Ignorance, Stupidity & Sheer Incompetence: The Continual Failure of "Modern" MMOs

[ItachiZaku]

My all time favorite MMO is Ultima Online. I started there, it is where I learned about what I wanted in a character. I liked the idea that you could really be anything you wanted, and then change to something completely different... and it was slow. You couldn't just push a button and go from top notch healer to top notch tank to DPS. At the same time, you COULD be all 3 of those things. The housing is easily the best in any game I've ever played. A mule character, nothing but crafting and gathering with a touch of magery to be able to recall around. The dungeon hunters, the farmers, the PVP toons. The only negative is basically what I like about games like Wow/SWTOR and that's the graphics. UO graphics weren't great, but the customization of the gear (dye tubes) made it still pretty awesome.

When you sit in character creation for an hour in ArcheAge but then never really see your character again... what's the point? WoW and SWTOR I love that when you join a group, you know you are in a party with a Tauren, a goblin, a Sith Pureblood or a Twi'lek.

Many of the new MMOs might be clones, but they are always missing something, some measure of comfort that is deal breaking. No LFR/LFD? You lose 60% of your subs. No end game? There goes 50%. No arenas? 80% of your PVPers just left. No transmog, pet battles, open world PVP, events, crafting, housing..... a new game needs to be perfect. None have been.

[zealo]

I wonder why almost no one mentions World of Tanks on this forums as an example.

Can world of tanks even be classed as an MMO? Its a lobby based pvp game afaik.

Planetside 2 is what can be called an mmo when going outside the rpg subsection.

[Edge-]

All mmos are clones of each other, wow is included. The entire genre is dying, and thinking wow is not part of the failures too is pure ignorance.

*sigh* not this argument again.

Do you have any evidence to support this argument? Is MMO revenue declining. Is the global MMO population shrinking? Are we getting fewer games?

Simply because WoW is continuing to shrink (mind you, it's still a BILLION dollar a year game, something that very, very, very, very few games can claim, and no other Western MMO's can even come close to) does not mean the "entire" MMO industry is shrinking.

[mercutiouk]

*sigh* not this argument again.

Do you have any evidence to support this argument? Is MMO revenue declining. Is the global MMO population shrinking? Are we getting fewer games?

Simply because WoW is continuing to shrink (mind you, it's still a BILLION dollar a year game, something that very, very, very, very few games can claim, and no other Western MMO's can even come close to) does not mean the "entire" MMO industry is shrinking.

There seems to be less big name MMO's with seriously innovative features though. The market isn't shrinking but it seems to have matured and got rather stuck in comfortable rut (that not enough people are attracted to).

I can't think of a seriously novel experience in the last couple of years of MMO's. Something like star citizen/E-Dangerous are aiming at might have enough new features to cover their respective niche like WoW has to fantasy RPG. There's the likes of planetside 2 and destiny doing something like a twitch shooter MMO (less-so in destiny's case). Archage is blending mmo with sandbox RPG's (as far as I read it). Don't know what else can be brought into the MMO space. I'm sure we have racing sims done massively?

VR will probably be where it starts getting interesting again (which E-Dangerous and Star Cit are scratching the surface of I guess).

[Fencers]

I am not understanding where is the failure exactly.

Changing business models is not objectively a failure of anything. Companies do it all the time- it allows industries to be dynamic and fluid. As a consumer, one should ideally welcome flexibility in purchase and leasing options.

Most MMOs do not fail their business goals, btw. MMOs can likewise do fine with a subscription model; EVE, FF11/14, World of Warcraft.

[Ugum]

Biggest mistake I see again and again is the failure to recognise the magnificence of three faction PvP/RvR. Dark Age of Camelot and Planetisde are two of my most enjoyable MMO experiences to date and I would put a lot of the credit on the three faction system, the fact that Warhammer: Age of Reckoning didn't have three factions was just insane at the time given the developers heritage and the fact that the lore practically begs for it.

I loved DAoC's 3 faction systems. Most that I've ever enjoyed PvP.

[LazarusLong]

Can world of tanks even be classed as an MMO? Its a lobby based pvp game afaik.

Planetside 2 is what can be called an mmo when going outside the rpg subsection.

It is classified as MMO in most market research papers.

Personally I'm not a fan, but the game is hugely successful ($400m revenue) and has very good implementation of F2P model.


Also, I think that lobby based dungeons and raiding MMO can work.

