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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karnak View Post
    Name some significant systems that were more complex in Vanilla than they are now.
    I already did...

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Simplification is evident all over Wow... homogenisation of the classes, reduction of classes abilities, talent tree simplification, linear questing, truncating dungeons, the list goes on.
    Lets add a few more...

    - Gear stats (no more ArP, MP5, resistances etc etc)
    - Class specific questing
    - No more attunements
    - Ques for dungeons and raids rather than travelling to the locations
    - Lowering the level of flying and reducing the cost

    The list goes on... and on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mush View Post
    People aren't denying that the game is being simplified, they are denying the notion that simplification means easy. Or that simplification is a bad thing.
    Absolutely right... but most of the simplifications are also making the game easier. I cant think of any of the simplifications that are making the game more challenging.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    I already did...



    Lets add a few more...

    - Gear stats (no more ArP, MP5, resistances etc etc)
    - Class specific questing
    - No more attunements
    - Ques for dungeons and raids rather than travelling to the locations
    - Lowering the level of flying and reducing the cost

    The list goes on... and on.
    You appear to be confusing convenience with complexity. I suggest a visit to the dictionary.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    You appear to be confusing convenience with complexity. I suggest a visit to the dictionary.
    ???

    Im using Blizzards definition for simplification. They admit theyre simplifying as much of the game as they can and my list of simplifications are exactly what theyre talking about.

    Its u who is obviously confused.

    I agree that some of the simplification is designed to save playtime, but its still a part of the game which has been simplified nonetheless.

  4. #64
    Moderator Crissi's Avatar
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    Man, I was so happy when they merged Healing power and Damage power into a single spell power. Doing Leo the blind was HELL on healers cause we then had to mix gear. Thats "complicated", but only in the negative sense of being a pain in the ass.

    Simplification can be a good thing, because tedious doesnt mean complex, and complex doesnt necessarily mean good or fun.

    Is it possible to oversimplify? yes, but I was there in vnailla with all the different rank of spells and paladin having to buff one at a time and all that idiotic stuff. It was not fun, it was tedious!

  5. #65
    The Lightbringer GKLeatherCraft's Avatar
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    I don't think I've ever read a post where someone said they're not simplifying it, it's always "it was so hard in classic" "it was much harder in TBC" "WotLK was the best balance" etc etc, and now pretty much all I see is moaning about how it's so easy and for "casuals"
    This seems to me one of those threads where the OP may have seen someone mention it, then just referred to that one as "the people" :P

  6. #66
    Mechagnome Krekal's Avatar
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    This reminds me of how the music shuffle wasn't "too random" enough so they made it less random to make it more random and people were happy
    im cool pls respodn

  7. #67
    nobody denies that, im welcoming those changes. finally a loooot more space in my bags, i dont need to have my mats in my bags anymore to craft my stuff, stupid reforging was more a chore and a pointless goldsink than a feature. my actionbars have been overflowing with stupid situational bs for the past 5 years - good they cut some of that stuff! auto-bagsortingfunction, new bagged items highlighted - finally i dont need to get an addon for my bags anymore.

    these changes are awesome and they will make the game a more enjoyable and smooth experience. when people say about what they like about blizzard games, there is one answer that always gets repeated: their smooth combat and gameplay! those changes have been due for years and anybody complaining about them is just a tunnelvision hater.

  8. #68
    The changes are good and necessary.
    Game complexity really does get out of control with every new expansion otherwise. I'm running out of convenient keybindings, and yet every new expansion we get new talents. It's *inevitable* that they have to eliminate some redundant or unimportant talents because of that. New talents keep the gameplay fresh, which is good, but they have to remove something old in return.

    And don't get me started on "uninteresting" cap stats like ArP, Expertise, Hit and so on. It's just annoying after a while. Sure you could think of such things being "good" because it requires more "knowledge" about your character (oh great, you are able to read a guide!). But when you keep in mind that there are so many different ways to increase stats (upgrades, reforges, gems, enchants, professions, race bonuses, ...) then it gets extremely annoying every time you get an item upgrade. Whenever I get an item upgrade I have to change everything around (which costs time and gold every single time), and because things are so complex that you can't compute anything manually anymore, you actually *have* to use an addon like AskMrRobot or ReforgeLite or whatever to prevent over-capping cap stats like hit/exp or any other stat where your spec has a hard or soft cap.

    Do I really have to explain why this is *NOT* good for the game? Neither for newbies (confusing/overwhelming), nor for expert players (annoying/uninteresting/costly).

