RJW all the time?

[Relix]

I've been considering going back to my WW Monk since I found out ours is wanting to tank. My biggest question is about RJW. He says that he pretty much uses it all the time, regardless of the fight as it's all-around better, even over Xuen. Is this true? I haven't played my Monk since ToT much, and it just sounded weird. I couldn't find anything to confirm what he said, but I don't want to just disagree out of ignorance.

Thanks for the help!

ps. 2/4 set tier bonuses.... how good ARE they? He seems to discount them being a big deal. Opinions/facts?

[Totaltotemic]

RJW is an AoE ability. It is only good as an AoE ability, and is in fact a DPS loss to use on a single target. Xuen is about a 5% damage increase on any given fight. If you walk into a fight like Iron Juggernaut with RJW as a talent, you're doing it wrong because there is nothing to AoE.

Now, it could be that he's saying he uses it very frequently, even on fights with just a few adds like Sha of Pride or heroic Malkorok, which is normally considered okay because Xuen isn't a very big DPS increase anyways and RJW allows you to AoE and continue auto-attacking and using other abilities on the boss. But again, fights like Iron Juggernaut (or Siegecrafter belts, or Paragons where you're only actually DPSing one thing at a time) typically call for Xuen because there really isn't much of anything to AoE and Xuen is free damage.

[zoomgpally]

I believe RJW pulls ahead of xuen if you cleave 3+ for most of the fight, torpedo is only useful at all if you need both the extra mobility AND healing from it
Both set bonuses are worth getting, but not having them won't break your game.

[Gaje]

The 2pc is desirable, but the 4pc is frequently dropped for WF gear of the same level.

You should aim for the 2pc at least. It's a definite dps increase.

[Enpoli]

Use RJW any time you can get chi from hitting 3 targets. Even on Paragons it can be more damage than Xuen to the actual kill target, even though you are doing wasted damage to the other two.

For example: Last week 17.2% of my overall damage to Xaril was from RJW (2nd highest damaging ability). We kill him as soon as he jumps down, so it's all effective damage. In the ~55 seconds Xaril was alive RJW did 4.3M damage just to Xaril. Compare that to the 3.9M my opening Xuen did on Iron Juggernaut this week, and that was on the pull with more trinket procs.

RJW is better single target damage as long as you can generate chi with it. It's also nice because you can always use it, not just for 45 seconds every 3 minutes.

[Totaltotemic]

U
RJW is better single target damage as long as you can generate chi with it. It's also nice because you can always use it, not just for 45 seconds every 3 minutes.

No, it isn't. This analysis has been done time and time again for a year now. Saying that RJW was 17.2% of your damage is meaningless because you're wasting 1 chi and Combo Breaker procs every single time you use it. It has never been a single target damage increase, pressing the button at all is a DPS loss even if you happen to have the talent.

[zoomgpally]

No, it isn't. This analysis has been done time and time again for a year now. Saying that RJW was 17.2% of your damage is meaningless because you're wasting 1 chi and Combo Breaker procs every single time you use it. It has never been a single target damage increase, pressing the button at all is a DPS loss even if you happen to have the talent.

Not to mention it becomes even more of a dps loss with the t16 2set

[Gaje]

For example: Last week 17.2% of my overall damage to Xaril was from RJW (2nd highest damaging ability). We kill him as soon as he jumps down, so it's all effective damage. In the ~55 seconds Xaril was alive RJW did 4.3M damage just to Xaril. Compare that to the 3.9M my opening Xuen did on Iron Juggernaut this week, and that was on the pull with more trinket procs.

While it is true that RJW *can* do more dmg on a ST than Xuen, that doesn't make it a dps increase. The true question is: is using RJW more dmg ST than not using RJW?

You would have done more than 4.3M dmg that RJW did if you had just used jab and BOK instead of spending that energy on RJW.

That being said, I usually use RJW to pad my numbers on that fight because we have it on farm, and really don't need the extra dps. For progression though, don't use it on Paragons.

