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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    There is a fine line, and it's something no military has ever been able to get 100% right.

    If you allow all orders to be questioned, people to demand more information, suddenly they're not orders. Suddenly anything and everything can be called into question, and the very foundations of the military fall apart.

    Like it or not, you're there to execute orders and do your job. If something comes along like; "Shot dead the 100 children" then of course, call that into question, refuse.
    Or for example, find dirt on people so we can blackmail them and possibly ruin their lives.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Emiyo View Post
    Israel has the capacity to end it through diplomacy.
    I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, it's a good read, but I have to highlight this part and say; You're wrong.

    Hamas are not going to want a diplomatic resolution to this unless it involves the conceding of a monumental amount of land to Palestine. Israel aren't going to do that, and I don't really blame Israel to much for that either.

    I agree their expansions over the years has been aggressive and they should hand back some land, but Hamas isn't going to just stop there. They'll demand more and more, and start fighting once more for new demands. Eventually if Israel does start giving in to these demands, you'll see Hamas grow more bold and start working on the extinction of the Israeli people.

    Again; Both sides are equally to blame and it's easy enough to see that Israel has caused a lot of issues over the last few years, even decades, but that doesn't mean that a diplomatic solution is possible.

    Hamas are as far as I can view it a Terrorist group. I genuinely believe they started off as freedom fighters for a good cause, but when you hide behind children, lure Israel into a war that gets tens of thousands of innocents killed in their own home, then I lose all respect for you.

    There are better ways for them to fight, but if they want diplomacy they have to be the ones to instigate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    Or for example, find dirt on people so we can blackmail them and possibly ruin their lives.
    Ruining the lives of your enemy is probably a good strategy.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, it's a good read, but I have to highlight this part and say; You're wrong.

    Hamas are not going to want a diplomatic resolution to this unless it involves the conceding of a monumental amount of land to Palestine. Israel aren't going to do that, and I don't really blame Israel to much for that either.

    I agree their expansions over the years has been aggressive and they should hand back some land, but Hamas isn't going to just stop there. They'll demand more and more, and start fighting once more for new demands. Eventually if Israel does start giving in to these demands, you'll see Hamas grow more bold and start working on the extinction of the Israeli people.

    Again; Both sides are equally to blame and it's easy enough to see that Israel has caused a lot of issues over the last few years, even decades, but that doesn't mean that a diplomatic solution is possible.

    Hamas are as far as I can view it a Terrorist group. I genuinely believe they started off as freedom fighters for a good cause, but when you hide behind children, lure Israel into a war that gets tens of thousands of innocents killed in their own home, then I lose all respect for you.

    There are better ways for them to fight, but if they want diplomacy they have to be the ones to instigate it.
    Hamas are fueled by the desperation of their people. If you start having diplomatic talks, and start to make some real change, they will lose their power. People were against the British negotiating with the IRA, but we did and it worked. Violence eased and splinter groups who formed (once the main group turned away from violence) slowly faded into none existence. If you retaliate with force, all you're doing is helping them.

    Also the labelling of Hamas as a terrorist group isn't really helping. Many groups fighting against oppression were labelled terrorists at one point or another (see SA, The Troubles etc: ). Depending on who you are, they're either terrorists or freedom fighters. So long as you make people see them as the latter, they will continue being violent. We shouldn't be focussing on 'how' they're being violent, but 'why'.

    Edit: I feel the need to write this given what I expect some posters will say. I do not condone the violence Hamas uses, nor do I support them. Understanding the 'why' isn't accepting the 'how'.
    Last edited by mmoc47d1b95331; 2014-09-15 at 02:02 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Ruining the lives of your enemy is probably a good strategy.
    Probably, shooting children is to, if you don't want the next generation coming back at you.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    GUILT!!!!
    Really?

    I wouldn't have thought the world to have taken this course of action based on the information you gave (Citation needed on that, of course). I don't think the world felt a sense of monumental guilt about what happened because of what occured over the next few years was the decimation of Europe, and the fighting for the freedom and rights of all within.

    Not to mention that the majority of people didn't know about the events in Germany at the time of the war. It wasn't until Germany was pushed back that people started to find these concentration camps, the evidence of the holocaust.

