Feedback on a Loot system for a new 10 man raiding Guild

[Papabaloo]

Hi guys, I`m starting a guild with some friends (we are planing on doing 10 man normal, then heroic content) and I' m currently working on the loot system we are going to use, and I wanted to run it by you and get some feedback on what possible issues it might have, most of us have little to no experience on raiding so any feedback its appreciated.

We decided to go for a Suicide Kings type of system with a few added rules:

1.- Since the changes on Itemization for WoD we are planing on using 2 list, initial position in both assorted by random roll to start. One for every Armor drop (helm, shoulders, chest, wrist, hands, waist, legs, feet and most likely tier set tokens) and one list for non-armor drops (Neck, Back, Rings, Trinkets, and Weapons) some of the reason is to keep players motivated with a chance to a spec specific drop even after wining an armor type drop, and to make easier sorting out which items are competed by on a class spec basis (since for example trinkets wont change stats, ranged dps, melee dps and a healer trinket are more easily differentiated) Having these too tables sounds good in principles but I have the feeling I might be missing something and this might result in a unnecessary complication please let me know what you think of this.

2.- If it is an upgrade, you have to take the item. This rule is added in an effort do distribute loot most fairly, to avoid someone passing on upgrades to hold his position for a possible later boss drop. It seemed simple starting out but again, since the changes to itemization I foresee troubles, how do you determine if the same item is better when one has multistrike and the other has crit, but the person decide to stack haste? sigh again it will be a small guild and at least half of us are friends so I might be just over thinking it but still, any feedback/suggestions on possible problems or solution to this stuff is greatly appreciated.

3.- If an item is passed by everyone (and not being an upgrade for anyone) a loot council will decide what to do with it, being formed by the GM, Raid leader and a random raid member. I was thinking on simplifying this by a set of rules, if the item is BoP and nobody wants it it will be D/E and the items go to the bank for future guild member enchants or sold on the AH and the money goes to the Guild Bank, if its BoE it will be put on the AH and sold for gold to the bank.

4.- Since we will be a small 10 man raiding guild, we are expecting on having some pugs now and again, to solve this we thought on talking to the pugs before hand and having them on the bottom of the list, gaining loot when is not an upgrade for the core team, also doing something similar for trials looking to enter the core team, having a trial period (2 weeks maybe?) were they remain in the bottom of the list. But having no experience raiding I`m not sure if this would be too much to ask or be considered insane/rude.


Any input and feedback you can give me will be appreciated, thanks in advance.

[Deleted]

<SNIP>

The only points I'd particularly comment on are the "having to take the upgrade" and the "pug method".

Having to take an upgrade will probably work if you're only intending to do normal and heroic content, it's certainly far from optimal with BiS gear and the such though, so if you're going into mythic progression then I wouldn't advise it. Although as you stated Normal > Heroic so you should be fine.

With pugs how you should do it, is everyone who can use the item as an upgrade rolls, if any guild member rolls highest then you continue the system as normal with the pugger not being on the list and if the pugger wins then they get the gear. This means they have the same chance they would have of getting the gear, otherwise it will be hard to find pugs and really its not fair for them to only get the 'off-cuts' of the raid gear.

So to Clarify:
> Everyone who needs the item rolls.
> if a guild member wins then you continue the loot system as normal, with the pug member not on the list.
> if a pug member wins then they receive the item.


Ending thoughts: It seems like an interesting loot distribution system that theoretically will distribute gear fairly, although not optimally. Personally I prefer a loot council system where it's just decided who gets the gear, but that's because it is more optimal however can feel unfair to certain members.

[Kurgosh]

The only points I'd particularly comment on are the "having to take the upgrade" and the "pug method".

Having to take an upgrade will probably work if you're only intending to do normal and heroic content, it's certainly far from optimal with BiS gear and the such though, so if you're going into mythic progression then I wouldn't advise it. Although as you stated Normal > Heroic so you should be fine.

"Must take" is going to cause some hard feelings, I agree. Let's take the current tier for instance. I'm in spot 1 on your list, and I've got a warforged weapon. Not my BIS, but still, it's a warforged weapon. Third best out of 4 that drop in the instance. The 2nd best weapon drops, also warforged. I'm forced to take this minor upgrade, still not getting my BIS item, and feeling obligated to spend a bunch of money and valor to get it ready to use. Meanwhile, the 2nd guy on the list, sitting there with an LFR weapon is wondering why he has to continue suffering when he could make excellent use of that drop.