[Relix]

You guys are awesome! Thank you. Appreciate the feedback

[Enpoli]

Assuming you're playing well and all of the extra chi generated by Jab over a RJW is only being dumped into extra BoK.. I disagree that Xuen is better. I know this is anectdotal, but it's also all in context where I was under all the same buffs/procs/etc. So for my Xaril damage I had:

8 RJW for 4.3M -> 537k per cast
13 BoK for 4.5M -> 346k per cast
11 Jabs for 731k -> 66k per cast

So assuming every RJW was instead an extra Jab and 1/2 of a BoK... I would still be left with..
537k - 66k - 173k = 297k less damage done per 40 energy, or about 2.37M over the 8 casts of RJW. Would Xuen do about that much? Probably a little more, I would guess 3.0-3.5M. But I can use RJW much more often than I can use Xuen, resulting in more energy efficiency and overall more effective damage over the course of the entire encounter. Xuen's "burst" potential is his only strong point, and if it's only a 1M difference, I'll take stronger overall damage every time.

[Totaltotemic]

Assuming you're playing well and all of the extra chi generated by Jab over a RJW is only being dumped into extra BoK.. I disagree that Xuen is better. I know this is anectdotal, but it's also all in context where I was under all the same buffs/procs/etc. So for my Xaril damage I had:

8 RJW for 4.3M -> 537k per cast
13 BoK for 4.5M -> 346k per cast
11 Jabs for 731k -> 66k per cast

So assuming every RJW was instead an extra Jab and 1/2 of a BoK... I would still be left with..
537k - 66k - 173k = 297k less damage done per 40 energy, or about 2.37M over the 8 casts of RJW. Would Xuen do about that much? Probably a little more, I would guess 3.0-3.5M. But I can use RJW much more often than I can use Xuen, resulting in more energy efficiency and overall more effective damage over the course of the entire encounter. Xuen's "burst" potential is his only strong point, and if it's only a 1M difference, I'll take stronger overall damage every time.

You're completely ignoring Tigereye Brew and Combo Breaker.

[Enpoli]

Increased Tigereye Brew generation reaches diminishing returns when we already generate enough to have ~10 stacks every time a trinket procs. Sure, it might increase the times we have to use some to prevent hitting 20 stacks, but that will by definition be a time when it is of relatively lower value because it is amplifying less damage output.

Either way, RJW is incredibly close to the same single target dps as Xuen if you can generate chi with it. Maybe I'm just anti-Xuen because he sucks so much that our best AoE talent is pretty much as good as he is.

[Totaltotemic]

Increased Tigereye Brew generation reaches diminishing returns when we already generate enough to have ~10 stacks every time a trinket procs. Sure, it might increase the times we have to use some to prevent hitting 20 stacks, but that will by definition be a time when it is of relatively lower value because it is amplifying less damage output.

Either way, RJW is incredibly close to the same single target dps as Xuen if you can generate chi with it. Maybe I'm just anti-Xuen because he sucks so much that our best AoE talent is pretty much as good as he is.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Xuen, I don't know why you keep bringing other talents up. RJW is a DPS loss over not using RJW even if it generates chi. This means that if you have the talent you should not be pressing the button because you are losing DPS. You do more by not having a level 90 talent at all than you do burning energy on RJW single target. The fact that you can also take Xuen on top of that makes the comparison worse, but no direct comparison between Xuen damage and RJW damage is relevant in the determination of whether or not using RJW when hitting two extra incidental targets so that it generates chi is a single target damage increase.

Whether TEB can be used for all DPS spikes or not doesn't matter, you can't just ignore it. It's still a non-zero DPS increase, therefore it is relevant to the calculation. Subsequently you continue to ignore Combo Breaker's existence, which is even greater with the T16 2p. You have no factual basis for saying that RJW is a single target damage increase at all, it's just spreading misinformation to someone asking for a correct answer.

The correct formula is RJW compared to [Jab + 0.5 BoK + 0.12 BoK + 0.12 TP + 0.25 TEB + 0.06 TEB + 0.03 TEB] or [Jab + 0.62 BoK + 0.12 TP + 0.34 TEB], not just Jab + 0.5 BoK. You can either take my word for it that the Jab side comes out ahead, or you can do the math yourself and just reinvent the wheel, but don't do only half of it and say you've reached a conclusion.