Why is Haste>Crit??

[Bonkura]

but why would you have to ruin the fun

I doubt it's impossible. Sparkuggz posted a video before the extra 8 item levels back in April where he did 5.28 million damage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak19uS33Mxc

[HeaddsDead]

Except that not stacking crit and ignoring your 4 part (otherwise as main speccing affi) you wouldnt get to that number, BBoY even on heroic warforged doesnt provide nearly enough int on the proc to make up that sort of damage, ill believe that when i see it, also get to fuck off your high horse i edited the initial post before you made that cancerous post.

Math / Wow player base

lol i got no reason to lie...its purely your choice on if you would like to believe it or not. so there is that

[Gihelle]

but why would you have to ruin the fun

I doubt it's impossible. Sparkuggz posted a video before the extra 8 item levels back in April where he did 5.28 million damage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak19uS33Mxc

Wasn't he using the t14 4p that got nerfed not long after that video?

[Deleted]

He was ^^ 10 chars ^^

[Cardio32]

His damage in that video has nothing to do with crit vs haste itemization. It has everything to do with stacking ever possible damage modifier. For him to get to that number:


Procs: Jade spirit, tailoring cloak, PBI, BBOY (10 stack), jade spirit potion

Fully raid buffed AND skull banner + tricks.


None of these big numbers matter really. Look at the top locks that rank 99% and you will see there is no difference between haste/crit. What matters is int (from ilevel), trinkets, and mastery.

[Deleted]

And the t14 set bonus, haste vs crit is similiar in dps but crit will almost always net you the damage where you need it which imo anyway makes it the better stat

[Deleted]

Everyone is pretty much in agreement. I'd just like to add some numbers to clarify some of the points.


1. Haste only starts to diminish when backlash + incinerate is less than 1 sec. This happens when you have above 14,100 haste on your gear.

Backlash makes your incinerate an instant cast. I'm assuming you mean backdraft.

Nit picking but may lead to confusion

[Deleted]

Ajay, I don't see why you're getting so mad... BBoY > KTT if same ilvl. You can dump 3 Chaos bolts at 6+ stacks during a BBoY proc, this is even easier if you stack haste. Also during execute you can shadowburn x3-4 on 8 stacks and higher. This alone gives a shit ton of damage, even more if you can cleave your shadowburns. Based on both procs, the BBoY proc is definitely much better than KTT. I haven't done the math to compare the damage increase from the flat stat gain vs multistrike, but I would assume there isn't a big difference.

TLDR BBoY > KTT

Now back to OPs original question. I'd guess on shorter fights, when the raid team is geared, crit >haste because of the bigger opener. The longer the fight gets, the more they balance out. In AoE situations haste will pull ahead of crit and since most fights in SoO are actually multi-target, this is probably the main reason to go haste>crit in general.

So basically

crit > haste ==> When fights are short and single target (Malkorok, Iron Juggernaut).
haste > crit ==> AoE fights, longer fights, easier to switch between aff and destro.

[rinleezwins]

I'll just add in the fact that unlike haste, crit is a bit of RNG stat(all those fire mages and fury warriors complaining about shit procs on pull).

[Deleted]

What exactly makes you think that BBoY (something solid not your opinion) > KTT for destro (because it is strictly worse)

Haste is better for switching between affi and destro.

Crit is better for everything else 'except' sustained aoe damage where you have enough targets to maintain fire and brimstone with haste prio'd in which case the faster casts would be move valuable (there is no aoe like this in siege of orgri anymore due to the gear levels of everyone).

Crit is better in the opener.
Crit is better in the execute.
Crit is better when cleaving.
Crit is bettter for burst aoe.
Crit is better for single target burst. (think 1st transition garrosh if you are doing a pack solo)
Crit is better with the legendary meta.

Some of the stuff in this thread really is mind blowing.

[Deleted]

What exactly makes you think that BBoY (something solid not your opinion) > KTT for destro (because it is strictly worse)

Haste is better for switching between affi and destro.