[Edge-]

There seems to be less big name MMO's with seriously innovative features though. The market isn't shrinking but it seems to have matured and got rather stuck in comfortable rut (that not enough people are attracted to).

What big name MMO's have had "seriously innovative features" over the past decade anyways, though? I mean, even before that.

Realistically, the most ambitious and innovative MMO's were games like Vanguard, which while it tanked due to management being incompetent, would never have been a broad success anyways. Most innovation is incremental, you don't get games reinventing the wheel often. Hell, WoW was an incremental improvement on the EQ1 formula. AoC added in the most dynamic combat system of any MMO in the past decade. Most MMO's have their small "niche" where they innovate, but few bother to do so on a broad scale, it's too risky.

In the pre-WoW MMO era, were MMO's rife with innovative ideas and features all the time?

I can't think of a seriously novel experience in the last couple of years of MMO's. Something like star citizen/E-Dangerous are aiming at might have enough new features to cover their respective niche like WoW has to fantasy RPG. There's the likes of planetside 2 and destiny doing something like a twitch shooter MMO (less-so in destiny's case). Archage is blending mmo with sandbox RPG's (as far as I read it). Don't know what else can be brought into the MMO space. I'm sure we have racing sims done massively?

Planetside 2 is simply an extension of what SOE did with Planetside, and Destiny is about as innovative as a CoD sequel. It's very firmly rooted in the design and trends that have been a part of shooters for the past half decade+

ArcheAge does a few new things, but realistically the biggest "new" thing it does is introduce to a broader audience many sandbox elements that have been common to sandbox games for years, simply because it wraps them up in the blanket of a theme park to help make entering and understanding the game easier for most MMO folks.

As for racing, there have been a few racing/racing-esque MMO's (Auto Assault, for example), but the bigger budget ones like The Crew are on their way.

VR will probably be where it starts getting interesting again (which E-Dangerous and Star Cit are scratching the surface of I guess).

I suppose, but I still find VR to be little more than a gimmick, especially given all the additional peripherals needed to allow for any meaningful interaction with it. Otherwise it's just adding full 3d/VR to existing games without that change actually affecting the gameplay or game design in the slightest.

[Ferocity]

A lot of posters here presume that if MMO has small amount of subs - it is failure by definition, which is wrong.

There seems to be less big name MMO's with seriously innovative features though. The market isn't shrinking but it seems to have matured and got rather stuck in comfortable rut (that not enough people are attracted to).

Just recently wrote a nice post on this on other forum. It IS the "innovation" which hurts new MMOs. Look at Wildstar. They could bring Adventure/Arcade as MMO, but instead they decided to "innovate" by mixing Cata+ WoW with attunements in mix and tons of Arcade elements.

For MMO to not be heavily criticized, they first need to be clear for themselves with genre/subgenre. Like with Wildstar - drawn-out attunements, etc. are usually interesting for people who like long and slower paced sessions, meanwhile arcade combat is more for people who want some quick rush of adrenaline, and can't sit on one place for long. Basics of psychology.

After getting clear on genre, subgenre, developers should simply polish aspects, give them new unusual depth (maybe at expense of depth in other aspects). Example - Shining Force II (as all-around classic tactical RPG) vs Disgaea series. Disgaea didn't have all-around world, but it added geo-"units", which change the way of interaction with terrain. Were those geo-units from Adventure or Arcade genre? No. Those were simply terrain effects with much more depth added to them. Was it innovation? No - it was creativity.

But what happens now, developers release MMOs, which are neither RPGs, not really Action/Arcade too. Just mish-mash of various elements from multiple genres.

I'd legit throw double / triple a monthly subscription price to play everquest 1 with updated graphics. Imo that game still hasn't been beat for sheer quality and quantity. There's more to do and collect in EQ1 then there is in any modern MMO.

That was already done in form of EverQuest II (well, not exactly the same as EQ1, but what concerns collections, amount of content, etc. - it is quite on par with EQ1). And what do you know - it shares subscription with EQ1 and other SOE games:) Most people ignore it because even EQ2 is slightly older than WoW, nvm EQ1. Some don't even know about it with all those talks about yet another WoWClone #376.

[Edge-]

Just recently wrote a nice post on this on other forum. It IS the "innovation" which hurts new MMOs. Look at Wildstar. They could bring Adventure/Arcade as MMO, but instead they decided to "innovate" by mixing Cata+ WoW with attunements in mix and tons of Arcade elements.