The raid benefits more from letting me pass this very minor upgrade (big DPS jump for the other guy, compared to almost nothing for me), the other guy benefits, and in the long run I probably also benefit by not wasting resources on something that doesn't meaningfully impact my performance.

[rayden54]

With pugs how you should do it, is everyone who can use the item as an upgrade rolls, if any guild member rolls highest then you continue the system as normal with the pugger not being on the list and if the pugger wins then they get the gear. This means they have the same chance they would have of getting the gear, otherwise it will be hard to find pugs and really its not fair for them to only get the 'off-cuts' of the raid gear.

If I were a PuG I'd stay as far away from you as possible.

Jataai's suggestion sounds "fairer" than just sticking them at the bottom of the list, but in practice they're basically the same thing. If something your guild wants drops, everyone in your guild who could conceivably use the item rolls on it--whether they really want it or not--so your guild can funnel it to the right person. The PuG still ends up competing against your whole guild.

[Papabaloo]

Thanks for the responses guys, you present valid points which I`m already discussing with the other members, Rayden and Kurgosh both bring up valid points on your separate points, but again I would like to hear suggestion on the possible issues they pressent.

Kurgosh: in that case how do you prevent SK position hoarding, passing on everything (even upgrades) just to be in position 1 for/if those warglaves of azzinoth drop?

Rayden: I see your point, but, are you suggesting then that a pug has the right to roll for every single item drop it might need? this would certainly put the core team on a statistic disadvantage vs the PuG, on a run a pug could grab 3 items while a raid member just has 1 loot following the SK rules... how would you reconcile this?

[Thagrynor]

Being perfectly blunt, your system sounds horrible. If you are a small 10man guild of friends, a simple "One Need, One Tier till everyone gets something" system would work far better. I have never had a problem with this system in small friendly guild groups. Then even pugs do get a chance at gear. This way, everyone can choose what they choose to Need on. Everything else is Greeded. If no one else needs it, or it is an upgrade but not the biggest, then people will still get the gear. If literally no one rolls for a piece, DE it (since there aren't likely to be a ton of BoE items in there) and do with as you planned (keeping for guild enchants or to AH for guild moneys). This is the system I have mostly always used in small 10man guilds and it has always seemed to work pretty well.

[Deleted]

If I were a PuG I'd stay as far away from you as possible.

Jataai's suggestion sounds "fairer" than just sticking them at the bottom of the list, but in practice they're basically the same thing. If something your guild wants drops, everyone in your guild who could conceivably use the item rolls on it--whether they really want it or not--so your guild can funnel it to the right person. The PuG still ends up competing against your whole guild.

Yeah the problem is it could be abused, although in fairness there isn't really any way around everyone in a guild rolling for an item if one person wants it. I suppose you just hope the guild is honourable, I know whenever my guild had pugs we'd do it in the same fashion, but only the people who genuinely needed the item rolled to keep it as fair for the pug as possible.

- - - Updated - - -

Rayden: I see your point, but, are you suggesting then that a pug has the right to roll for every single item drop it might need? this would certainly put the core team on a statistic disadvantage vs the PuG, on a run a pug could grab 3 items while a raid member just has 1 loot following the SK rules... how would you reconcile this?

You're thinking about this in the wrong way, being a raid team is about everyone in the group. Individually the pug has a better chance of getting more gear than Guild raider x, but overall you're team will receive substantially more gear than the pug will. The idea of gear is to aid progression and so anyone getting gear who is part of your guild raid team is a good thing.

[Papabaloo]

Double post, Better redacted on the second.

[Papabaloo]

Hi Thagrynor could you elaborate on what you mean with "One Need, One Tier till everyone gets something" remember I have 0 experience on raiding.

As a general comment, I don't foresee having any of the problems I`m asking about here, but of the raid guild I'm only friend with 4 other guys, so we will be interacting with at least 5 estrange guys which at least at the beginning I wont know how they will react/act regarding loot so I`m trying to establish a solid system from the get go so I can forget about it later. I`m really not concerned about the loot, only want to enjoy the PvE content but since I`ve already read so many stories of guild disbanding for something as stupid as loot that I just want to have solid guidelines and forget about it.

[Deleted]

Just use personal loot if you have to use pugs, 10man doesn't exist anymore.