Question About Firebirds and Weapon Damage.

[Cheekun]

I'm actually a pretty well geared wizard in Seasonal and its a blast. I have my complete firebirds set and am running the usual hydra/blizzard spec running with about 127% fireskill damage. That being said. I'm wondering about the value of weapon damage for the firebird's dot.

Firebird's set gives you a dot stacking up to 3000% of weapon damage based on fire damage you deal. Cake right? well.. not really. I recently crafted a devastator with around 250~ more weapon dps then my current burning axe of sankis. which has around 2.2. my new weapon has 2,417 dps roughly and a perfect 20% fireskill damage roll over my axe which has 19%. Thing is, it didn't roll int. It rolled AS, its about a 2% sheet dps loss.

Experienced wizards out there, is 200~ weapon damage trump out the 2% sheet dps? I know eventually i'll want to get a Furnace but for now im trying to eke out every bit of damage i can get.

I sit at roughly 2.2 million dps with fireskill damage factored in. I also have around 45% elite damage bonus.

[Deleted]

http://www.diablofans.com/builds/105...rd-video-guide
See the comments below, they talk about how AS is not affecting the firebird dot and provide a formula about how the game calculates weapon damage for 1hand and source

[Deleted]

I would say the 1% more fire dmg would make it (just very slightly) better. My fire DPS is very close to yours as well, using a Maximus though :P

[Cheekun]

I would say the 1% more fire dmg would make it (just very slightly) better. My fire DPS is very close to yours as well, using a Maximus though :P

See that's part of my dilemma. Fire skill % damage is multiplicative not additive. Meaning +1% fire skill damage is worth less at 120% then it is at 100% then it is at 75% and so on. I'm wondering if it becomes less and less valuable beyond a certain point and what that cutoff is. The person above you kindly reminded me (albeit indirectly) that black damage is the only thing that matters into factoring the firebird dot and not AS. So i should really be rolling for only high % weapon damage and maybe additonal flat damage that can roll as a affix onto weapons.

[Deleted]

I'm answering you indirectly not because i 'm bored or anything, but because i don't want to give you false information or something!

I'll answer again indirectly and provide you with yet another link :P
Go here and check your character: http://www.diabloprogress.com/
On the bottom of the page you'll see how 1% of everything increases your dps based on your current gear. Again, you'll have to ignore AS based on your current build

[fartman69]

I'm actually a pretty well geared wizard in Seasonal and its a blast. I have my complete firebirds set and am running the usual hydra/blizzard spec running with about 127% fireskill damage. That being said. I'm wondering about the value of weapon damage for the firebird's dot.

Firebird's set gives you a dot stacking up to 3000% of weapon damage based on fire damage you deal. Cake right? well.. not really. I recently crafted a devastator with around 250~ more weapon dps then my current burning axe of sankis. which has around 2.2. my new weapon has 2,417 dps roughly and a perfect 20% fireskill damage roll over my axe which has 19%. Thing is, it didn't roll int. It rolled AS, its about a 2% sheet dps loss.

Experienced wizards out there, is 200~ weapon damage trump out the 2% sheet dps? I know eventually i'll want to get a Furnace but for now im trying to eke out every bit of damage i can get.

I sit at roughly 2.2 million dps with fireskill damage factored in. I also have around 45% elite damage bonus.

One handers do not really work very well for the firebird dot as they generally have low average damage and are faster and weapon speed is not factored in for the dot damage. Even with the best 1h/offhand combo (with both of them having fireskill on it) you will actually see more overall damage from a decently rolled maximus or ideally furnace because 2handers average damage can go up to and above 3500.

Also sheet dps is not a good indicator of really anything either, as some of the top wizards have under 1million sheet dps (pre firedamage) and still can do more damage then I do, in the later torments.

Also you have an insane amount of fire damage, are you sacrificing your other stats for fire damage? (such as crit, crit damage?)
What do you usually farm GR rift# and torment #?

[Cheekun]

One handers do not really work very well for the firebird dot as they generally have low average damage and are faster and weapon speed is not factored in for the dot damage. Even with the best 1h/offhand combo (with both of them having fireskill on it) you will actually see more overall damage from a decently rolled maximus or ideally furnace because 2handers average damage can go up to and above 3500.

Also sheet dps is not a good indicator of really anything either, as some of the top wizards have under 1million sheet dps (pre firedamage) and still can do more damage then I do, in the later torments.

Also you have an insane amount of fire damage, are you sacrificing your other stats for fire damage? (such as crit, crit damage?)
What do you usually farm GR rift# and torment #?

I have yet to have a maximus or furnance drop, so i've been rolling a firebirds source/burning axe for 39% fireskill damage from my combo alone. My primary concern now is if I want to use my SoJ with 28% elite damage (it rolled insanely well) I'd have to give up my royal grandeur ring as well. Easy enough but if i go two hander as well i'd give up my set source. Meaning i'd have to give up my magefist, and my cindercoat to use a unity with my SoJ if i go 2 hander.