That's not innovation, that's just a poor design decision.

That was already done in form of EverQuest II (well, not exactly the same as EQ1, but what concerns collections, amount of content, etc. - it is quite on par with EQ1). And what do you know - it shares subscription with EQ1 and other SOE games Most people ignore it because even EQ2 is slightly older than WoW, nvm EQ1. Some don't even know about it with all those talks about yet another WoWClone #376.

EQ2, especially as it exists now, is absolutely not EQ1 with updated graphics. The design has altered and much of the game has been "WoWified" in an attempt to appeal to more players and get them invested in the game. Often enough, that design really clashes with the core design of the game because it's either contradictory or not fully implemented.

For example, they added in an automated LFG system. Great! But it failed. Why? Because dungeons, even the lower level ones, aren't designed in a straight forward manner so that a group of strangers unfamiliar with the layouts/bosses/secrets can make their way through it. So you end up with failed group after failed group. That's not to mention your group could queue into raids at low level, meaning you were screwed from the start. Leave the dungeon? You're at the dungeon exist, often a place you are totally unfamiliar with, leaving you pretty lost.

So by trying to modernize the game and add in modern features, they actually sorta broke the game and made it even more of a headache. And all that is if you can even find a group with that system. I've looked multiple times but after hours in queue still never popped (as a healer, even).

[RoKPaNda]

I don't know that it's ignorance/stupidity/sheer incompetence. I'm sure in some cases it is, but in most of the mainstream MMOs since '05 or so I've felt like it's less incompetence and more of an attempt at cashing in on the success of WoW. WoW made the MMO genre more appealing than it was previously. It's not like MMOs were this wildly popular thing before WoW, they really weren't, they appealed to a very small group of gamers. WoW changed that by doing a few things correctly. WoW was much more casual friendly believe it or not, it built off of an existing franchise, and the art style was wildly different from anything available at the time which gave it more of a lighthearted breath of fresh air kind of feel. It wasn't generic fantasy robe and wizard hat / knight in shining armor game #5892835.

A lot of the MMOs that followed the success of WoW really didn't feel complete at all, and to me at least most of them felt like "Well, WoW is popular, people will pay $15/mo, so yeah lets try that!" - Sell the box, sell a couple months worth of subs to the users, go F2P, sell hats and XP boosts and shit, really take advantage of the customer. I felt that a lot of western MMOs were designed without a care in the world whether the MMO would be successful beyond the first couple of months.

Not to say that there aren't MMOs (Wildstar) where the devs wanted to create a long term game that would be wildly popular and ended up being completely out of touch with the MMO audience. Or relied too heavily on an existing franchise (TSO) for support rather than making the MMO itself more appealing.

That's not innovation, that's just a poor design decision.

Most attempts at innovation are poor design, likely born from the idea that devs need to be innovative. Or to word it better, most of the things that come across to us users as poor design were attempts at being innovative.

[Edge-]

Most attempts at innovation are poor design, likely born from the idea that devs need to be innovative. Or to word it better, most of the things that come across to us users as poor design were attempts at being innovative.

Entirely subjective, and I'd disagree. I think the combat system in AoC, which I already mentioned, is absolutely brilliant and easily the most interesting and engaging combat system designed in a MMO in the past decade+

I think the way the Diplomacy system in Vanguard functioned (when it actually worked) was one of the most interesting mini-games that actually served a definite purpose within the game (unlocking additional quests etc.)

I think the truly classless system of TSW is fantastic, and while there are still trinity-based archetypes, is a model that more games should use.

There's plenty of innovation that works, I'd argue almost as much as what doesn't. But that's the risk, innovative ideas aren't proven and they can bomb. Trying new things is risky as hell, which is why few games, especially ludicrously expensive MMO's, are willing to make too many big gambles.

[Deleted]

Fools learn from experience the wise learn from history

[Deleted]

What history? The MMO genre is barely 3 generations old!

(MUDs, UO/Everquest, WoW)

[Tierbook]

I'd say ESO is doing decently, it's had 4 updates so far and future content is looking amazing.

[stellvia]

I mostly agree with the OP, but the reasons for failure for some of the notable ones actually boil down to things not directly related to charging a subscription.