    Again, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the main driver was guilt because if that was so, pushing them into their own nation is just another form of segregation and that doesn't seem like something a guilty society / world would opt for.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    Probably, shooting children is to, if you don't want the next generation coming back at you.
    There is a tiny, minuscule difference though between slaughtering 100 children and tapping phones. Just a tiny one though.

  6. #26
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, it's a good read, but I have to highlight this part and say; You're wrong.

    Hamas are not going to want a diplomatic resolution to this unless it involves the conceding of a monumental amount of land to Palestine. Israel aren't going to do that, and I don't really blame Israel to much for that either.
    You're right, but I don't agree with not blaming Israel at all.
    Both are to be blamed. I mean, since 1947 up until today, the Palestinians land got torn to pieces. Leaving a territorial situation that's basically unsolvable.
    On one side we have Gaza, on the other side we have West Bank... Anything around and between is Israel now.
    There's just no way to connect Gaza with West Bank anymore. And the blame has to be put on both, not just one side. Palestinians should have never had their fundamentalists have that much power to try to eradicate Israeli from the region. They've lived together in the region before just fine. And Israel should have never started and continued the land grab.
    And in all of this, we - the West - should have never enabled this kind of ongoing conflict.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    You're right, but I don't agree with not blaming Israel at all.
    Both are to be blamed. I mean, since 1947 up until today, the Palestinians land got torn to pieces. Leaving a territorial situation that's basically unsolvable.
    On one side we have Gaza, on the other side we have West Bank... Anything around and between is Israel now.
    There's just no way to connect Gaza with West Bank anymore. And the blame has to be put on both, not just one side. Palestinians should have never had their fundamentalists have that much power to try to eradicate Israeli from the region. They've lived together in the region before just fine. And Israel should have never started and continued the land grab.
    And in all of this, we - the West - should have never enabled this kind of ongoing conflict.
    Please explain.
    There was no such thing as "Palestinian people" in 1947, therefore no "Palestinians lands".
    Gaza belonged to Egypt until 1967. The west bank was claimed by no country, was invaded by Jordan in 1967 and taken from Jordan by Israel in the same year.
    Palestinians were never a part of the equation regarding both territories.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palemaster View Post
    Please explain.
    There was no such thing as "Palestinian people" in 1947, therefore no "Palestinians lands".
    Gaza belonged to Egypt until 1967. The west bank was claimed by no country, was invaded by Jordan in 1967 and taken from Jordan by Israel in the same year.
    Palestinians were never a part of the equation regarding both territories.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine

  9. #29
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Really?

    I wouldn't have thought the world to have taken this course of action based on the information you gave (Citation needed on that, of course). I don't think the world felt a sense of monumental guilt about what happened because of what occured over the next few years was the decimation of Europe, and the fighting for the freedom and rights of all within.

    Not to mention that the majority of people didn't know about the events in Germany at the time of the war. It wasn't until Germany was pushed back that people started to find these concentration camps, the evidence of the holocaust.

    Again, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the main driver was guilt because if that was so, pushing them into their own nation is just another form of segregation and that doesn't seem like something a guilty society / world would opt for.
    The German election results are historic/public knowledge.
    Back then, much like today, the party programs are open to everyone, and with that said, the World knew very well for nearly a decade that the Jews are a prime target of the Nazis. During the Nazi reign the Anti Jew campaign began in full force. Again, the World was aware...
    How come no one ever wondered where are all these Jews going? Yes, to some degree no one knew.. Even the Germans in Germany has no damned idea.
    The Germans were under the belief how they are deporting these people. No one thought of the concentration camps.

    But here's where I start to struggle.. I am not buying into the World didn't know until they've had Germany invaded.
    You, the allies, are able to find weapon factories that are concealed in the middle of cities and take those out, you are also able to crack the enigma code, which was considered impossible to crack. You were able to spy out supply routes and target those, or at least supply the guerrilla forces with the necessary tools and materials. But you are unable to spot the concentration camps? I am not buying that part.
    Those camps were too big, too much areal to remain undetected.
    Here's some interesting reading... Pay attention to the timelines...
    http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp....IuG&b=394663#7