Rough.

And Generally no, i have like 47% crit (before passives) and 370% crit hit damage i believe?
I farm torment #6 and around Grift #30~31 (but this was before i had a unity drop last night).

[Tyrean]

See that's part of my dilemma. Fire skill % damage is multiplicative not additive. Meaning +1% fire skill damage is worth less at 120% then it is at 100% then it is at 75% and so on. I'm wondering if it becomes less and less valuable beyond a certain point and what that cutoff is.

Umm, I might be wrong but I think that is the opposite of what it means. Multiplicative skills mean it takes all your other stuff and then multiplies it by the percentage. Additive means it just adds to the total. So if I have two passives, one that adds 20% damage and one that multiplies by 20% damage, the one that adds will be super strong when I am first gearing up, but will taper off as I have more and more % damage increase. The one that multiplies will start weak, but scale up super fast as I add more and more damage.

For example, a DH has two passives that work like this. Cull the weak multiplies by 20% when things are slowed, steady aim adds 20% damage when things are not close to you.

So let's say I am right out of the gate and have no bonus damage and we are not looking at anything else (like crit/dex,etc.) and for simplicity all other damage bonuses are additive only.

(1k * 20%steady aim) * 20%cull the weak = 1440. If cull the weak were additive it would be 1400, so it is a 2.8% increase.


Now add in some bonus elite and elemental damage

1k * (20% steady aim + 20%elite + 20% elemental) = 1600

Now, if cull the weak were additive it would be 1k * (20 +20+ 20+20) = 1800, but cull the weak is multiplicative, so it is actually 1920. Which is a 6.7% increase.


So as your damage goes up from other sources, additive bonuses tend to drop off in effectiveness versus multiplicative bonuses.

[Lolsteak]

One handers do not really work very well for the firebird dot as they generally have low average damage and are faster and weapon speed is not factored in for the dot damage. Even with the best 1h/offhand combo (with both of them having fireskill on it) you will actually see more overall damage from a decently rolled maximus or ideally furnace because 2handers average damage can go up to and above 3500.

Also sheet dps is not a good indicator of really anything either, as some of the top wizards have under 1million sheet dps (pre firedamage) and still can do more damage then I do, in the later torments.

Also you have an insane amount of fire damage, are you sacrificing your other stats for fire damage? (such as crit, crit damage?)
What do you usually farm GR rift# and torment #?

I disagree, i've been rolling with Sunkeeper / Firebirds Source and it's completely viable, i believe the highest GRift Wizard even used 1H & Source up to around GRift 40, ofcourse 2h is better however 1h is nothing to laugh at.

[fartman69]

And Generally no, i have like 47% crit (before passives) and 370% crit hit damage i believe?
I farm torment #6 and around Grift #30~31 (but this was before i had a unity drop last night).

I usually solo around the same if not higher and your stats seem much higher then mine, and I don't use the unity, you use Conflagration no? I haven't really tried it but I am a big fan of evocation and dominance for soloing the harder stuff maybe I will try it out today.


@lolsteak I never said Onehanders were not viable just that for the firebird build the preference should go to a good 2hander to higher average damage and the firebird dot ticking not factoring in attack speed.

[Djuntas]

Yep, furnance makes all the difference. Im sure SS/Devastor/SK can all work, but furnance will clearly outshine them imo. For now Im rolling with a 2.3k SS, witch is okay.

...looted one legendary two-handed mace since patch *yawn*.

[Cheekun]

I usually solo around the same if not higher and your stats seem much higher then mine, and I don't use the unity, you use Conflagration no? I haven't really tried it but I am a big fan of evocation and dominance for soloing the harder stuff maybe I will try it out today.

You use the typical hydra/black hole/blizzard build I assume correct? is evocation's place to reduce the cd on black hole? I also don't particularly like dominance. It's wording never seemed to make it out to be a particularly strong choice.

I use Blur/Conflag/Unstable Anomaly/Unwavering Will

The only passive that i truely feel doesn't always fit is unwavering will, but its great against elite packs and rift guardians as i can park myself away from the action to buff from the legendary gem, get a buff from standing still, and also reduce the damage if frozen/electrified/ etc hits me. Granted, it isn't useful as im running around with my head cut off, but its nice for those circumstances. I may even give dominance a go in its place.

I haven't pushed much past 32 Grifts yet ethier as i had to re-level the correct legendary gems for the build. I was noobish and leveled a ton of other gems up to try them out.

[fartman69]

You use the typical hydra/black hole/blizzard build I assume correct? is evocation's place to reduce the cd on black hole? I also don't particularly like dominance. It's wording never seemed to make it out to be a particularly strong choice.

I use Blur/Conflag/Unstable Anomaly/Unwavering Will

The only passive that i truely feel doesn't always fit is unwavering will, but its great against elite packs and rift guardians as i can park myself away from the action to buff from the legendary gem, get a buff from standing still, and also reduce the damage if frozen/electrified/ etc hits me. Granted, it isn't useful as im running around with my head cut off, but its nice for those circumstances. I may even give dominance a go in its place.