WAR should have survived fairly well in the same niche that DAOC did back in the day: PvE/PvP hybrid that keeps players subscribed for the territory war in a similar vein to capsuleers fighting over 0.0 space in EVE. But they were woefully slow at addressing class balance issues, which are critical in a PvP-oriented game. (Knight of the Blazing Sun was disgustingly OP for how long? Was definitely over a year)

TERA failed as a subscription (ENG version) because they decided to push out the current build rather than the original game and ease into the expansion material every 3-4 months. So everyone just breezed right past 3 expansions worth of content to the current KR end-game. They also launched without having PvP arena and battlegrounds implemented yet, which was incredibly stupid.

If Wildstar drops to F2P, I can't see how one would blame it on the combat not being novel enough, etc. And not that they had raids so over-tuned that not even guilds like Death and Taxes wanted to deal with it. And 40 people was honestly fine when raid bosses had no enrage and weren't tuned very tightly -- but trying to logistically manage that kind of a roster and mechanics with the tight tuning of something like a WoW hard-mode boss is just obnoxious.

ESO just wasn't a good idea, period. At least in WoW you are all just a hero ... in ESO everyone is supposed to be the Dragonborn or such, and the cognitive dissonance involved with everyone being The Dude while grouped with every other The Dude, gets rather silly. And more importantly, Elder Scrolls combat is far too clunky for a group/MMO environment. It's even worse than say, if you made a Dark Souls MMO in that regard.

I would say the core issue with the MMO market these days with regard to subscriptions/success is this: The core MMO player market is still mostly being served by WoW. But when they tire of raiding in WoW and whatnot, they're not jumping to another MMO, they're often just quitting the (paid) MMO market entirely. Meanwhile the "bottom is the limit" with regards to the casual player market that just wants to sit down and turn their brain off for some disposable entertainment. There are a myriad+1 slipshod asian F2P MMOs offering "11111-tab-11111" gameplay for that demographic.

If anything is going to be the path to future success in MMOs, IMHO it will be gameplay like EQnext or Star Citizen -- building your game on a base of "sandbox" player-driven interaction, that also offers theme park content updates. Inculcating that sense of ownership in the world/your character is what will keep people around. (Granted SC will be a hybrid sub that also allows for private shards)

On a sidenote: Most of the successful F2P games still offer what amounts to a monthly fee to bypass all the F2P restrictions. Yes, the subscribe rate is only a fraction of the overall players, but more above that also buy at least some items at times. And great content updates aren't cheap: F2P games are woefully underserved in the content quality/rate sphere IMHO. (GW2 has frequent updates, but small story-driven content is incredibly cheap/quick to produce. And nobody actually knows how much money/if any GW2 is actually making. So I can't see how people can call it successful from a business standpoint at least. NCsoft has deep pockets.)

[Mysterymask]

Now then... have any of you considered that this JUST MIGHT BE the case with Wildstar and other MMOs mentioned here?
Or hell! Did any of you actually thought of those MMO existance as anything else but money making venture?

God! People these days!

....If you think ANYTHING in a LARGELY capitalistic society is anything else but a money make venture you are living in a fantasy world.

[Edge-]

The core MMO player market is still mostly being served by WoW.

If you're looking to label a single game, then sure. But the reality is that the overwhelming majority of the MMO market is not playing WoW. No other game (at least in the West, not 100% on Asia) has as large a population (specifically, paying population), but WoW does not have a majority of anything if you were to compare it to the rest of the market.

[Deleted]

....If you think ANYTHING in a LARGELY capitalistic society is anything else but a money make venture you are living in a fantasy world.

I guess it is better to live in a fantasy world then to live in a miserable money driven such as yours.

[Keile]

You are kinda incorrect about the UO housing.

If you did not enter your house in a set period of time, the house would eventually collapse. The house would vanish, and all your belongings would be left on the ground for anyone to take. So if someone placed, say a CASTLE that took up a huge section of land, and then quit the game eventually that castle would just vanish leaving all the stuff on the ground free for the taking and the plot usable by anyone willing to clean it up.

I remember my bro waiting to take someones plot that had left theirs sitting there and never entered it. Eventually it did collapse...and he spent time moving all the junk off the ground so he could place his house.

He finally got the lot clear and....some random ass comes by and quickly places his house down as my bro was ready to place his......yeah...

On the flip side, this wasn't my bros only house, he was one of the lucky few to basically have a house INSIDE the Guard Zone of Minoc right outside of the mine. Originally you could put houses there, but they quickly made it unavailable. He got lucky and a friend put a house there and gave it to him. Basically gave them the #1 position for a house with vendors/blacksmithing stuff for sale....