Crit is better for everything else 'except' sustained aoe damage where you have enough targets to maintain fire and brimstone with haste prio'd in which case the faster casts would be move valuable (there is no aoe like this in siege of orgri anymore due to the gear levels of everyone).

Crit is better in the opener.
Crit is better in the execute.
Crit is better when cleaving.
Crit is bettter for burst aoe.
Crit is better for single target burst. (think 1st transition garrosh if you are doing a pack solo)
Crit is better with the legendary meta.

Some of the stuff in this thread really is mind blowing.

Crit is better for the opener, execute and cleaving.

On the other points, it's very much debatable.
For burst AoE: During 4pc, you'll get probably one cast more with haste reforges over crit. Overall, you'll get much more incinerate casts off with haste reforges. This is not only more consistent (crit=RNG) AoE damage, but also higher AoE damage. In the time you're casting your 0.5 sec slower incinerates, adds such as on shamans are already being sniped by other classes' AoE.
Single target burst: With haste reforges you can go CB>immo>CB during the 4pc proc (skip immo if the target will die soon). With crit reforges it is highly unlikely that you will make this (maybe with a lucky meta gem proc and even if you skip immolate)) This pretty much negates any difference between haste vs crit Chaos Bolt damage.
Meta gem: this is not necessarily true. During meta gem proc, you can delay conflags (unless capped) to avoid GCD capping.

The only time you will actually see a big difference is on pure single target fights, especially when short. But in those scenarios it's best to go Aff anyways.

When it comes to trinkets, I did a comparison above, I'll elaborate with a little maths. There are two parts to compare: the proc and flat stat bonus.
The proc of BBoY is much better vs KTT as explained. 3 Chaos Bolts with 6+ stacks >> 3 Chaos Bolts with KTT (should be obvious, based on int during higher stacks). The gain is even larger when it comes to shadowburns. You can easily get 4 shadowburns at 8-10 stacks.
When it comes to the stats on both trinkets, it's tricky. 18% multistrike vs 1.5k haste/1k mastery. Multistrike is usually around 5% of total damage. Over a 5 min fight with it's about 17-18k of a DPS gain (assuming 375k DPS).
Mastery alone will give 5% gain to chaos bolts and shadowburns. This is usually about 50% of total damage done. This covers 9-10k DPS. The rest will get about 2% damage increase, which is another 4-5k DPS. The haste proc calculations are too annoying, so I won't really bother for now.
So the difference is only 3-4k (when it comes to the stats) and that is before the haste gain is taken into account. Furthermore, BBoY provides a consistent gain, while KTT is RNG dependant.

TLDR; BBoY proc >> KTT proc
BBoY stats vs KTT multistrike: The difference before haste is about 3-4k in favor of KTT. This is probably covered for the major part by the 1.5k haste.

[Deleted]

Burst AoE - When i say burst aoe i mean stuff like sha of pride adds which die in 3 globals, same with adds on shamans, there really is no burst aoe that you will cast any amount of spells on in siege currently.

ST Burst - You forget you can have 6 stacks of backdraft ready for ST burst, ofc its a dps loss to do so, but its what makes the class so strong, being able to prepare for your burst damage is a huge strong point to a spec.

Legendary Meta - Sure you can delay conflags if you havent already used it, but in general you get more milage out of this gem with crit as you do as haste because when it procs as crit its 100% useful.

Trinkets, you are entitled to your opinion, but honestly i dont agree, KTT i find to be amazing for destro because you want consistency with your spell casts, you already have a moderate amount to min max around and the added int from BBoY for chaos bolt really doesnt do as much for it as you would imagine.

I can consistently get 4 million chaos bolts twice in a row under the opener with meta and bloodlust and it just makes it more complex as you should be working around BoI anyway, the theoretical maximum is higher with BBoY naturally, but as for consistency goes KTT is better in practice.

You are ofc entitled to your opinion but i cleared this content at the very begnning of november last year and i know how important it was to have my damage matter when i needed it and trying to maximise casts out of BBoY's proc is not something that i would have welcomed at all, you get a certain appreciation for how much control over your damage you have as destro, maybe thats where my PoV comes from.