I haven't pushed much past 32 Grifts yet ethier as i had to re-level the correct legendary gems for the build. I was noobish and leveled a ton of other gems up to try them out.

I use the typical build but I dont think I have ever used Unwavering Will because it requires standing still which totally goes against my game play. I prefer to just keep moving and keep pulling large groups and evocation makes blackhole from a 20 second cd to a 12 second cd not counting any other cdr and I find just spamming black hole and blizzard on large packs makes t6 rifts and greaters makes the time go really fast.

Dominance is really good for soloing because you can pull very large packs even multiple elites and not worry as much about thunderstorm and mortar because white mobs just feed Dominance (while for regular t6 content shit it dosent even matter i'd just go with w.e)

The only really change in my build is I dont use Mirror image and I change the Magic weapon rune a lot, because I am using Cindercoat I dont really need to use Conduit.

[Cheekun]

I use the typical build but I dont think I have ever used Unwavering Will because it requires standing still which totally goes against my game play. I prefer to just keep moving and keep pulling large groups and evocation makes blackhole from a 20 second cd to a 12 second cd not counting any other cdr and I find just spamming black hole and blizzard on large packs makes t6 rifts and greaters makes the time go really fast.

Dominance is really good for soloing because you can pull very large packs even multiple elites and not worry as much about thunderstorm and mortar because white mobs just feed Dominance (while for regular t6 content shit it dosent even matter i'd just go with w.e)

The only really change in my build is I dont use Mirror image and I change the Magic weapon rune a lot, because I am using Cindercoat I dont really need to use Conduit.

Dominance officially rocks. It made absolute cheese out of a 31 and 32 rift. Gonna keep pushing till i hit a wall. Dominance + unity, you can literally derp into billions of mobs and teleport out. I only died once in two runs towards the end because i pulled two elite packs together that walled me perfectly into a corner and teleport was on cooldown. Didn't matter because i was 5-6 minutes ahead. Thanks for the tip.

I tried the CDR passive but didn't notice a considerable enough of a difference to justify using it over conflag. Maybe if it rolls onto a hellfire amulet, but for now im sticking with what i have + dominance.

I also don't use mirror image, and I use the magic weapon rune that just flat buffs dps. I did get a awesome pair of firebird's tarsi today that rolled 10% more toughness so i may drop the extra res energy armor for crit chance or try out something else entirely.

[Deleted]

A nice guide about firebird in general: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/top...2562400?page=1

[Gande]

Umm, I might be wrong but I think that is the opposite of what it means. Multiplicative skills mean it takes all your other stuff and then multiplies it by the percentage. Additive means it just adds to the total. So if I have two passives, one that adds 20% damage and one that multiplies by 20% damage, the one that adds will be super strong when I am first gearing up, but will taper off as I have more and more % damage increase. The one that multiplies will start weak, but scale up super fast as I add more and more damage.

-snip-

Multiplicatives can work in both directons. Elemental is a multiplicative, but its a multiplicative diminish. If it was additive 20% would be a 20% net gain whether it was your first piece or your 6th, which is not the case. The more percentage you get the less each point is actually worth in terms of net gain. Multiplicative is a line that curves (in this case towards the x-axis), wheras additive is just a straight line, were you to put them on graphs.


Also, while we're on the subject, do all dots act this way? My witch doctor is curious. I've assumed the answer is yes.

[kenn9530]

evocation makes blackhole from a 20 second cd to a 12 second cd not counting any other cdr.

blackhole as standard is a 12 sec cd so 20% alone would make the cd 9.6 secs, while having it on a lower cd is handy its mostly a waste of a passive.

[Tyrean]

Multiplicatives can work in both directons. Elemental is a multiplicative, but its a multiplicative diminish. If it was additive 20% would be a 20% net gain whether it was your first piece or your 6th, which is not the case. The more percentage you get the less each point is actually worth in terms of net gain. Multiplicative is a line that curves (in this case towards the x-axis), wheras additive is just a straight line, were you to put them on graphs.


Also, while we're on the subject, do all dots act this way? My witch doctor is curious. I've assumed the answer is yes.

Hmm?

Multiplicative:
100 * 10 * 10 * 10 *10 etc

Additive:
100 * (10+10+10+10) etc

Trying to understand what you are saying, played with excel a little

Adding 10% damage multiplicative always increases your damage by 10%, while adding 10% damage additively decreases the more you add.

100*1.1 = 110
110-100/100 = .1
100*1.1*1.1 = 121
121-110/110 = .1

100*1.1 = 110
110-100/100 = .1
100*1.2 = 120
120-110/110 = .09

etc.

[Gande]

I'm going to attempt to link pictures, hopefully they don't fail miserably.







multiplicative means that it curves in an exponential fashion. Exponential doesn't always mean infinitely bigger. Its been a while since i've been in school i'm attempting to find an example.

It has to do with fractions and functions, not just straight 10 times 10 times 10.