How England(UK) hides and manipluates its real Murder rate

[Oktoberfest]

Wouldnt it be nice if a government just once, reported factual statistics instead of editing and falsifying them to create a more happier number? Is that too much to ask?
Cant we all just agree that its time we demand our countries stop lying to us about any stats? Dont you want to know the real truth about numbers? i sure as hell do.

http://rboatright.blogspot.com/2013/...der-rates.html

[Deleted]

Must be covering up for those pesky Bulgarian and Romanian immigrants...
Poor people are born criminals, UKIP has the statistical data to prove it too!

[Oktoberfest]

Must be true if a random Blogger on the Internet says so

How would you know when you clearly didnt even read the article to begin with?? Really man? 30 seconds after I posted you replied? At least PRETEND you read it


This is the newest craze in society today. 'debunk' or criticize an article without even reading it just because you dislike either the source or headline. Idiocracy here we come.


"A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce, or a tragedy, or perhaps both."-James Madison

"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
Thomas Jefferson

[Tradu]

So having a different way of tracking murder rates = manipulating and hiding things? The UK only counts murders they're certain are actually murders, while the US counts any dead body that wasn't an accident as a murder.

[Blueobelisk]

Can you summarize what the actual manipulation is, or what is being reported differently?

[vep]

I was under the impression that conspiracy theories thread aren't allowed on MMO-champ?

[Oktoberfest]

Does anyone ever actually read anything anymore or is everyone limited to headlines and cliffnote versions ?

The article clearly explains how England manipulates data to intentionally lower its murder rate for appearances.

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I was under the impression that conspiracy theories thread aren't allowed on MMO-champ?

Its not a conspiracy theory LOL> The guy lists all the facts in the article with govt sources . ROFL.

[Tenris]

Oh no the Government are lying to us, they have never done that before.
By reading the article it seems the UK Government goes for a innocent until proven guilty policy whereas the US goes for it's usual shoot first ask questions later policy. Not saying it's murder until someone is actually convicted of that murder makes sense to me. Since the laws regarding firearms are so different in the two countries a lot more people are murdered in the US than the UK.

[Tradu]

Can you summarize what the actual manipulation is, or what is being reported differently?

In the US, the FBI counts anything that isn't a suicide or an accident as a murder, even if the murderer is never found.
In the UK, only cases where somebody was convicted for murder are counted as murder.

And of course that means the UK is manipulating things, rather than just not jumping to conclusions without evidence.

[Mayhem]

Does anyone ever actually read anything anymore or is everyone limited to headlines and cliffnote versions ?

The article clearly explains how England manipulates data to intentionally lower its murder rate for appearances.

you mean, by adding 172 murders from decades to one year? could you quote the article where it´s clear that england manipulates data intentionally?

[Elegiac]

In the US, the FBI counts anything that isn't a suicide or an accident as a murder, even if the murderer is never found.
In the UK, only cases where somebody was convicted for murder are counted as murder.

Which is entirely reasonable given presumption of innocence.

[Deleted]

Only counts proven murders as murders.


Seems to make sense to me.

[Deleted]

Does murder require intent in the US? Because it not doing so is the only way I can imagine the US way of calculating its 'murder' rate makes sense.

[Elegiac]

Does murder require intent in the US? Because it not doing so is the only way I can imagine the US way of calculating its 'murder' rate makes sense.

Murder requires malice aforethought, yes.

[Xs]

Innocent until proven guilty springs to mind.

[Oktoberfest]

So if some guy gets stabbed to death it should only be counted as a 'murder' as long as they catch the guy AND successfully prosecute?

ROFL you cant be serious.

[Elegiac]

So if some guy gets stabbed to death it should only be counted as a 'murder' as long as they catch the guy AND successfully prosecute?

ROFL you cant be serious.

Precisely, because we have this thing called presumption of innocence. Unless a verdict of guilty for murder is delivered it is not, by definition, murder but at worst manslaughter.

[Deleted]

So if some guy gets stabbed to death it should only be counted as a 'murder' as long as they catch the guy AND successfully prosecute?

ROFL you cant be serious.

It should be recorded as a homocide but not as a murder, no. Why? Because you cannot know of the situation thus you cannot prove the intent is present or that none of the special defences exist.

It's a homocide yes but until you can prove it's a murder it should not be recorded as such.

[Mayhem]

no no, of course not, because we only have these legal defnitions: murder, accident, suicide
self-defence is something totally unheard of it seems

[Deleted]

Does anyone ever actually read anything anymore or is everyone limited to headlines and cliffnote versions ?

The article clearly explains how England manipulates data to intentionally lower its murder rate for appearances.

- - - Updated - - -


Its not a conspiracy theory LOL> The guy lists all the facts in the article with govt sources . ROFL.

Basically, the UK only counts murders only if someone is actually convicted of murder, whereas the US counts a murder for any death that is not suicide or natural causes, which is a weird way of counting it imo. Also, I'm not sure if the UK figures count manslaughter, I suspect those might be slightly different again.

From the blog:

"In 2011 329 people died from "assault", 27 by poisoning (not suicide or work related), 361 by strangulation (not suicide), 127 by non-accidental or suicidal drowning, 7 with guns, 2 with explosives, 20 by stabbing, 62 pushed from a high place, 21 run over, and another 198 of "other specified events in various places" ."

These are figures from the death register numbers, the author effectively concludes that that is the same as the US murder figures and that there were actually 1154 murders in the UK instead of 636 as the Home Office figures say in 2011.


He doesn't however, seem to analyze that some of these figures could be counted as suicide. Some of those people may not have been pushed from a high place, but jumped, most people being run over is accidental and therefore manslaughter. It even says that some of the people drowning might be suicide. A lot of these could potentially be counted as manslaughter rather than murder which could very well be counted in different figures to murder figures. Because that is what is decided after a fair trial and official government figures use the final judgements to calculate the figures.

That is not manipulating data, more about giving accurate figures after all court procedures have gone through and final judgements have been cast.