    Dachau was opened in 1933.. The plan to simply kill them all is believed was made in 1941.....
    That's 8 years of the World watching.. Then add the 1928 elections to it. That's 13 yrs..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palemaster View Post
    Please explain.
    There was no such thing as "Palestinian people" in 1947, therefore no "Palestinians lands".
    Gaza belonged to Egypt until 1967. The west bank was claimed by no country, was invaded by Jordan in 1967 and taken from Jordan by Israel in the same year.
    Palestinians were never a part of the equation regarding both territories.
    There have always been Palestinians as much as Israeli in that zone.. For over 2000 yrs.. Stop trying to be evasive please.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  10. #30
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palemaster View Post
    Please explain.
    There was no such thing as "Palestinian people" in 1947, therefore no "Palestinians lands".
    Gaza belonged to Egypt until 1967. The west bank was claimed by no country, was invaded by Jordan in 1967 and taken from Jordan by Israel in the same year.
    Palestinians were never a part of the equation regarding both territories.
    ahem, you probably want to read this

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#Modern_period

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    snip
    of course the world knew

    prominent example:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_...o_U.S._in_1933
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  11. #31
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    The German election results are historic/public knowledge.
    Back then, much like today, the party programs are open to everyone, and with that said, the World knew very well for nearly a decade that the Jews are a prime target of the Nazis. During the Nazi reign the Anti Jew campaign began in full force. Again, the World was aware...
    How come no one ever wondered where are all these Jews going? Yes, to some degree no one knew.. Even the Germans in Germany has no damned idea.
    The Germans were under the belief how they are deporting these people. No one thought of the concentration camps.

    But here's where I start to struggle.. I am not buying into the World didn't know until they've had Germany invaded.
    You, the allies, are able to find weapon factories that are concealed in the middle of cities and take those out, you are also able to crack the enigma code, which was considered impossible to crack. You were able to spy out supply routes and target those, or at least supply the guerrilla forces with the necessary tools and materials. But you are unable to spot the concentration camps? I am not buying that part.
    Those camps were too big, too much areal to remain undetected.
    Here's some interesting reading... Pay attention to the timelines...
    http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp....IuG&b=394663#7

    Dachau was opened in 1933.. The plan to simply kill them all is believed was made in 1941.....
    That's 8 years of the World watching.. Then add the 1928 elections to it. That's 13 yrs..
    Much of the world was recovering from WWI still. You also have to remember technology back then is nothing like it is now, information generally came from people on the ground and the concentration camps were kept very secret.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    There have always been Palestinians as much as Israeli in that zone.. For over 2000 yrs.. Stop trying to be evasive please.
    That's not explicitly true. Alot of European Jewish people went during the settlements, those who had been living throughout Europe for generations. The Palestinians are more closely related to the ancient people in that area, but I think the Bedouin people are actually the closest related, having lived there the longest. Sadly, the Bedouin people in Israel are being forced to relocate now aswell. The current Israeli people are actually a complete mix of people from all over the world, including some who'd lived there before the settlers.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post


    of course the world knew

    prominent example:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_...o_U.S._in_1933
    Yup... Good point...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Emiyo View Post
    That's not explicitly true. Alot of European Jewish people went during the settlements, those who had been living throughout Europe for generations. The Palestinians are more closely related to the ancient people in that area, but I think the Bedouin people are actually the closest related, having lived there the longest. Sadly, the Bedouin people in Israel are being forced to relocate now aswell. The current Israeli people are actually a complete mix of people from all over the world.
    I said that earlier though already..
    But, we do have a reference, which is, for a change a valid source... The Bible....
    From the Bible records we know the Israelite been to this region. And that happened before Jesus. Puts this into the before 2000 yrs range. The historic accounts pretty much match that of the old testament. Egypt, Palestine(that's more of a family/tribe thing if I am not mistaken now), Israelite. All valid claims.
    in hindsight with a more modern view.... the mess itself is triggered by the Western influence of the region for the last 150 - 200 yrs.
    We've pretty much created a territorial cluster fuck.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    I said that earlier though already..
    But, we do have a reference, which is, for a change a valid source... The Bible....
    From the Bible records we know the Israelite been to this region. And that happened before Jesus. Puts this into the before 2000 yrs range. The historic accounts pretty much match that of the old testament. Egypt, Palestine(that's more of a family/tribe thing if I am not mistaken now), Israelite. All valid claims.
    in hindsight with a more modern view.... the mess itself is triggered by the Western influence of the region for the last 150 - 200 yrs.
    We've pretty much created a territorial cluster fuck.
    You can't really say that, though. In history there was a time where people known as the Israelites lived there, but over time that hasn't been the case. It wasn't a race of people, just a nationality that formed. It's believed they were originally Canaanites who settled the land, but you don't say Canaanites have lived there for 2000+ years. Like I said, the Bedouin are the most closely related, but even they are genetically distinct. It's true to say there has always been people living there, but never one continual sect of people. For example, you don't claim the people living in Italy now are Roman.
    Last edited by mmoc47d1b95331; 2014-09-15 at 03:05 PM.