[Bonkura]

You are ofc entitled to your opinion but i cleared this content at the very begnning of november last year

Haha. Here's Neverknow of formerly Depraved, now Paragon. World 2nd 10 man Garrosh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FpT5tMFUnw

Let me know if you think he's playing Destro well in this video.

[Deleted]

I dont get it? he is doing the exact same thing i done when i killed this shortly after paragon, what should i be looking for exactly.

He was playing sloppy in that kill, but that happens on progression.

[Bonkura]

#embercapped

[Gihelle]

Furthermore, BBoY provides a consistent gain, while KTT is RNG dependant.

Oh god ahahahahaha

[striderZA]

Oh god ahahahahaha

That argument is too solid.

[roahn the warlock]

One, for the most part, is based off chance
The other isnt.

law of large numbers, that doesn't matter on a 6 min fight.

Though haste, as a rule is better when equal, because you can do shit faster

[FurtyIRL]

Haha. Here's Neverknow of formerly Depraved, now Paragon. World 2nd 10 man Garrosh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FpT5tMFUnw

Let me know if you think he's playing Destro well in this video.

What exactly is this supposed to exemplify?

[Deleted]

When it comes to trinkets, I did a comparison above, I'll elaborate with a little maths. There are two parts to compare: the proc and flat stat bonus.
The proc of BBoY is much better vs KTT as explained. 3 Chaos Bolts with 6+ stacks >> 3 Chaos Bolts with KTT (should be obvious, based on int during higher stacks). The gain is even larger when it comes to shadowburns. You can easily get 4 shadowburns at 8-10 stacks.
When it comes to the stats on both trinkets, it's tricky. 18% multistrike vs 1.5k haste/1k mastery. Multistrike is usually around 5% of total damage. Over a 5 min fight with it's about 17-18k of a DPS gain (assuming 375k DPS).
Mastery alone will give 5% gain to chaos bolts and shadowburns. This is usually about 50% of total damage done. This covers 9-10k DPS. The rest will get about 2% damage increase, which is another 4-5k DPS. The haste proc calculations are too annoying, so I won't really bother for now.
So the difference is only 3-4k (when it comes to the stats) and that is before the haste gain is taken into account. Furthermore, BBoY provides a consistent gain, while KTT is RNG dependant.

TLDR; BBoY proc >> KTT proc
BBoY stats vs KTT multistrike: The difference before haste is about 3-4k in favor of KTT. This is probably covered for the major part by the 1.5k haste.

That math is flawed.

Using your numbers for BBoY, I assume we are talking about hwf gear, so ilvl 585++. I'm sitting at exactly 137% mastery unbuffed, switching to a mastery reforged hwf BBoY puts me to 142.43% mastery. That is a 242.43/237 = 2.29% increase for Shadowburn and Chaos bolt, which would, using your numbers, be a 4.3k dps increase in dps from that part. The "rest" increases from 46.66% to 48.48%, which is a 148.48/146.66 = 1.24% increase in damage, which equals 2.33k dps. That nets a 6.63k increase before haste, which is 11-12k less than the number you gave for multistrike. You also base this off your assumed 375k dps, which is incredibly low. Make that 475k sustained and we can start talking.
[edit: adding the mastery raid buff would further diminish the numbers for BBoY and put multistrike further ahead.]

The procc of BBoY is undeniably stronger than the procc of KTT. On paper. Chaos Bolts are prone to being interrupted due to random movement. That's why the constant buff of the KTT procc has an advantage on some fights, since it makes no difference when exactly during the procc you use your embers. That nice BBoY procc can be cockblocked by a lot of funny things like saw blades on juggernaut/Siegecrafter, annihilate/mind control on garrosh, amber pools/whirling on klaxxi, everything on malkorok, those funny lines on nazgrim etc...

The BBoY wins, but only if you not only luck out on proccs but also on not getting affected by stuff the boss can do to you. The passive bonus on KTT is better, no matter what. Chaos Bolt is a pretty long hard cast, affliction however can always sb:ss.