    And these are just 2 examples (amount of abilities and removal of uninteresting cap stats) where *useful* simplification of certain things is actually *good* (or even necessary) for the game, not bad.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    I see very few people deny that. What most people seem to debate is it being a good or bad thing. (In my opinion, at least 99% of it is a good thing.)
    I'll go farther and say they may not be simplifying it enough.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  10. #70
    I am Murloc! Conscious's Avatar
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    The game is become simple for not just the player, but for the developers as well.

    They've made quite the effort to remove complexities that would elicit continued development as well as support in future iterations of the game. Which is largely pointing towards them getting WoW ready for retirement, and able to be developed for a small audience and income base.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by mrpoundsign View Post
    http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/arms-wa...owns-abilities seems to disagree about rotation complexity. http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/ disagrees about arms being top DPS.

    The largest problem with these kinds of arguments is you get the least informed shouting the loudest.
    The problem with your data is that level 90s are not tuned with respect to level 100 changes. You're also referring to the MoP rotation instead of the WoD rotation.

  12. #72
    I sure am glad that more = complexity.

    E = mc^2.... so easy to understand and use because its simple.

  13. #73
    People should go back a few weeks and read Ghostcrawler's interview after he left Blizzard again if they want to understand what they are trying to accomplish with this game.

    Quite simply the philosophy of this game has become to retain as broad a spectrum of players as possible. WoW does not have much trouble getting new players due to name recognition, but keeping them is a different story. In order to accomplish this they try to simplify the early game experience as much as possible, to the point where anyone regardless of gaming experience can feel successful.

    Unfortunately part of the early game experience is also classes. If you don't think individual classes are simple in this game then you are either in denial or you should really try playing some different games.

    I think they try to satisfy the more experienced crowd in the elder game via raids. The complexity of raids these days is almost all in the execution of mechanics as a group, and not so much in individual responsibility or complexity. I've completed all the heroic content this expansion, and I can say there was never anything where I truly felt that as an individual I was being pushed. Most of the challenge was in the group dynamics of it all.

    So while I think the raids this expansion were pretty good overall, on an individual level I was bored out of my mind most of the time.

  14. #74
    I haven't seen many people denying they are simplifying the game. I've seen people deny they are dumbing it down, which is valid, but denying they are simplifying it is a bit silly.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    I don't know what you're referring to. I don't think anyone can deny that Blizzard has simplified a great deal of mechanics to the game. Gone is MP5, Spell Heal, Spell Damage, resistances, spell type damage, ArP, hit, and expertise. Gear is far more straight-forward than it ever has been. Other aspects of the game have increased in complexity, of course (heroic raid modes, challenge modes, raiding in general, PvP) but the game itself is definitely not what it was in terms of complexity.
    Now we have haste, mastery, multistrike, versatility, revamped talent system with less (granted still too much) cookie cutter specs, glyphs, ect

  16. #76
    The Lightbringer Bosen's Avatar
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    I think if anyone is denying anything, it's the argument that the game is being "dumbed down" rather than streamlined.

    Some think that removing bloat or making the game accessable to all means it's worse and some like feeling like the super elite because they can play with a million buttons and others can't.

    I think that the best will always show that they are the best no matter how streamlined WoW gets.

  17. #77
    Nobody is arguing against the fact that they are simplifying things. They are arguing against the notion that simplicity is inherently a bad thing, and that it reduces the skill cap or fun level of the game. Some of the best games of all time were remarkably simple on paper, and some of them lose their magic as their sequels add more and more gimmick to it. I would take deep simplicity over shallow complexity any day.

  18. #78
    Go do mythic iron maidens testing today and come back and see how easy the game is.

    If you want to argue against streamlining, fine. But by definition pvp has no skill cap and heroic/mythic raiding is extremely hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unmerciful Conker View Post
    What?! They said soon? Well you dont hear that everyday, I dont know about you guys but that has put my mind at total rest.

  19. #79
    Pandaren Monk lightofdawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    Of course they are simplifying the game. I disagree with it being something negative. Pretty much all newer Blizzard games follow the idea of "easy to learn, hard to master". And I like it.
    this is the perfect definition of wow's current/upcoming state i have ever fucking heard... you win, sir
    "Brace yourselves, Trolls are coming."
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  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by lightofdawn View Post
    this is the perfect definition of wow's current/upcoming state i have ever fucking heard... you win, sir
    The powder fortifys the reading.

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