  14. #34
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emiyo View Post
    You can't really say that, though. In history there was a time where people known as the Israelites lived there, but over time that hasn't been the case. It wasn't a race of people, just a nationality that formed. It's believed they were originally Canaanites who settled the land, but you don't say Canaanites have lived there for 2000+ years. Like I said, the Bedouin are the most closely related, but even they are genetically distinct. It's true to say there has always been people living there, but never one continual sect of people. For example, you don't claim the people living in Italy now are Roman.
    Okay, I see that point...
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  15. #35
    Roman Emperor Hadrian, same guy who built the wall, got tired of the Jew's crap and told his armies, 'erase them from the earth'. This was like 1500-2000 years ago. They didn't manage to kill all the Jews and many escaped to form the Diaspora.

    Ottomans ran Palestine until WWI, then Britain ran Palestine as a colony.

    UN, and many nations voted yes even the Soviets, made Israel a state in what 1950?

    Israel is tiny, it's like the size of New Jersey which is tiny. There's not a whole lot of land to give up.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  16. #36
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    Israel is tiny, it's like the size of New Jersey which is tiny. There's not a whole lot of land to give up.
    there´s also not a whole lot of people living there... what´s your point?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  17. #37
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    Roman Emperor Hadrian, same guy who built the wall, got tired of the Jew's crap and told his armies, 'erase them from the earth'. This was like 1500-2000 years ago. They didn't manage to kill all the Jews and many escaped to form the Diaspora.
    Most of the Jewish people who moved in the Roman Diaspora did so as slaves, it wasn't really escaping.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Ruining the lives of your enemy is probably a good strategy.
    They are not doing it to their "enemy". They are doing it to civilian bystanders, who are simply shit out of luck for being born Palestinian. They tactics like...You need to infiltrate Hamas and spy on them for us, or we won't give you access to that cancer treatment that your dying son/wife/mother needs. Or ...You need to infiltrate Hamas and spy on them for us, or we disclose to your community that you are gay/having an affair. Or simply...Spy on us for Hamas or we deny permits to your businesses and probably going to periodically beat you up in dark alleys, maybe even bomb your house or kill your kids.

    Again they aren't targeting Hamas, they are targeting civilians. These are terror/mob tactics 101.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post

    Israel is tiny, it's like the size of New Jersey which is tiny. There's not a whole lot of land to give up.
    The thing is, this map



    ...is not what the UN voted for. That is not the Israel the UN created.

    This is the map the UN voted for, for Israel and for Palestine



    You might notice the substantial illegal territorial acquisitions Israel made meanwhile to the detriment of the Palestinian State (which by the way is still being blocked by Israel, and which will probably never exist considering that most of the West Bank is no also settled by Israelis.)


  19. #39
    Maybe Israel would still have it's UN-sanctioned borders if they hadn't been attacked by all arab nations?

    They should be glad they have any land left and weren't completely destroyed when Israel had the chance.


    Besides, Hamas is a terrorist organisation. If you have any information on them that they can blackmail you for, you aren't innocent. You're protecting terrorists.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHETERNAL View Post
    A country is spying on an enemy that launches rockets and mortars randomly in a country hoping to kill anyone possible? Shocker.
    The complaint is not about spying, it's about using the results for extortion or blackmail. This reply is willfully obtuse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    There are no 2 species that are 100% identical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redditor
    can you leftist twits just fucking admit that quantum mechanics has fuck all to do with thermodynamics, that shit is just a pose?

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