plummet with respect to actual damage users.

[CptAwesome]

and this is one of the core reasons most people prefer ranged - cause most layers really are terrible at avoiding mechanics so in order to actully kill bosses people choose the path of least resistance and stack range //shrug good melee players never have it hard to get into kills - its the weak melee who re sit out all the time.

Wow, you must be super cool. It's a pity your faux elitism just makes you look silly.

It's nothing to do with skill when you have a boss like Thok who runs around half the fight and can also bug out and eat random people near him, also Blackfuse; if a mine fixates a warlock he loses zero dps, a melee has to run away from it and can't dps that specific mine. There's hundreds of examples of mechanics that just punish you for being melee and your bullshit about good players getting into kills just shows you've never been anywhere near the top end of the progression curve.

[kamuimac]

It's nothing to do with skill when you have a boss like Thok who runs around half the fight and can also bug out and eat random people near him, also Blackfuse; if a mine fixates a warlock he loses zero dps, a melee has to run away from it and can't dps that specific mine.

did siegecrafter as melee both on belt and on main platform - yes u need to be careful with mines but its complete utter bs that u cant dps them - as long as u are not the one fixated by first mine and mines are stuned correckly u should have no problem dpsing them - nd be honest even if u loose a bit of uptime 5-10 secodns on 2 waves of mines will not resoult in u wiping on this boss unless u were doin it extremly undergeared in world top 200 guilds and on thok yes u loose dps while he fixates but u gain more dps on stacking phase unless ur stacking your raid team with hunters to get a kill.

[Promdates]

Insane tank damage is due to fights being designed/outgeared such that they could be solo tanked. Use two tanks plus Blizzard's original strategy for the fight and you'll see tank damage plummet with respect to actual damage users.

You're partially right, but if you give tanks the option of doing dumb things to increase their damage... they will do it. "Intended" or not.